Grand Central Posted October 15, 2011 Report Share Posted October 15, 2011 (edited) Trying to take the fractious childish element out of matters. Can we just establish where this thread has led us. Will Darcy Ward be World Champion in the future? ... A few people think he will, and a few people don't think that he will. No surprise there really as none of us are clairvoyant. Perhaps, a more productive topic of discussion might be on 'What would it take to improve Darcy's chance of becoming World Champion?'. Several people have pointed out the Grand Prix seemes to have increased the longevity of International Class Speedway riders. Some people seem to think this a bad thing; others do not. But why? Some people feel that the GP system has made it more difficult for new talent to jump to the top, whilst others have given arguments that the old one-off World Final was hardly much better. Is it just the same or is it for different reasons? I just wonder ... is a lot of this not down to the influence of the TEAM that surrounds riders in the GP today. Aren't Greg, Jason, Nicki and the like able to sustain the top class level of performance needed over the long series because of the team that does so much more of the work than in the past. It's my feeeling that the newcomers to the GP scene must be totally outclassed before they even reach the tapes with the GROSSLY different level of backroom that the best established men now have in place. The days of well-meaning Dads in the pits and mechanics that were schoolmates has no place in the GPs anymore, does it? Wouldn't the quickest and easiest way to get someone like Darcy to 'break through' be to get that TEAM in place as soon as possible ... and I don't mean a just a bunch of Aussies that he is friends with, or those that are totally good enough for Elite League ... I mean a really top professional team with years of GP experience who can do EVERYTHING else to a modern GP standard, at the track and away from it. Then Darcy could just do what he does best ... but with the right guidance. Edited October 15, 2011 by Grand Central Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parsloes 1928 nearly Posted October 15, 2011 Report Share Posted October 15, 2011 Okay - I take it that the majority of posters on here are more than happy with the way things are... Must just be me who'd prefer to see the odds stacked just a little better in favour of the young & up-and-coming as opposed to the old and established But I would just say this: - it's an absolute FACT that the World Championship atm is being dominated by an older aged range of riders than EVER before. Throwing in Ivan's geriatric win in '79 ain't gonna change the fact that back in the days of the WF it WAS easier to arrive on the scene and break through to the very top: egs are not always of the very young (like Lee) - check out how long it took John Louis to get from convertee from 'Scrambling' to second division Speedway to 4th. in a WF... What was it, a couple of years!!) - and it's also an absolute mathematical FACT that it's far easier to stay in the GPs once in than it is to qualify.. 8 out of 15 guaranteed; though in reality another two or sometimes three more of less guaranteed through the seeded route. Come 9th. or 10th..? Oh give 'em another chance... Be British, yes well you're needed... So it is without question more difficult to break in. I wish those of you who fundamentally disagree with me would at least recognise those two facts.. Then you MIGHT acknowledge the frustration the combo of the two is likely to give to young riders surveying the current WC situation and comtemplating if there's ever going to be a chance for them. Henry made a good point Valid reasons for older riders dominating like never before? 2. The sport is more expensive, professional and technical than ever before, ensuring that experience and investment are much more important, which obviously the younger riders don't have as much of. This I don't doubt is a good reason too... And if so, that's a big shame ... As the sport I first loved back in the '70s was meant to be about the skill of the man on the bike not the superior quality of the bike and its back-up team in the pits... The latter what was other (inferior imo) motor sports went for... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PHILIPRISING Posted October 15, 2011 Report Share Posted October 15, 2011 IS there a better or more skilful rider around than the new World Champion? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iris123 Posted October 15, 2011 Report Share Posted October 15, 2011 This I don't doubt is a good reason too... And if so, that's a big shame ... As the sport I first loved back in the '70s was meant to be about the skill of the man on the bike not the superior quality of the bike and its back-up team in the pits... The latter what was other (inferior imo) motor sports went for... For sure things have changed a great deal since those days back in the 70s Parsloes.Everything has really.But right back in those early days in the 30s workshops were set up by teams such as Wembley and all the bikes were checked up and tuned up to give their riders an advantage.It isn't as though technical advances have just happened since GP days.Mauger was always looking out for any technical advance that would help give him another advantage.Egon Müller i think was another who tried to get the best.You could also look at Gundersen having Olsen in his team.Long gone are the days when riders turned up with one bike on the back of their car.People in general,not just sportsmen and women are fitter now at a later age than back in the 60s and 70s.But like it has been pointed out,there has been a fast track into the GPs for a fair number of World U21 champs.Sure it is hard to hit the ground running,when most around them have been doing the series for years.That doesn't mean that these guys are at the top because of their bikes or their team.They have to go out there and do the physical and mental part of the job themselves.And as you can see year after year they can battle with young upstarts like Emil and Holder. I too did love the days of one off Finals when Wembley was packed out.But the GPs have moved speedway into the 21stC.It is a totally different experience as a fan to go to one of these GPs.It is just so professionally run,that you can't really compare it to a normal speedway meeting.And it does produce some great racing at times,even if most of the riders are almost twice as old as some of the track reserves or in the case of Mikkel B,more than twice as old Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parsloes 1928 nearly Posted October 15, 2011 Report Share Posted October 15, 2011 I too did love the days of one off Finals when Wembley was packed out.But the GPs have moved speedway into the 21stC.It is a totally different experience as a fan to go to one of these GPs.It is just so professionally run,that you can't really compare it to a normal speedway meeting.And it does produce some great racing at times,even if most of the riders are almost twice as old as some of the track reserves or in the case of Mikkel B,more than twice as old I agree and, as you know, I completely respect your opinions but all I'd say is that yes, it has taken the sport into the 21st. century by mimicing things like F1 but whereas F1 has probably never been in a healthier state, our sport is not exactly thriving; and maybe, just maybe, there is another way and that is to take a pause, consider the options and maybe look to what used to work as a possible option.. When the sport is dead we'll certainly have plenty of time on our hands to reflect on it..!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ImpartialOne Posted October 15, 2011 Report Share Posted October 15, 2011 I agree and, as you know, I completely respect your opinions but all I'd say is that yes, it has taken the sport into the 21st. century by mimicing things like F1 but whereas F1 has probably never been in a healthier state, our sport is not exactly thriving; and maybe, just maybe, there is another way and that is to take a pause, consider the options and maybe look to what used to work as a possible option.. When the sport is dead we'll certainly have plenty of time on our hands to reflect on it..!! But the GPs are working. It's the British scene that's dying on it's arse and we know who to blame for that. It's certainly not IMG that is trying to kill the sport. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parsloes 1928 nearly Posted October 15, 2011 Report Share Posted October 15, 2011 But the GPs are working. It's the British scene that's dying on it's arse and we know who to blame for that. It's certainly not IMG that is trying to kill the sport. Okay a fair point. But the British scene would benefit from a greater connection generally between the World Championship and the sport in this country... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ImpartialOne Posted October 15, 2011 Report Share Posted October 15, 2011 Okay a fair point. But the British scene would benefit from a greater connection generally between the World Championship and the sport in this country... What do you think could be done to achieve that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parsloes 1928 nearly Posted October 15, 2011 Report Share Posted October 15, 2011 What do you think could be done to achieve that? Well, obviously from my angle I'm going to say revert to a season-long WC system which involves qualifiers at GB tracks... But as that's unlikely - it would help if the GB GP could at some point be a decisive one (ie near or at the end of the series...) - at least next year it will be a fair bit later than previouis Cardiff ones. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ImpartialOne Posted October 16, 2011 Report Share Posted October 16, 2011 Well, obviously from my angle I'm going to say revert to a season-long WC system which involves qualifiers at GB tracks... But as that's unlikely - it would help if the GB GP could at some point be a decisive one (ie near or at the end of the series...) - at least next year it will be a fair bit later than previouis Cardiff ones. Is that all they need to do to connect more with British speedway? Just move Cardiff to the end of the season? How will this help? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parsloes 1928 nearly Posted October 16, 2011 Report Share Posted October 16, 2011 Is that all they need to do to connect more with British speedway? Just move Cardiff to the end of the season? How will this help? Of course not just that. But surely you can see that for decades we had the World Final (ie the World Champion decided) here at Wembley; then moved to share on alternate basis with Sweden, then Poland and yes gradually GB Finals were less frequent; but now since the early GPs at Hackney, the GB GP is always so early season it's all but meaningless in the World Championshup race. It would give the sport here a lift to think that at least there's an opportunity to see the World Champ clinch the title here again after an enormously long time (by my reckoning it was Nielsen at London Stadium in '95 the last time this happened..) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lucifer sam Posted October 16, 2011 Report Share Posted October 16, 2011 IS there a better or more skilful rider around than the new World Champion? Phil, I agree - Greg is THE man of 2011 and a very deserving world champ. Parsloes, does it really matter if the World Champ is 19, 29, 39 or 41, as long as it is won by a worthy recipient? All the best Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ImpartialOne Posted October 16, 2011 Report Share Posted October 16, 2011 Of course not just that. So tell me what else needs to be done to benefit British speedway from a greater connection generally between the World Championship and the sport in this country. You must have had some ideas when you wrote that? To be honest, the "moving Cardiff" answer seemed like a makeshift afterthought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hatcham Posted October 16, 2011 Report Share Posted October 16, 2011 Parsloes, does it really matter if the World Champ is 19, 29, 39 or 41, I would have thought it was greatly to the benefit of the sport, that you could make an impact at a wide range of age.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parsloes 1928 nearly Posted October 16, 2011 Report Share Posted October 16, 2011 I would have thought it was greatly to the benefit of the sport, that you could make an impact at a wide range of age.. Er, but that's NOT happening!! The GPs are clearly being totally dominated by the elder end of that age range!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lucifer sam Posted October 16, 2011 Report Share Posted October 16, 2011 Er, but that's NOT happening!! The GPs are clearly being totally dominated by the elder end of that age range!! Nonsense. The World No. 2 & 3 from this year are both in the middle of that age range, while the World No. 6 is still a youngster. And Grand Prix rounds have been won this year by riders of various age ranges. I really can't see the point that you're trying to make. All the best Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ImpartialOne Posted October 16, 2011 Report Share Posted October 16, 2011 I really can't see the point that you're trying to make. All the best Rob I don't think even he knows. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parsloes 1928 nearly Posted October 16, 2011 Report Share Posted October 16, 2011 Nonsense. The World No. 2 & 3 from this year are both in the middle of that age range, while the World No. 6 is still a youngster. And Grand Prix rounds have been won this year by riders of various age ranges. I really can't see the point that you're trying to make. All the best Rob It's clear enuff... The majority of you on here want to diss young riders like Darcy Ward saying they're not good enuff; should have to wait years before getting a chance; that this is fine for the future of the sport etc. All I'm saying is that this situation with very old riders winning the World Championship every year is unprecedented in the history of the sport; I'm concerned that ultimately this won't be to the benefit of the sport; and would prefer to see less obstacles put in the way of younger riders. Okay..?! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WIE-JA Posted October 16, 2011 Report Share Posted October 16, 2011 It's clear enuff... The majority of you on here want to diss young riders like Darcy Ward saying they're not good enuff; should have to wait years before getting a chance; that this is fine for the future of the sport etc. All I'm saying is that this situation with very old riders winning the World Championship every year is unprecedented in the history of the sport; I'm concerned that ultimately this won't be to the benefit of the sport; and would prefer to see less obstacles put in the way of younger riders. Okay..?! What obstacles? Are there obstacles in World Superbikes as well because a 39 year old won that championship? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iris123 Posted October 16, 2011 Report Share Posted October 16, 2011 It's clear enuff... The majority of you on here want to diss young riders like Darcy Ward saying they're not good enuff; should have to wait years before getting a chance; that this is fine for the future of the sport etc. All I'm saying is that this situation with very old riders winning the World Championship every year is unprecedented in the history of the sport; I'm concerned that ultimately this won't be to the benefit of the sport; and would prefer to see less obstacles put in the way of younger riders. Okay..?! Sometimes you do seem to go too far in making your point.You had to apologise before with your comment on Hancock.I do feel you have gone way ott here.What majority?I for one certainly don't diss young riders.I love going to 80cc meetings to see the youngsters.I went to the European and danish championships this year and saw some great racing and some very good prospects. I don't see many if any posts of the manner you are suggesting And i don#t see obstacles either.Hampel was originally given a wild card,Emil as well.Did Holder qualify(i really can't remember either way)? And Ward has also been fast tracked into the series if he decides to accept.What i will say is maybe an obstacle for the youngsters that wasn't there before,is the riding in so many leagues.The youngsters have so many meetings to do now and so much pressure on them to do well in various leagues around Europe and then various other U21 comps that they will certainly at that stage in their career find it hard to stay so competitive throughout the year.Once they get into a team in Sweden or Poland(talking about youngsters from outwith those countries..)they are under imense pressure to keep their place.At that stage in their careers i guess it is only understandable that they have to prioritise.And really because of the money i guess league meetings might take preference over trying to get into and challenge for the GP title. I am all for Darcy getting a place in the GPs.And hope he takes them by storm next year also.If he manages to finish in the top 8,i don't think it would be so bad if Hampel,Emil and Holder also finish up there.That is quite a young group of riders Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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