Carter Where Does He Rate With The Great British Riders?

[stratton]

I was there and it was jaw dropping. Those on the forum with better memories than me will be able to confirm or deny this but I seem to recall that Lee was using his "Gold Top" engine.. he absolutely destroyed KC at Shay. Needless to say I was not a happy boy.

Lucky bloke, wish id been there Carter was terrific at the shay.Over the years i dont think Mike rode the shay much, so to do that took some doing.Ithink the times were mega fast. Make no mistake if you saw Kenny alot you were lucky i would of paid regular money to see him ride more i went once a year to the shay loved it had a lovely clubhouse nice pint as well. Track awesome to watch Carter thou he was exciting and boy he was mega talented make no mistake.

[kaiser]

Having just started watching speedway at the begining of the 80s, i was fortunate to see a fare amount of Carter be it at Hyde road or the Shay. KC was world class make no mistake of that. I remember him winning back to back BLRCs (when the line up was tougher than most world finals).He was Englands main man in the 80s, and the only brit capable of beating the top danes and yanks on a consistant basis. People allow there personal opinion of Carter, to cloud there judgement of him as a rider, both have to be seperated. As a person he was a murderer and a killer who orphaned his children, but as a speedway rider he really was top line(just watch the 84 British final!!!).

[stratton]

Having just started watching speedway at the begining of the 80s, i was fortunate to see a fare amount of Carter be it at Hyde road or the Shay. KC was world class make no mistake of that. I remember him winning back to back BLRCs (when the line up was tougher than most world finals).He was Englands main man in the 80s, and the only brit capable of beating the top danes and yanks on a consistant basis. People allow there personal opinion of Carter, to cloud there judgement of him as a rider, both have to be seperated. As a person he was a murderer and a killer who orphaned his children, but as a speedway rider he really was top line(just watch the 84 British final!!!).

Who at there best in the 80s was the better rider Lee or Carter?i liked both riders both terrific riders .No doubt in my mind a totally Switched on Lee wins all day.Ask Penhall,Gundersen,Nielsen who they feared the most i think they would say Mike as Lee had a terrific head to head record against all those 3 great riders.

[25yearfan]

Class rider who never fulfilled his undoubted talent which would put him behind many other great British riders!

Edited October 9, 2011 by 25yearfan

[iris123]

Having just started watching speedway at the begining of the 80s, i was fortunate to see a fare amount of Carter be it at Hyde road or the Shay. KC was world class make no mistake of that. I remember him winning back to back BLRCs (when the line up was tougher than most world finals).He was Englands main man in the 80s, and the only brit capable of beating the top danes and yanks on a consistant basis. People allow there personal opinion of Carter, to cloud there judgement of him as a rider, both have to be seperated. As a person he was a murderer and a killer who orphaned his children, but as a speedway rider he really was top line(just watch the 84 British final!!!).

Not sure that is totally true about the only rider to be able to beat the Danes etc....I was at the 85 test at Oxford and Carter was poor.Was there a valid reason that i have forgotten?But looking at the England scores and Carter only topped them two years against Denmark.

[kaiser]

Not sure that is totally true about the only rider to be able to beat the Danes etc....I was at the 85 test at Oxford and Carter was poor.Was there a valid reason that i have forgotten?But looking at the England scores and Carter only topped them two years against Denmark.

 

Every rider has an off day(well apart from the main dane!!!). We sure missed him in the 85 world team cup final(we were shambolic!!!!). Dont get me wrong as Aces fan i never supported KC (i remember when he virtually ended PC career!!!). But as i remember and i was only a kid at the time, he seemed the only Brit capable of giving them a run for there money,on a weekly basis. If races would have lasted 5 laps mighty mort would have beaten them all

[fatface]

Kenny, not being renowned from the back,

As well as the re-writing of history above, this really can't be left unchallenged either.

 

Out-trapping Penhall and then showing Kelly Moran no mercy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQu_QI745w0

 

Passing the Collins brothers with a broken leg:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MLjAbLt7u88

 

Cutting up Tiger Louis:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A1Wty8wUhkw

 

More British Final overtaking:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKCO49a1oNs

 

overtaking again in a World Team Cup final:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fdMcOAtGNmM

 

passing Bobby Schwartz on his home track:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y7iUX2EPTKg

 

third to first on England duty:

 

I was a huge Belle Vue fan at the time and booed Kenny Carter as much as the next guy. What is undeniable though, is that he was a tremendous speedway rider. By all means have a negative opinion of the guy, but don't simply make things up.

Edited October 13, 2011 by falcace

[stratton]

As well as the re-writing of history above, this really can't be left unchallenged either.

 

Out-trapping Penhall and then showing Kelly Moran no mercy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQu_QI745w0

 

Passing the Collins brothers with a broken leg:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MLjAbLt7u88

 

Cutting up Tiger Louis:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A1Wty8wUhkw

 

More British Final overtaking:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKCO49a1oNs

 

overtaking again in a World Team Cup final:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fdMcOAtGNmM

 

passing Bobby Schwartz on his home track:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y7iUX2EPTKg

 

third to first on England duty:

 

I was a huge Belle Vue fan at the time and booed Kenny Carter as much as the next guy. What is undeniable though, is that he was a tremendous speedway rider. By all means have a negative opinion of the guy, but don't simply make things up.

Carter was terrific from the back,funny thing is i thought he was a decent gater as well.That German track Olching what a track that was up there with the great Hyde Rd Belle Vue.

[lucifer sam]

1981: 3,2,3,E,3 = 11 (5th)

1982: 3,3,3,X,1 = 10 (5th)

1983: 2,3,3,1,1 = 10 (5th)

 

So, 25 points out of 27 before the interval, and 6 out of 18 after the interval. That tells a story. Kenny Carter was never going to be World Champion.

 

All the best

Rob

[stratton]

So, 25 points out of 27 before the interval, and 6 out of 18 after the interval. That tells a story. Kenny Carter was never going to be World Champion.

 

All the best

Rob

I dont no if he would of won it but he would of had a great chance.Would Nielsen and Gundersen won 7 titles between them if Carter,Sigalos,Lee,Sanders had stayed around because of various reasons certainly not.Saying that both those Danes were brilliant ,But those four world class riders not around did open up the door for the danes.Make no mistake, Carter could of beaten the Danes on any given day.

[fatface]

So, 25 points out of 27 before the interval, and 6 out of 18 after the interval. That tells a story. Kenny Carter was never going to be World Champion.

 

All the best

Rob

I agree that it probably wasn't going to happen for him. But there's no doubt in my mind he was good enough to win it in the early 80s. Most reasoned observers would consider him very unlucky not get on the rostrum in 81 and very unlucky with injuries in 84 and 85 when most would consider him well capable of a serious title tilt. As for 82, well, some think he was ripped off, some say he deserved what he got. But there's little doubt who Bruce Penhall thought was his main opponent that year.

 

Anyone else getting a feeling of deja vu in this thread?

[lucifer sam]

I dont no if he would of won it but he would of had a great chance.Would Nielsen and Gundersen won 7 titles between them if Carter,Sigalos,Lee,Sanders had stayed around because of various reasons certainly not.Saying that both those Danes were brilliant ,But those four world class riders not around did open up the door for the danes.Make no mistake, Carter could of beaten the Danes on any given day.

 

Nope, if he was going to be World Champion, it should have happened in 1982 or 1983. It didn't. Carter peaked early, and by 1986, his career was on the downward spiral. The Danes had well and truly eclipsed him.

 

EDIT: Falcace, yes we've been here before.

 

All the best

Rob

Edited October 13, 2011 by lucifer sam

[Grachan]

Personally I'd rate Kenny Carter as one of the best British riders of my time watching speedway. Not as good as Lee or Collins maybe, but I've always thought of him as better than Havelock and Loram even if he didn't ever make it to the top of the world.

 

Carter should, maybe, have won in 1982. That was the year he could and should have won it really, and I finally saw good quality video of the incident with Penhall a couple of years ago that confirmed that he was taken off by Juicy Brucey. If Penhall had been excluded, I think the title of World Champ would certainly have fitted with Carter better than Les Collins and I think he would have won had he been in the re-run of that race.

 

Remember going to see Halifax v Swindon in the early 80's and Phil Crump beating him twice in the match and again in the second half final. And it made for a fabulous night because of that. There aren't many British riders that have had such an effect as that. I mean to say, Phil Crump was a great rider yet we were, like, "wow! He did Kenny Carter at the Shay"

 

I agree that I don't think he would have had an impact on the Neilsen/Gundersen era though. Would have had to do it before then.

[stratton]

Personally I'd rate Kenny Carter as one of the best British riders of my time watching speedway. Not as good as Lee or Collins maybe, but I've always thought of him as better than Havelock and Loram even if he didn't ever make it to the top of the world.

 

Carter should, maybe, have won in 1982. That was the year he could and should have won it really, and I finally saw good quality video of the incident with Penhall a couple of years ago that confirmed that he was taken off by Juicy Brucey. If Penhall had been excluded, I think the title of World Champ would certainly have fitted with Carter better than Les Collins and I think he would have won had he been in the re-run of that race.

 

Remember going to see Halifax v Swindon in the early 80's and Phil Crump beating him twice in the match and again in the second half final. And it made for a fabulous night because of that. There aren't many British riders that have had such an effect as that. I mean to say, Phil Crump was a great rider yet we were, like, "wow! He did Kenny Carter at the Shay"

 

I agree that I don't think he would have had an impact on the Neilsen/Gundersen era though. Would have had to do it before then.

I was there when Phil Crump beat Carter 3 times a great day out i think if my memory serves me right Holloway gated Carter in heat 1 and he had to come from the back there as well.If Carters life had stayed on track would he had been a threat to Gundersen/Nielsen i think so but who noes?.Just watched the 1984 British Final and he was riding at a very high level there hyphophetical i suppose.

[fatface]

Personally I'd rate Kenny Carter as one of the best British riders of my time watching speedway. Not as good as Lee or Collins maybe, but I've always thought of him as better than Havelock and Loram even if he didn't ever make it to the top of the world

I'd agree with that. I'm sure you're the same as me though and wouldn't begrudge either Havelock or Loram their successes. They both took their one chance when it came. Eminem would've been impressed with that :-) Sport can be like that sometimes. I've had a fairly close involvement with athletics for many years and I think of Kelly Holmes' Double Olympic gold in 2004 in the same vein. She found her peak form and fitness at a time when some others were injured or down on fitness, some were past their peak and others were not quite at theirs. All the stars aligned for her for one short time and luckily enough it was during the Olympics. Fair play to her she took her chance with both hands, just like Havvy and Loramski did. :-)

[ImpartialOne]

Loram was far more naturally talented than Carter though. Carter, as good as he was, very much relied on his fighting spirit and determination and got awfully out of shape at times whilst doing so. Don't get me wrong, he was a great rider but he wasn't in harmony with the bike like Loram and Screen, who I still regard as two of the most naturally gifted riders of my time.

[HenryW]

Personally, I thought Carter always looked completely out of place on a speedway bike.

 

He somehow made it work, possibly just through his determination, but the likes of Loram and Havelock were far, far better on a speedway bike than Carter could ever have been if you ask me...

[ImpartialOne]

Personally, I thought Carter always looked completely out of place on a speedway bike.

 

He somehow made it work, possibly just through his determination, but the likes of Loram and Havelock were far, far better on a speedway bike than Carter could ever have been if you ask me...

Absolutely. I struggle to see the comparisons that people have made between him and Garrity, apart from the attitude. Whatever Garrity achieves he already looks better on a bike than Carter ever did,

[nw42]

Loram was far more naturally talented than Carter though. Carter, as good as he was, very much relied on his fighting spirit and determination and got awfully out of shape at times whilst doing so. Don't get me wrong, he was a great rider but he wasn't in harmony with the bike like Loram and Screen, who I still regard as two of the most naturally gifted riders of my time.

 

I'd agree with you about Carter, great equipment and a burning desire to win made him a regular contender, I'm sure he would have got a World crown if he'd continued but he wasn't what I'd call a natural speedway rider.

 

As for Mark Loram, I could have watched him all day long, a true racer in the mould of Peter Collins, just get on the bike and race, no airs & graces.

 

In my time watching I would place Carter behind both Collins & Loram, also Michael Lee pips Carter for me.

[The White Knight]

I'd agree with you about Carter, great equipment and a burning desire to win made him a regular contender, I'm sure he would have got a World crown if he'd continued but he wasn't what I'd call a natural speedway rider.

 

As for Mark Loram, I could have watched him all day long, a true racer in the mould of Peter Collins, just get on the bike and race, no airs & graces.

 

In my time watching I would place Carter behind both Collins & Loram, also Michael Lee pips Carter for me.

 

I reckon both Malcolm Simmons, Dave Jessup and Les Collins were ahead of him too.