Will Darcy Ward Be A World Champion In The Future?

[stratton]

No, you're starting to get as confused as Parsley now. The fact is he got a selection despite not qualifying so it's no different than if he'd got injured, he would have got another chance through selection. In the old World Final system, how many riders went out through injury in a qualifyer? Hardly any got seeded to the World Final. So yes it would be a travesty if Ward got injured and wasn't selected, but he was.

Im not confused, my opinion like parsloes we are entitled to that why do you get on your high horse.If injured on a one off qualifier,riders new that excepted it.All im saying is maybe the system could be improved.Parsloes point like me is he dosent want to see the same old faces every year yes if the system is a fairer playing field maybe if good anough a few young uns will get in.At the end of the day i want to see the best riders in the world in it,ie]if ward hadnt got in would that of been good for speedway i dont think so.

[foreverblue]

No, you're starting to get as confused as Parsley now. The fact is he got a selection despite not qualifying so it's no different than if he'd got injured, he would have got another chance through selection. In the old World Final system, how many riders went out through injury in a qualifyer? Hardly any got seeded to the World Final. So yes it would be a travesty if Ward got injured and wasn't selected, but he was.

Surely that is partly what the wild card system is there for.

[orion]

Ha, ha, ha!

You've never ONCE answered ANY of the points made about the fact that the GP series is largely a closed-shop massively favouring those in it... This is the whole point about how unfair the current series is compared to the previous proper World Championship system..

I don't expect you to start now - coz frankly there's nothing you can say to contradict that point as it's an absolute fact!!

 

 

The old world championship system was totaly unfair for a start not once were the top 16 best riders in it as it allowed rubbish riders into it if they came from a certain area in the world plus if you got injured you were out as well .

 

When it comes to being unfair the old system was miles ahead you can have one ef and not be able and that would cost you any chance of winning ..the system they used now nearly always give us a true world champion .

[iris123]

Im not confused, my opinion like parsloes we are entitled to that why do you get on your high horse.If injured on a one off qualifier,riders new that excepted it.All im saying is maybe the system could be improved.Parsloes point like me is he dosent want to see the same old faces every year yes if the system is a fairer playing field maybe if good anough a few young uns will get in.At the end of the day i want to see the best riders in the world in it,ie]if ward hadnt got in would that of been good for speedway i dont think so.

I don't know how on earth you can say you agree with Parsloes and then use Darcy Ward to back up your argument He is exactly the opposite.He didn't qualify and because he is young,exciting and a new kid on the block he has been given a place in the series ahead of riders who did better than him in the qualifiers.It wouldn't have mattered one iota if he was injured in July or August or ........If we use a qualifying system like the good old days Darcy wouldn't have had a sniff.I don't quite see the appeal of the old style quali system.You just have to look at what happened back then and look what happens practically every year at the moment.The riders who tend to get through the qualis aren't the bums on seat type and are generally not youngsters.They are the Bjarne,PePe,Walasek and Ulameks of this world And they get through because let's face it,they are better than most of the others.I tend to get the feeling that you and Parsloes would love to see the World Title contested by Lewis Bridger and Joonas Kylmakorpi and Davey Watt and Simon Gustafsson and Dino Kovacic or someone.....

Just this year we had one of the youngest ever riders in the GP series and World Finals.Mikkel B.Jensen.We have also had Darcy and we have seen Jonasson for instance.I am a big fan of Mikkel B and have been for a number of years now.He was chuffed to bits to get a ride and made a very good impression.It was an experience that will help him for sure in the future.Great for his sponsors as well But there is no way Mikkel is ready to challenge for the World title.Sure he has other priorities at this moment.These youngsters have to build solid foundations before they make the big step up.Talking to one young Danish rider in his second season.He owes his father quite a tidy sum already since he went "professional" and he is one of the top talents in the country.Like i said before it is no wonder they take on commitments in foreign leagues.It pays well if you make a success and you learn from it.There is though the risk of taking on too much too young and burning out.Look at Risager for instance.You could also look at the generation behind Adams,Crump,Gollob and Hancock.Look at the likes of hans Andersen and Andreas Jonsson.They are the guys who should really have been on top of their game and top of the world now.But maybe because of all the pressure in so many leagues they just haven't made it.It seems to me that you and Parsloes are wanting some young kids,just for the sake of new faces to follow in their footsteps

[Ghostwalker]

Iris, while i agree with you Andreas Jonsson is not a good example since did his best season ever this year. Finished 2nd in the GPs and being the best rider in Elitserien and also top 5 in Ekstraliga.

Hampel finished 2nd in the Gps in 2010 and was 3rd this year and very consistent in the leagues. But you're spot on regarding Hans though.

[iris123]

Iris, while i agree with you Andreas Jonsson is not a good example since did his best season ever this year. Finished 2nd in the GPs and being the best rider in Elitserien and also top 5 in Ekstraliga.

Hampel finished 2nd in the Gps in 2010 and was 3rd this year and very consistent in the leagues. But you're spot on regarding Hans though.

Yes i know.I did mention Hampel as one of the riders who got a WC because of his U21 title and took a while to get to grips with the series.I used AJ really because by now he sort of should of had a title under his belt.Go back 5 years or so and he looked like he was one of the guys who would make the step up.He has really disappointed since.Apart from this year.But he still hasn't got a title and it is possible he never will go any better than second.That is why i used him.Him and the riders of his generation should have been swapping the title between themselves.In a way if Parsloes has trouble with the oldies winning,that is where the problem lies.Not with BSI not picking more teenagers or kicking out the older riders.But maybe it will happen in the next few years that AJ,Jarek and Bjerre will step up and win some titles.Then Parsloes and Sidney will probably moan about that as well.

Edited October 18, 2011 by iris123

[stratton]

I don't know how on earth you can say you agree with Parsloes and then use Darcy Ward to back up your argument He is exactly the opposite.He didn't qualify and because he is young,exciting and a new kid on the block he has been given a place in the series ahead of riders who did better than him in the qualifiers.It wouldn't have mattered one iota if he was injured in July or August or ........If we use a qualifying system like the good old days Darcy wouldn't have had a sniff.I don't quite see the appeal of the old style quali system.You just have to look at what happened back then and look what happens practically every year at the moment.The riders who tend to get through the qualis aren't the bums on seat type and are generally not youngsters.They are the Bjarne,PePe,Walasek and Ulameks of this world And they get through because let's face it,they are better than most of the others.I tend to get the feeling that you and Parsloes would love to see the World Title contested by Lewis Bridger and Joonas Kylmakorpi and Davey Watt and Simon Gustafsson and Dino Kovacic or someone.....

Just this year we had one of the youngest ever riders in the GP series and World Finals.Mikkel B.Jensen.We have also had Darcy and we have seen Jonasson for instance.I am a big fan of Mikkel B and have been for a number of years now.He was chuffed to bits to get a ride and made a very good impression.It was an experience that will help him for sure in the future.Great for his sponsors as well But there is no way Mikkel is ready to challenge for the World title.Sure he has other priorities at this moment.These youngsters have to build solid foundations before they make the big step up.Talking to one young Danish rider in his second season.He owes his father quite a tidy sum already since he went "professional" and he is one of the top talents in the country.Like i said before it is no wonder they take on commitments in foreign leagues.It pays well if you make a success and you learn from it.There is though the risk of taking on too much too young and burning out.Look at Risager for instance.You could also look at the generation behind Adams,Crump,Gollob and Hancock.Look at the likes of hans Andersen and Andreas Jonsson.They are the guys who should really have been on top of their game and top of the world now.But maybe because of all the pressure in so many leagues they just haven't made it.It seems to me that you and Parsloes are wanting some young kids,just for the sake of new faces to follow in their footsteps

If the kids are not good anough, fair anough could there be a fairer way to get in maybe?as for jonsson and andersen they havent won it because they havent been good anough.maybe jonsson can do it still is good anough.pressure collins mauger lee michanek olsen were all over the world in there day doing loads of meetings so the pressure always been there. if anything it was harder then.going back to the gps if the best riders are in it thats great there are some things that could be changed with debate of course.

[iris123]

collins mauger lee michanek olsen were all over the world in there day doing loads of meetings so the pressure always been there. if anything it was harder then.

How was it harder back then?Michanek rode in Britain and Sweden in the leagues.How many leagues did the others ride in?They rode on the continent,mainly in Germany at the weekends and it was a bit of a picnic.You can't compare those 'open' meetings to the pressure of riding in 3 or 4 leagues.They also done the Longtrack world championship,because there wasn't the opportunities there are today.And now the riders have 11 world finals,not just the one and some quali meetings where you only had to finish in the top 8 or 11 to get through to the next round

Edited October 18, 2011 by iris123

[Parsloes 1928 nearly]

I have to say that I don't think that SOME of your posts are as totally non-sensiscal as others seem to feel.

 

BUT this one takes the biscuit for being the most deranged I have seen in a long time.

 

It is your contention that the riders who stay in the series by finishing in the top eight of the GP "HAVE NOT HAD TO QUALIFY". That is bonkers.

 

They have competed in 11 separate Grand Prix over 60 plus races in about eight countries over the course of a six month period against all the best riders in the world. And scored enough points over that time to be in the top eight so that they QUALIFY for the following year's series.

 

How on earth do you make that 'NOT HAVING to QUALIFY', for good ness sake!

 

No World Finalists of ANY past vintage have had to 'QUALIFY' by such rigorous means.

 

Look, of the 15 riders who started out in this year's GP, ELEVEN of them have 'qualified' directly for next year's (ie not needed to qualify by other means).. The top eight (yes staying in the top eight is tough but one's only competing with a further seven to do so...!). And this year those who finished 9th., 10th. and 11th. have all also been allowed back in!!

Now there MAY have been occasions when the 9th. place for example DIDN'T qualify automatically (ie given seeded berth in following year's Series) - someone who knows about these things can tell us... - but I doubt it's happened often: so effectively one can afford to finish 9th., 10th and even 11th. and have a good chance of being back in...

 

This is MASSIVELY different from having a proper qualifying system open to all... Surely to goodness whatever your views, people can see this!!!

 

Good points have been made about the WF system of old in which riders had good runs in it even from a lower division... So it's NOT about me naming names, as Impartial One wants me to do it's about having a proper chance given to whoever is in a position to excel...

 

Whatever you say, to have just four max spaces available (under the model used this year) for such riders is miles and miles away from being good enough and this has fundamentally changed (IMO for the worse...) our sport's World Championship.

[Grand Central]

If the kids are not good anough, fair anough could there be a fairer way to get in maybe?

 

 

I really don't understand this.

 

Back in June there were FIVE qualification meetings held at which EIGHTY riders who wanted to have access to participate in the World Championship and get to the 2012 GP all competed. They were whittled down by an open and fair on-track qualification procedure through three race-offs and then the Challenge Final in Vetlanda at which four riders of the original eighty gained qualification to the 2012 series.

 

HOW MUCH FAIRER CAN A SYSTEM BE?

 

The fact is that youngsters like Darcy and others tried and FAILED TO QUALIFY by exactly the same route as 'oldies' like Bjarne Pedersen actually did QUALIFY.

 

Why has anyone got a problem with such a clear, simple qualification system that ANY aspiring rider in the world who has serious GP aspraritions could enter.

 

Of course, they can only actually qualify if they are good enough.

 

BSI's wildcards are just an added alternative that is their descrection but will people stop claiming that there isn't a fair qualification system in place for those who want to use it. There is.

[Grand Central]

Look, of the 15 riders who started out in this year's GP, ELEVEN of them have 'qualified' directly for next year's (ie not needed to qualify by other means).. The top eight (yes staying in the top eight is tough but one's only competing with a further seven to do so...!). And this year those who finished 9th., 10th. and 11th. have all also been allowed back in!!

Now there MAY have been occasions when the 9th. place for example DIDN'T qualify automatically (ie given seeded berth in following year's Series) - someone who knows about these things can tell us... - but I doubt it's happened often: so effectively one can afford to finish 9th., 10th and even 11th. and have a good chance of being back in...

 

This is MASSIVELY different from having a proper qualifying system open to all... Surely to goodness whatever your views, people can see this!!!

 

 

I had one go at this discussion with you.

 

I drop out straight away after this.

 

If I went on I fear I would lose the will to live.

[salty]

Come on Parsloes! The qualifying system is open for all ( albeit a Brit would have to qualify by having a good British Final the previous year). I admit that only having 3 riders able to qualify is too low and I'm not entirely happy with the nominations going to riders who have finished in 9th, 10th and 11th in the GP's.

Personally I would prefer a return to the old style GP challenge where the bottom 7 in the GP's would race against 9 qualifiers. Unfortunately, I don't see the nominations method being done away with as it allows the organisers flexibility to tailor the field for whatever purposes (generally eonomic) that they see fit.

Regarding the system suiting youngsters - in recent years Emil, Tai and now Darcy have all been given a free pass into the circus. That wouldn't have happened in the past.

 

I think the biggest issue is that the expense of competing in the GP's is now so great that it is hard for newcomers to compete with the long established riders in terms of their support teams. Twas ever thus, Mauger had more money to throw at bikes than most, but I think the effect is magnified with the series being over 11 meetings.

Edited October 18, 2011 by salty

[stratton]

How was it harder back then?Michanek rode in Britain and Sweden in the leagues.How many leagues did the others ride in?They rode on the continent,mainly in Germany at the weekends and it was a bit of a picnic.You can't compare those 'open' meetings to the pressure of riding in 3 or 4 leagues.They also done the Longtrack world championship,because there wasn't the opportunities there are today.And now the riders have 11 world finals,not just the one and some quali meetings where you only had to finish in the top 8 or 11 to get through to the next round

Bit of a picnic, Mauger got to being a millionaire by riding loads of meetings what was it 1963 to 1984.?all the others i named had full careers could not always take a plane then like now.Mauger Briggs Michanek Olsen Collins ect you would be surprised how many meetings they rode in loads.But they chose that path because they loved it.Also some of them did there own aquipment preparation most now just turn up and ride.Bit of a picnic no way .

[Parsloes 1928 nearly]

Good god... The qualifying process allows at best exactly HOW many into the competition..? Four, is it..?... If people honestly can't see what's wrong with that then I do, in truth, give up...

Defend the GP system as much as you like but for god's sake recognise that it is the perfect way to maintain the status quo and immeasurably more difficult to break into than to fall out of!!!

As a matter of interest what is it about this that so many of you fail to understand!!

[iris123]

Bit of a picnic, Mauger got to being a millionaire by riding loads of meetings what was it 1963 to 1984.?all the others i named had full careers could not always take a plane then like now.Mauger Briggs Michanek Olsen Collins ect you would be surprised how many meetings they rode in loads.But they chose that path because they loved it.Also some of them did there own aquipment preparation most now just turn up and ride.Bit of a picnic no way .

I wouldn't be surprised by how many meetings they rode in.By picnic,i meant specifically as it was in that sentence and in no other,the 'open' meetings on the continent,mainly Germany.Sure there was some hard races,but it wasn't high pressure like GPs or Polish/Swedish league.You just have to watch some of the video of those days.Ok Egon Müller was a fairly relaxed guy,but he was also competitive and beat all of the guys you mention.But look at his video footage and those meetings were a laugh,joke and a sing song with some races thrown into the mix.Just look at the Mauger/Briggo world series.They had riders like Bart Harkins tagging along.Now,no disrespect to Bertola(i saw enough of him at Plough Lane)as i know he uses this forum,but he was about 4th in the Dons averages at the time.

 

Let's face it you don't have an argument,so are just arguing for the sake of it i think.I will set you(and Parsloes if he is up to it) a task.Tell us just what system you want to see.And in an ideal world tell me the 16 riders you would love to make it into your World Final.Hope this doesn't just include Ricky Kling because he is your favourite rider or Cameron Woodward because you think he is a very nice guy

Edited October 18, 2011 by iris123

[orion]

Good god... The qualifying process allows at best exactly HOW many into the competition..? Four, is it..?... If people honestly can't see what's wrong with that then I do, in truth, give up...

Defend the GP system as much as you like but for god's sake recognise that it is the perfect way to maintain the status quo and immeasurably more difficult to break into than to fall out of!!!

As a matter of interest what is it about this that so many of you fail to understand!!

 

 

No one fails to understand they just think your wrong ....we have a system now that without doubt has the best riders in the world championship what else could anyone ask for .

[WIE-JA]

 

 

Good points have been made about the WF system of old in which riders had good runs in it even from a lower division.

 

 

You mean like Carl Stonehewer who had about 3 seasons in the GP series and rode for Workington in the Premier League?

[stratton]

I wouldn't be surprised by how many meetings they rode in.By picnic,i meant specifically as it was in that sentence and in no other,the 'open' meetings on the continent,mainly Germany.Sure there was some hard races,but it wasn't high pressure like GPs or Polish/Swedish league.You just have to watch some of the video of those days.Ok Egon Müller was a fairly relaxed guy,but he was also competitive and beat all of the guys you mention.But look at his video footage and those meetings were a laugh,joke and a sing song with some races thrown into the mix.Just look at the Mauger/Briggo world series.They had riders like Bart Harkins tagging along.Now,no disrespect to Bertola(i saw enough of him at Plough Lane)as i know he uses this forum,but he was about 4th in the Dons averages at the time.

 

Let's face it you don't have an argument,so are just arguing for the sake of it i think.I will set you(and Parsloes if he is up to it) a task.Tell us just what system you want to see.And in an ideal world tell me the 16 riders you would love to make it into your World Final.Hope this doesn't just include Ricky Kling because he is your favourite rider or Cameron Woodward because you think he is a very nice guy

What an arrogant comment, its not an arguement its an opinion a difference i think.Parsloes i dont no him from Adam but hes entitled to his opinion like i am whats the problem in that.A new system i havent the answers [i dont pretend to know everything unlike some people}.People are not always going to agree with you it dosent mean the other person is argueing for the sake of it do you understand that consept.

[iris123]

What an arrogant comment, its not an arguement its an opinion a difference i think.Parsloes i dont no him from Adam but hes entitled to his opinion like i am whats the problem in that.A new system i havent the answers [i dont pretend to know everything unlike some people}.People are not always going to agree with you it dosent mean the other person is argueing for the sake of it do you understand that consept.

Ok,so you don't know what system you would like to see.But what about the other points i have raised?What were the high pressure meetings the likes of Mauger and Collins were riding in so often apart from the British league?What 16 riders would you like to see in "your" world final?Tell me "your Opinion"

[HenryW]

Good god... The qualifying process allows at best exactly HOW many into the competition..? Four, is it..?... If people honestly can't see what's wrong with that then I do, in truth, give up...

Defend the GP system as much as you like but for god's sake recognise that it is the perfect way to maintain the status quo and immeasurably more difficult to break into than to fall out of!!!

As a matter of interest what is it about this that so many of you fail to understand!!

 

Yes, I agree that it's probably harder to get into the series than to fall out of it. However, that is because the best riders don't generally just suddenly become bad. You seem to be arguing that the top 15 should be ever changing. That doesn't make sense to me as the top 15 in the World doesn't actually change very much year to year, and the averages in the big leagues backs this up.

 

The riders in the World Final under the old system changed more often but that tended to be through the nature of the qualifying system employed. 1 bad day in any of the rounds, or an unfortunately timed injury, could easily see one of the best going out, leading to an inferior product in the World Final. That, IMO, was more unfair than what we have now.

 

Just taking 2 examples from the latter years of the 1 off World Championship:

• In 1992 Hans Nielsen didn't make the Final (3rd in 91, 2nd in 93)
  
• In 1993 Tommy Knudsen didn't make the Final (5th in 92, 5th in 94)
  

Both of those riders were CLEARLY in the top 16 in the World those years, yet failed to make the Final.

 

No matter how bad you think the current system may be, surely you can see that it is better than a system that allows something like that to happen, unless you are actually not interested in finding the best rider in the World as a Champion.

 

I'm not, and never have been, arguing that the current system is perfect (I'd prefer a return to a 24 rider series) but it's better than what used to be there when it comes to finding who is genuinely the best rider in the World...and isn't that the point of a World Championship?