Carter Where Does He Rate With The Great British Riders?

[stratton]

as a visitor to Hyde Road i would rate Carter as the best English rider i saw there consistently...so fast and ruthless and his races with Collins and Morton were anticipated for ages..although i would say Collins was slightly past his best when Carter was at his peak..i would have liked to see them clash at Hyde Road with Collins at his very peak.

Overall away from Halifax and Hyde Road at World international level he would have to rank a bit lower down because he never made a World Final rostrum due to various problems and injuries, so he would be behind Peter Collins, Lee, Simmons, Jessup and achievements wise behind Havelock and Loram although potentially he could have been third behind Collins and Lee from all the English riders i have seen

 

and the best 16 year old Brits i have seen were Lee and Joe Screen...i thought Screen was immense at that age and didn't achieve what he might have done

Michael Lee aged 16 no 1 at BOSTON in the old national league some doing never happen now averaged over 9 reached N.L.R.C FINAL.The national league then was tough with the two Owens, Jackson, Etheridge ect all good riders.Lee and Carter no comparison LEE won honours Carter didnt not when it mattered anyway Lee was a great rider and was always great with supporters.

[liverpool chad]

i would have liked to see them clash at Hyde Road with Collins at his very peak.

 

 

I don't think Carter would of had any idea where Collins was going to come from, when Collins was at his peak (1977 season) The likes of Olsen, Mauger, Louis, Jessup and Ashby would regularly lead Collins for a lap or so with Collins riding inside then outside leading to them looking over there shoulders to see where he was, If they looked left Collins was going round the boards, if they looked right Collins was cutting back inside and he was gone. And i don't think Kenny Carter was any better around Hyde Road than any of the above mentioned riders, although he was good around there, as he was at most tracks.

 

Kenny Carter, IMO never for-filled his potential. Be that due to his mental state, his injurys, his lack of respect to his fellow riders or a potent mix of all three, he never stepped up to the next level at the big world championship events. I would put him up there with the likes of Nigel and Eric Boocock, Martin Ashby, Gordon Kennett and Les Collins. But not in the same class as Peter Collins, Dave Jessup, Michael Lee and Mark Loram. And nowhere near the greatest ever Englishman, Liverpools very own Peter Craven

 

With regard to another one of Liverpools sporting sons, Chris Pusey. Chris was a very good rider who was looking like he too could go all the way to the top. But he had a bad injury in the mid seventies and was just a pale shadow of his former self after that.

[stratton]

I don't think Carter would of had any idea where Collins was going to come from, when Collins was at his peak (1977 season) The likes of Olsen, Mauger, Louis, Jessup and Ashby would regularly lead Collins for a lap or so with Collins riding inside then outside leading to them looking over there shoulders to see where he was, If they looked left Collins was going round the boards, if they looked right Collins was cutting back inside and he was gone. And i don't think Kenny Carter was any better around Hyde Road than any of the above mentioned riders, although he was good around there, as he was at most tracks.

 

Kenny Carter, IMO never for-filled his potential. Be that due to his mental state, his injurys, his lack of respect to his fellow riders or a potent mix of all three, he never stepped up to the next level at the big world championship events. I would put him up there with the likes of Nigel and Eric Boocock, Martin Ashby, Gordon Kennett and Les Collins. But not in the same class as Peter Collins, Dave Jessup, Michael Lee and Mark Loram. And nowhere near the greatest ever Englishman, Liverpools very own Peter Craven

 

With regard to another one of Liverpools sporting sons, Chris Pusey. Chris was a very good rider who was looking like he too could go all the way to the top. But he had a bad injury in the mid seventies and was just a pale shadow of his former self after that.

Collins at hyde rd was awesome if Collins at his peak had met a peak Carter i think out of 20 races hazard a guess 14 wins for Collins 6 for Carter even then i think Carter would of done well to win 6 races.Collins was so confident in his ability to come from the back i think at his peak Olsen and Mauger were the only ones who could beat him regularly at hyde rd.

[ImpartialOne]

Kenny Carter, IMO never for-filled his potential. Be that due to his mental state, his injurys, his lack of respect to his fellow riders or a potent mix of all three, he never stepped up to the next level at the big world championship events. I would put him up there with the likes of Nigel and Eric Boocock, Martin Ashby, Gordon Kennett and Les Collins. But not in the same class as Peter Collins, Dave Jessup, Michael Lee and Mark Loram. And nowhere near the greatest ever Englishman, very own Peter Craven

I think it's obvious why Carter never fulfilled his potential.

As he said himself, "I broke down in 1981, I got knocked off in 1982, 1983 was a bad year..."

 

And of course, he broke his leg in 1984 and 1985 and we all know about 1986.

 

I don't think he can be accused of not stepping up to it in World Championships:

 

1981: 3,2,3,E,3 = 11 (5th)

1982: 3,3,3,X,1 = 10 (5th)

1983: 2,3,3,1,1 = 10 (5th)

1984: injured

1985: injured

 

I just think he was desperately unlucky.

Edited September 30, 2011 by ImpartialOne

[stratton]

I think it's obvious why Carter never fulfilled his potential.

As he said himself, "I broke down in 1981, I got knocked off in 1982, 1983 was a bad year..."

 

And of course, he broke his leg in 1984 and 1985 and we all know about 1986.

 

I don't think he can be accused of not stepping up to it in World Championships:

 

1981: 3,2,3,E,3 = 11 (5th)

1982: 3,3,3,X,1 = 10 (5th)

1983: 2,3,3,1,1 = 10 (5th)

1984: injured

1985: injured

 

I just think he was desperately unlucky.

I loved watching him ride was a terrific rider.But i never felt in any of those years he was good anough to win it.Even when Michael Lee was on his game Carter for me was never Englands no1.Didnt see it wish i had remember Mike destroying Carter for the Golden Helmet at Halifax beat him 4.0 over both legs.

[ImpartialOne]

I loved watching him ride was a terrific rider.But i never felt in any of those years he was good anough to win it.Even when Michael Lee was on his game Carter for me was never Englands no1.Didnt see it wish i had remember Mike destroying Carter for the Golden Helmet at Halifax beat him 4.0 over both legs.

He was unbeaten going into heat 14 in 1982. There's no question that what happened in that heat completely destroyed his morale but up until that point he was very dominant and looked very capable of winning it.

 

In 1981 I seem to recall both he and Gundersen were leading when they broke down. If that is the case, there would have been a three man run off for the title between Penhall, Carter and Gundersen. Even in 83 he was in contention at the interval so hardly someone who never looked like winning it.

[RonButler]

At 17yrs old Ronnie Moore was a World Finalist and World Champion at 21, youngest ever for both but what does that prove?

 

I would say that without a doubt Peter Craven is the greatest ever British rider. I not only say that from seeing him race but the fact that you could have put Peter on a modern lay-down and his style would have suited it perfectly, you could have put him on any speedway bike made in the last sixty years and he would have been as good on any of them and I do not think you will find another rider in the world who you could have said that about.

 

As this thread refers to great British riders and as Ronnie Moore was an Australian it proves absolutely nothing.

 

Moore is irrelevant to the stated topic of the thread.

[ImpartialOne]

As this thread refers to great British riders and as Ronnie Moore was an Australian it proves absolutely nothing.

 

Moore is irrelevant to the stated topic of the thread.

His nationality was New Zealand despite being born in Australia.

[Deano]

How about throwing Martin Dugard into the mix? Never made it on the individual world stage like others, but consistently at the top of the British League and Division 1 and Elite League averages when it was still considered one of the toughest leagues in the world.

[Fromafar]

Can't Split Peter Collins or M Lee, closely folloewd By Simmons,Jessup and Carter.

[ImpartialOne]

Can't Split Peter Collins or M Lee, closely folloewd By Simmons,Jessup and Carter.

Jessup had far too many silly breakdowns for a rider of his level.

[liverpool chad]

I think it's obvious why Carter never fulfilled his potential.

As he said himself, "I broke down in 1981, I got knocked off in 1982, 1983 was a bad year..."

 

And of course, he broke his leg in 1984 and 1985 and we all know about 1986.

 

I don't think he can be accused of not stepping up to it in World Championships:

 

1981: 3,2,3,E,3 = 11 (5th)

1982: 3,3,3,X,1 = 10 (5th)

1983: 2,3,3,1,1 = 10 (5th)

1984: injured

1985: injured

 

I just think he was desperately unlucky.

 

 

He was unbeaten going into heat 14 in 1982. There's no question that what happened in that heat completely destroyed his morale but up until that point he was very dominant and looked very capable of winning it.

 

In 1981 I seem to recall both he and Gundersen were leading when they broke down.

 

Kenny Carter never stood on top of a world championship podium in an individual event when the qualifiers from the British Final were joined by the best of the Americans, Scandinavians and Australasians. So YES i think we can accuse him of not stepping up to it in World Championships.

 

 

We are talking about a rider who was lying either first or second in three, yes, three World Finals. But after the heat twelve interval he completly lost his focus. Wembley in 1981, he misses the gate and was lying third when his engine mysteriously died. Los Angeles in 1982 he misses the gate and was lying third when he chose the wrong option and ran out of room in his tussle with Bruce Penhall. Norden in 1983, he misses the gate and was lying third, Kenny, not being renowned from the back, settles for third and with it goes his last chance of becoming World champion.

Now that's got nothing to do with being quote "desperately unlucky" it's more to do with someone who has a mental block and is lacking the trackcraft of a Collins, Olsen or Mauger when plan "A" backfires.

 

Kenny Carter was lying third when he stopped at Wembley in '81.

[ImpartialOne]

I stand corrected on the EF in 1981, as I wasn't certain to be honest.

 

However, in the World Championship rounds you quite rightly say he never won a round after the British Final stage, but everyone knows it was all about qualification. Winning was an added bonus but to infer that he couldn't do it once up against the Americans and Australasians is incorrect because in 1982 he finished 2nd in the Overseas Final to Dave Jessup, ahead of all the Americans and Australasians. In 1983, again he finished 2nd in the Overseas Final to Phil Collins, ahead of all the Americans and Australasians.

In 1984 he was contesting all the rounds with a broken leg and was only interested in trying to get enough points to get through. in 1985 he was in a run-off for 1st place in the Overseas Final on 14 points with Shawn Moran, which he lost but with 14 points he could easily have won most rounds.

 

When I refer to bad luck, remember he was riding in the 1982 World Final only weeks after leaving intensive care with a collapsed lung and wasn't 100% fit. I also believe he was unlucky in heat 14. It could have gone either way and Bruce was lucky to get another chance as he too was in third place during that race. With Penhall gone and PC unlikely to make a second gate, which he didn't, Carter may have been unbeaten going into his last race. We don't know, but again, luck wasn't on his side but it definitely was with BP.

 

1983, no excuses. He flopped. But in 1984 he was dogged with that broken leg which beat him in the end. In 1985, he crashed out of the Intercontinental Final on a soaking wet Vojens with a broken leg again. If that's not bad luck I don't know what is.

 

A fully fit Carter would surely have made the 1984 and 1985 World Finals; the latter being on his home track. There was much more to come from him no doubt but alas we never got to see it.

[Grand Central]

 

Wembley in 1981, he misses the gate and was lying third when his engine mysteriously died.

 

Kenny Carter was lying third when he stopped at Wembley in '81.

 

This is a rather strange representation of the events of Heat 15 at Wembley.

 

Dave Jessup gated first (no surprise there) ahead of Carter and the other two. Carter got into a firm second - ahead of Gundersen and Olsen - as they were going down the back straight.

But by the time they go around bends 3 and 4 Carter's bike is popping and banging so loud as to be audible above the Wembley crowd. He is clearly losing power and ground so first Gundersen goes past as they cross the start line at the end of lap one and then Olsen as they go down the back straight.

 

I don't think any of this matters in terms of the debate raised by the original poster; but you're characterisation of that partcular race and the bizarre inference of his engine 'myseriously' dying certainly cannot be allowed to go unchallenged.

 

I stand corrected on the EF in 1981, as I wasn't certain to be honest.

 

Please don't be!

 

The video is around on You Tube so I encourage everyone to look at it and judge for themselves.

Edited September 30, 2011 by Grand Central

[liverpool chad]

This is a rather strange representation of the events of Heat 15 at Wembley.

 

Dave Jessup gated first (no surprise there) ahead of Carter and the other two. Carter got into a firm second - ahead of Gundersen and Olsen - as they were going down the back straight.

But by the time they go around bends 3 and 4 Carter's bike is popping and banging so loud as to be audible above the Wembley crowd. He is clearly losing power and ground so first Gundersen goes past as they cross the start line at the end of lap one and then Olsen as they go down the back straight.

 

I don't think any of this matters in terms of the debate raised by the original poster; but you're characterisation of that partcular race and the bizarre inference of his engine 'myseriously' dying certainly cannot be allowed to go unchallenged.

 

I don't think it's a strange representation of the events of heat 15 at all.

I have not seen any video footage of the race and can only go off what my memory tells me. And this is that Kenny Carter, who was quite a handy gater, misses the gate and is trailing Dave Jessup. I think that if you remember correctly, thats what happens. Erik Gundersen, who was on fast equipment on that evening was lying in third. Erik Gundersen then passes Kenny Carter who is visibly losing power and eventually grinds to a stop. I think that if you remember correctly, thats what happens. My interpretation of the events is that Erik Gundersen who was flying on the said evening was passing Carter irrespective of any engine trouble. But even if Carter had finished second in heat 15 and then gone on to win his last race, which he duly did, that would of put him on 13pts, and 13pts means no world title.

 

My inference of his engine "mysteriously" dying is that based on the evidence it was mysterious. I don't think up to that point i had ever seen Kenny Carter have a spluttering engine. Couple that with the fact that Kenny had Ivan Mauger in is corner, and Mauger was renowned for having strong engines and for not taking anything to chance, particularly in a big meeting, then i can only conclude that it was mysterious. Mysterious in that i would not of expected that to happen.

[Grand Central]

I don't think it's a strange representation of the events of heat 15 at all.

I have not seen any video footage of the race and can only go off what my memory tells me. And this is that Kenny Carter, who was quite a handy gater, misses the gate and is trailing Dave Jessup. I think that if you remember correctly, thats what happens. Erik Gundersen, who was on fast equipment on that evening was lying in third. Erik Gundersen then passes Kenny Carter who is visibly losing power and eventually grinds to a stop. I think that if you remember correctly, thats what happens. My interpretation of the events is that Erik Gundersen who was flying on the said evening was passing Carter irrespective of any engine trouble. But even if Carter had finished second in heat 15 and then gone on to win his last race, which he duly did, that would of put him on 13pts, and 13pts means no world title.

 

My inference of his engine "mysteriously" dying is that based on the evidence it was mysterious. I don't think up to that point i had ever seen Kenny Carter have a spluttering engine. Couple that with the fact that Kenny had Ivan Mauger in is corner, and Mauger was renowned for having strong engines and for not taking anything to chance, particularly in a big meeting, then i can only conclude that it was mysterious. Mysterious in that i would not of expected that to happen.

 

I am glad that in this much fuller description of Heat 15 you readily acknowledge that Carter was actually in SECOND place to Jessup when he was first 'visibly losing power' and it was at this point that Gundersen went passed. You're original post had stated that he was third. It is certainly true that Gundersen went like an express train once Carter was out of the race but it is pure conjecture as to whether he would have passed Carter had his bike not been failing.

 

It has to also be remembered that Jessup himself also suffred an engine failure before the end of the race thereby giving both Gundersen and Olsen an extra point that significantly changed the pattern of the overall scorers at the end of the meeting. The well-known Penhall 14, Olsen 12, Knudsen 12 would be looking an awful lot different were it not for the randomness of engine troubles on that night.

 

I have to say that if Kenny Carter had a 'Second to Penhall in 1981 at Wembley' tag rather than the no-where placing that fifth is; then quite a lot of retrospective pro-Carter arguments would carry a ton more weight.

 

And, totally irrelevent to this debate, but Ivan Mauger was certainly renowned for 'strong engines' and not leaving things to chance but as his catastrophic break down when leading in 1976 showed ... even he, the greatest rider ever (my view) was actually fallible in this regard. But not actually mysterious, really, is it?

Edited October 1, 2011 by Grand Central

[ImpartialOne]

I am glad that in this much fuller description of Heat 15 you readily acknowledge that Carter was actually in SECOND place to Jessup when he was first 'visibly losing power' and it was at this point that Gundersen went passed. You're original post had stated that he was third. It is certainly true that Gundersen went like an express train once Carter was out of the race but it is pure conjecture as to whether he would have passed Carter had his bike not been failing.

 

It has to also be remembered that Jessup himself also suffred an engine failure before the end of the race thereby giving both Gundersen and Olsen an extra point that significantly changed the pattern of the overall scorers at the end of the meeting. The well-known Penhall 14, Olsen 12, Knudsen 12 would be looking an awful lot different were it not for the randomness of engine troubles on that night.

 

I have to say that if Kenny Carter had a 'Second to Penhall in 1981 at Wembley' tag rather than the no-where placing that fifth is; then quite a lot of retrospective pro-Carter arguments would carry a ton more weight.

 

And, totally irrelevent to this debate, but Ivan Mauger was certainly renowned for 'strong engines' and not leaving things to chance but as his catastrophic break down when leading in 1976 showed ... even he, the greatest rider ever (my view) was actually fallible in this regard. But not actually mysterious, really, is it?

I was actually amazed that his second account of what happened was totally different to his original and almost mirrored that of what you had told him. Yet he was trying to remind you of what you had already stated!

[Grand Central]

I was actually amazed that his second account of what happened was totally different to his original and almost mirrored that of what you had told him. Yet he was trying to remind you of what you had already stated!

 

Thank you, I was beginning to doubt my own sanity for a moment!

[Fromafar]

Jessup had far too many silly breakdowns for a rider of his level.

Have to agree it was nearly always at Big Meetings,was a class act as a rider though.

[Shay Hey Kid]

I loved watching him ride was a terrific rider.But i never felt in any of those years he was good anough to win it.Even when Michael Lee was on his game Carter for me was never Englands no1.Didnt see it wish i had remember Mike destroying Carter for the Golden Helmet at Halifax beat him 4.0 over both legs.

I was there and it was jaw dropping. Those on the forum with better memories than me will be able to confirm or deny this but I seem to recall that Lee was using his "Gold Top" engine.. he absolutely destroyed KC at Shay. Needless to say I was not a happy boy.