chunky Posted November 10, 2011 Report Share Posted November 10, 2011 cant win them all i suppose. Depends how much natural talent you've got... Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The White Knight Posted November 10, 2011 Report Share Posted November 10, 2011 Depends how much natural talent you've got... Steve OUCH!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fatface Posted November 10, 2011 Report Share Posted November 10, 2011 Myself and Falcace will have to admit defeat but its been fun all the same. Erm, think you're just speaking for yourself there Sidney. An enjoyable debate indeed, but not one I am admitting any defeat on whatsoever. Where I suspect I will have to admit defeat is to Impartial One and Chunky's propensity for always having to have the last word. In that area, they are formidable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chunky Posted November 10, 2011 Report Share Posted November 10, 2011 Where I suspect I will have to admit defeat is to Impartial One and Chunky's propensity for always having to have the last word. In that area, they are formidable. I don't have to have the last word... Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ImpartialOne Posted November 11, 2011 Report Share Posted November 11, 2011 I don't have to have the last word... Steve That's true. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chunky Posted November 11, 2011 Report Share Posted November 11, 2011 That's true. Thank you. Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stratton Posted November 12, 2011 Author Report Share Posted November 12, 2011 I don't have to have the last word... Steve Falcace are you saying Chunky and The Impartial One act as a team? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ImpartialOne Posted November 12, 2011 Report Share Posted November 12, 2011 Falcace are you saying Chunky and The Impartial One act as a team? That'll be chunky you're talking to then. We did win the Forum Pairs together last year but couldn't compete with Shovlar and Starman this year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveG Posted May 7, 2012 Report Share Posted May 7, 2012 (edited) My involvement with Speedway is really from 1974 to 1984 although 73-88 could be claimed and even then I would say that 76-81 were the maga years for me travelling each and every weekend. Ok well as far as British Riders go I posted my top 20 a short while ago and seem to remember that Dave Jessup was perhaps the unlucky man with an EF whilst leading in a World Final which would probably have made him winner. Gordon Kennett is often talked of a World Champion but I was there that night he came second and sort of remember him never being considered during the evening yet being on the Podium at the end smooth stylish great team rider though but did not set that World Final alight. PC well very talented and fearless, Simmons smooth but Kennett like and so many others that was the 1970's really there was a depth of British talent that decade nearly every track had 1 some 2. Now Lee and Carter were the men that should have led the next decade with Lee being the bigger talent than Carter but both were reckless with their careers, lives, skills everything. Simmons, Jessup, Betts, Wyer, McMillan not all World Class and many others but treasured their careers (Simmons later revelations have hurt a bit) was Carter in a hurry maybe was he unlucky well who knows but no more unlucky than the earlier Brits. 1960's dominated by Oceanics 1970's Mauger and Scandinavians 1980's Americans and Danes And to end with a bit of fun PC couldnt beat Roger Johns round Plough Lane so everyone could have their day! Edited May 7, 2012 by DaveG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parsloes 1928 nearly Posted May 7, 2012 Report Share Posted May 7, 2012 Excellent posting from DaveG - a very perceptive account of that era. I loved Gordon Kennett and he was superb around White City (which I also loved) but he was never in truth World Champ material - even though, of course, he did fantastically make second in '78. Dave Jessup was to me actually a lesser star than Gordon (but that was probably just me!) - but the facts speak for themselves and he was desperately unlucky never to be world champ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chunky Posted May 8, 2012 Report Share Posted May 8, 2012 (edited) Excellent posting from DaveG - a very perceptive account of that era. I loved Gordon Kennett and he was superb around White City (which I also loved) but he was never in truth World Champ material - even though, of course, he did fantastically make second in '78. Dave Jessup was to me actually a lesser star than Gordon (but that was probably just me!) - but the facts speak for themselves and he was desperately unlucky never to be world champ... This is where it can get interesting! Overall, I would say that DJ was a better rider, as illustrated by six World Final appearances, with five Top 8 finishes. In 1980, it could certainly be said that he was the best rider in the World. However - and this may sound strange, I don't know - but as far as overall ability and trackcraft, I wouldn't put him in the same class as Kennett. Jessup relied more on gating and speed than most riders I've seen, and I honestly don't recall seeing him make the clever moves as displayed by Collins, Lee, Kennett, Simmons, Loram, Morton etc. Honestly, I have seen incredible trackcraft by Roger Johns, Barry Thomas, and many other "lesser" riders, riders who weren't actually in the same class as DJ. With regard to legitimate World Championship material, I would certainly put Les Collins up there with Gordon Kennett as unlikely. One World Final and one runner-up finish (I'm not old enough to comment on Wally Green!), although Kennett was much more of a superstar in league speedway. Steve Edited May 8, 2012 by chunky Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveG Posted May 8, 2012 Report Share Posted May 8, 2012 (edited) Thank you all I am really enjoying these posts and have very similar sentiments to Chunky with regards trackcraft and it is clear I hope from my postings that I loved team matches more than the individual championships. That said I probably for all the reasons mentioned believe that Jessup is probably the unlucky man as individual meetings go. It must be noted though that and I will not bore by placing my top 20 Brits on this forum remember that for a few years in particularly the period say 73-78 that many Englishman could have climbed the rostrum in 1st place with conditions, luck etc going their way. It would be wrong of course to deride individual riders too much as the qualifications for finals was erratic to say the least. 5.John Louis 6. Martin Ashby 7.Terry Betts 8. Doug Wyer 9.Gordon Kennett 10.Jim McMillan 11. George Hunter 12. Ray Wilson 13. Bob Kilby 14. Chris Morton This was my 5 to 14 listing on British top 20 please remember that my postings were considering all aspects of their contributions to the sport. Number of World Final appearances between them not many really. Hindsight is great think Kennett is now low as Ray Wilson but had to fit them all in somewhere. And their lies the problem with World Finals I saw either live ( A few ) or video none of the above cracked it and neither did Malcolm Simmons , Dave Jessup who were in my top 4. Would you have wanted any of the above in your home team Hell Yeh . Qualification for the Final was the problem and maybe more difficult. Anyone of the above riders could have won or climbed the podium in a British Final if firing right on the night. Consider the World Final though Jiri Stancl, Jerzy Rembas, Marek Ciselak, Illa Teroma and may other less well known Poles, Russians and Scandinavians did get there. Jancarz was the consistently best of the East Europeans but could never replicate his 1968 3rd. And were would Jancarz have fitted in the above list if British (Lets speculate a 10 year career in Britain probably around 7th). OK I know it could have gone either way with him on his night he could have been Top 3 at other times about 15th Now back the Carter thread he was not competing with any of the above really most were nearer the end of their careers as his took off Lee did though so still place him higher. Do not though think Carter had as much trackcraft as probably any of the above Brits and that might have been what he really needed to learn. At their peaks and I am only going to mention a few Louis through tenacity, Simmons through making himself wide and Jessup gating would have kept Penhall at Bay. Now and I setting myself up for a hit here I know as it is outside my time period. The Grand Prix system I guess ( I will learn) is more of a War of attrition rewarding lets say consistent performances. So lets put it back into the 1970's and 1980's. So thats Simmons, Kennett, Olsen, Michanek, Mauger, Collins,Crump?, Louis? as possible World Champions through the 70's . Ehmm and 4 of them did it so we are still trying to fit so many into 10 slots LOL. Edited May 8, 2012 by DaveG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scarletrider Posted May 8, 2012 Report Share Posted May 8, 2012 Always difficult when you try to compare riders from different decades. In the 70's we were spoiled for choice. But for me the greatest "racer" - was Peter Collins. I use the word racer as opposed to that of speedway rider. Peter wasn't always the quickest out of the gate, like the gate and go riders, but who provided the most excitement? - riders like Collins and Chris Morton, they were masters at coming from the back - four laps of pure excitement as opposed to the "gate and go" greats. I know who I would prefer to watch. Belle Vue were indeed truly blessed in the days of Collins and Morton. "The Mackem" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stratton Posted May 8, 2012 Author Report Share Posted May 8, 2012 Excellent posting from DaveG - a very perceptive account of that era. I loved Gordon Kennett and he was superb around White City (which I also loved) but he was never in truth World Champ material - even though, of course, he did fantastically make second in '78. Dave Jessup was to me actually a lesser star than Gordon (but that was probably just me!) - but the facts speak for themselves and he was desperately unlucky never to be world champ... i was never a fan of DJ also Kennett i thought was just a whiteline rider but i was wrong.But make no mistake Gordon was a top class rider and he had a great career.Who was the better out of DJ and Kennett at all the northern venues and Exeter? Gordon for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fatface Posted May 8, 2012 Report Share Posted May 8, 2012 Thank you all I am really enjoying these posts and have very similar sentiments to Chunky with regards trackcraft and it is clear I hope from my postings that I loved team matches more than the individual championships. That said I probably for all the reasons mentioned believe that Jessup is probably the unlucky man as individual meetings go. It must be noted though that and I will not bore by placing my top 20 Brits on this forum remember that for a few years in particularly the period say 73-78 that many Englishman could have climbed the rostrum in 1st place with conditions, luck etc going their way. It would be wrong of course to deride individual riders too much as the qualifications for finals was erratic to say the least. 5.John Louis 6. Martin Ashby 7.Terry Betts 8. Doug Wyer 9.Gordon Kennett 10.Jim McMillan 11. George Hunter 12. Ray Wilson 13. Bob Kilby 14. Chris Morton This was my 5 to 14 listing on British top 20 please remember that my postings were considering all aspects of their contributions to the sport. Number of World Final appearances between them not many really. Hindsight is great think Kennett is now low as Ray Wilson but had to fit them all in somewhere. And their lies the problem with World Finals I saw either live ( A few ) or video none of the above cracked it and neither did Malcolm Simmons , Dave Jessup who were in my top 4. Would you have wanted any of the above in your home team Hell Yeh . Qualification for the Final was the problem and maybe more difficult. Anyone of the above riders could have won or climbed the podium in a British Final if firing right on the night. I have to speak up for my fave Chris Morton. He won everything there was to win except the World Final and he reached that on seven occasions. He gathered over 100 England caps and captained both his club and country. I am biased, but I'm sure 99/100 would rank him well above some of the names you have mentioned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chunky Posted May 8, 2012 Report Share Posted May 8, 2012 I have to speak up for my fave Chris Morton. He won everything there was to win except the World Final and he reached that on seven occasions. He gathered over 100 England caps and captained both his club and country. I am biased, but I'm sure 99/100 would rank him well above some of the names you have mentioned. I agree 100%; I would certainly put Mort higher than all of those listed from 5-13. I'd also put Willy above Wyer, McMillan, Hunter, and Kilby. Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parsloes 1928 nearly Posted May 8, 2012 Report Share Posted May 8, 2012 IMHO the greatest rider in the '70s era never to be World Champ was John 'Tiger' Louis... Not sure he has really had the place due to him in the history of our sport... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kryten Posted May 8, 2012 Report Share Posted May 8, 2012 I'm reading Alan Carters book at the moment. Cannot find a thread for it on here though. There must be one can someone point me in the right direction please? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chunky Posted May 8, 2012 Report Share Posted May 8, 2012 IMHO the greatest rider in the '70s era never to be World Champ was John 'Tiger' Louis... Not sure he has really had the place due to him in the history of our sport... I agree that he is often overlooked, yet for a late starter in the sport, his achievements should put him up there with the very best. Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveG Posted May 9, 2012 Report Share Posted May 9, 2012 Nice to see all the chat after nearly 30 years away much appreciated done from fading but now improving memory. Morton was a emerging star of the 70's his world finals appearances ( And might be wrong here from memory) were primarily in the 1980's. Hence why he was down my 70's listing. That said Belle Vue made great use of the numbering system namely that it was actually better not to have your best rider at Number 1. Away from home you could then target the home number 1 more times. Thanks for all chat 10 places from 1970 to 1979 Mauger 4 Olsen 3, Collins 1, Michanek 1 and the once a decade unexpected win from 1973 Jerzy Szczakiel theres not much room to fit any one else in Mauger and Olsen were certainly on the podium a few times as well. Chris Morton 1980's performances I think I stopped following really around 1983 would bear some comparison with Michaneks 1970's aside from the fact the latter got a win. Nice to chat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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