tigerowl Posted August 18, 2011 Report Share Posted August 18, 2011 Can anyone enlighten me and explain what the advantages were in using the rider replacement system in the double header at Sheffield tonight. Match 1 - a powerhouse National League Scrowlers side including home man Ashley Birks, the very impressive Gary Irving and Richie Worrall, the vastly experienced Lee Smethills and two handy reserves in Wrathall and Nielsen but missing the equally talented Steve Worrall against a struggling Isle of Wight side with hardly any Sheffield experience between them apart from Simmons and Chessell who has been doing a few second halves recently. The Scrowlers were obviously going to win by a huge margin but chose to use rider replacement for Steve Worrall. They named a number eight in Jordan Tyrer who was given one ride in a tough heat 10 when everyone else had had a couple of rides at least and clocked up over 60 points. Match 2 - eventually abandoned after heat 3 but both teams using rider replacement - the home side for Worrall again and the visitors for Garrity. Ashley Birks took the replacement ride in heat 1 and there would have been little chance for young Tyrer no doubt. The potential was there for most of the Scunthorpe / Sheffield riders to have chalked up two massive wins with 10, 11 or 12 rides each. But would the likes of Irving, Worrall and Birks have learned much from the experience. Of course they might have built up some confidence and a few extra pounds but I bet the possibility of a blown engine screaming it round Sheffield for up to 48 laps would have negated some of that profit. Are we really so short of riders that both teams have to resort to using rider replacement in a National League match or has the need to win become such that teams are scared to introduce young riders. By my reckoning only six British riders have made their league debuts in official National League racing this year. (Blackbird, Blacklock, Greenwood, Nielsen, Portwood and Saunders). This is nowhere near enough and it really is shameful that young riders are being denied the chance of racing in league action through this odd desire to plug any gaps with rider replacement. Rant over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tigerowl Posted August 18, 2011 Author Report Share Posted August 18, 2011 I would like to add though, that I do recognise Scunthorpe's record in bringing on young riders in recent years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squall Posted August 18, 2011 Report Share Posted August 18, 2011 Apparently Blackbird rode 4 years ago, so that's only 5 Brits made their debut. Aussies, Danes, Poles, Swedes, Russians all got world class youngsters. We have Woffinden. Great, innit? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catalan Posted August 19, 2011 Report Share Posted August 19, 2011 Personally don't like R/R at this level, I actually think if both teams are operating R/R at any level, as they cancel each other out No 8s should be promoted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cityrebel Posted August 19, 2011 Report Share Posted August 19, 2011 years ago at all levels of racing it was common practice for two teams using r/r to cancel the facility and promote the no.8's. these days though it never seems to happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Islander15 Posted August 19, 2011 Report Share Posted August 19, 2011 Very good post Tigerowl . I thought it was harsh on Jordan to use him on heat 10, seeing as the pairing of Warwick/Smith was probably the least likely pair he was going to have a chance against. And I would have thought it would have been fair to promote him in the second meeting seeing as BV ended up having to anyway. Btw you can add Brandon Freemantle to your list of debutants. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
21st century heathen Posted August 19, 2011 Report Share Posted August 19, 2011 Your answer may lie in a glance at last season's final table. Three teams were separated by race points difference. Unfortunately the most exciting end to a season that anyone could remember didn't really get much coverage so it may have slipped under the radar for many. http://www.speedwaygb.co/nltable10.html -------------------------------------------------------------------- There is no requirement to name a number 8 squad member this season. Tyrer would have been the other type of number 8 nominated to offer cover where r/r is in use. I think something should be done to differentiate between the types of number 8. It's unnecessarily confusing to any casual supporter. ------------------------------------------------------------------- Ritchings has made his 'effective' debut this season. He did have an odd run out for the Heathens last season as our squad number 8, but this is his first full season of league racing in a team's 1-7. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Personally I would rather see r/r than any body on a bike. If you're got a rider that's up to speed then the chances are you're either using him or loaning him out to another club to get some racing under his belt. I hate doing this (naming names) but who wants to watch teams using riders like Portwood every time a rider is missing? With the best will in the world the lad is just not ready for league racing, and it would be a similar story for other clubs. What I want from a rider like Adam is for him to take the knock of being dropped on the chin, like Stoneman did, and for him to turn up at Monmore Wood every week watching, learning, listening and getting track time in after-meeting practice sessions at every opportunity. The lad can ride a bike but he's nowhere out of the start and does not yet have the pace to chase anyone down. But with the right attitude and plenty more practice under his belt he might just get his chance some time in the not-too-distant future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vog Posted August 19, 2011 Report Share Posted August 19, 2011 Personally don't like R/R at this level, I actually think if both teams are operating R/R at any level, as they cancel each other out No 8s should be promoted. Does it? Let's say for example on Wednesday, when Stoke faced King's Lynn. We were missing Tim Webster, who is second in the averages. We would have been replacing a virtual 9 point rider with a 3 pointer. If KL had then been using R/R for Scott Campos (A 5 pointer), how would that have made the teams equal? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
montie Posted August 19, 2011 Report Share Posted August 19, 2011 Your answer may lie in a glance at last season's final table. Three teams were separated by race points difference. Unfortunately the most exciting end to a season that anyone could remember didn't really get much coverage so it may have slipped under the radar for many. I think your right,it could go down to the wire,and points difference could be the deciding factor Plus,the saints for example are not on huge points money,so it gives them a chance to pop a few extra quid in the bank, Can see merit in using no.8`s though also Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrystalCastles Posted August 19, 2011 Report Share Posted August 19, 2011 Your answer may lie in a glance at last season's final table. Three teams were separated by race points difference. Unfortunately the most exciting end to a season that anyone could remember didn't really get much coverage so it may have slipped under the radar for many. http://www.speedwaygb.co/nltable10.html I agree, Scunny have a real good chance of winning this season but after last season it's imperative to go with as strong a line up as possible in every meeting. Irving, The Worralls & Birks have been superb this year & this a real chance for them to win something. How many chances do riders get to win a League in there career. Personally I would rather see r/r than any body on a bike. If you're got a rider that's up to speed then the chances are you're either using him or loaning him out to another club to get some racing under his belt. I hate doing this (naming names) but who wants to watch teams using riders like Portwood every time a rider is missing? With the best will in the world the lad is just not ready for league racing, and it would be a similar story for other clubs. What I want from a rider like Adam is for him to take the knock of being dropped on the chin, like Stoneman did, and for him to turn up at Monmore Wood every week watching, learning, listening and getting track time in after-meeting practice sessions at every opportunity. The lad can ride a bike but he's nowhere out of the start and does not yet have the pace to chase anyone down. But with the right attitude and plenty more practice under his belt he might just get his chance some time in the not-too-distant future. Agreed its pointless giving riders a chance unless they are ready for it. They need the opportunity to learn but sticking them in a League where they would be out of there depth doesn't help them. Last year a number of riders thrived in a competitive & entertining league, and a number of those are subsequently this year ensuring that that environment & competitive nature remains, which is important for those riders who have been ready to make there debuts this year. However the number of new riders in the League this year is worrying. It's shows that the real problems with British Speedway occur before the NL. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
montie Posted August 19, 2011 Report Share Posted August 19, 2011 (edited) Agreed its pointless giving riders a chance unless they are ready for it. They need the opportunity to learn but sticking them in a League where they would be out of there depth doesn't help them. Thats true SG but it wasnt long ago when Scunny released a team with rookies like Birks,Worrall etc and folk said they wouldnt turn up to watch scunnys team of wobblers,Its was only a year ago[iSH] that Richie was no.8 for Scunny at Dudley i think,took all the rr rides in that meeting and scored an AUDI,folk again said he wasnt ready and shouldnt be in the NL,12 months on and he is game on Edited August 19, 2011 by montie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
June Posted August 19, 2011 Report Share Posted August 19, 2011 I think your right shirlmeister problems do lie in the N/L but I dont think it'll change until all promoters agree to it being a developement league, Last year Scunny had practically a full team of youngsters newish to competative speedway. Our team average was way below most others. We stuck with our lads not expecting to win or even come close to winning the league whilst some of the other teams used mostly experienced riders. ( yes I know we used the brilliant BUZZ ) very useful he was too. One older experienced rider can work wonders as a coach. At Scunny practices and amateur meetings we see plenty of youngsters, some probably lose interest due to lack of racing opportunities. ( unsure ) the moral of my story being that Scunny's stratagies worked. this years BRILLIANT TEAM is the result A huge well done SAINTS! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrMungo Posted August 19, 2011 Report Share Posted August 19, 2011 Fascinating thread. Did Tom Stokes ride last year? I've been impressed by his progress, as I really thought he was one who might struggle this year. What happened to Oliver Greenwood? Is he still about? He seemed to have completly vanished off the radar. Maybe he got annoyed at the lack of opportunities for a British youngster? People like Portwood may not be at the NL level at the moment, but the only way they will improve is by riding as often as possible. Would it really be that damaging to the sport for each side to have a rookie at number 7 at the start of the season? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrystalCastles Posted August 19, 2011 Report Share Posted August 19, 2011 (edited) I think your right shirlmeister problems do lie in the N/L but I dont think it'll change until all promoters agree to it being a developement league, Last year Scunny had practically a full team of youngsters newish to competative speedway. Our team average was way below most others. We stuck with our lads not expecting to win or even come close to winning the league whilst some of the other teams used mostly experienced riders. ( yes I know we used the brilliant BUZZ ) very useful he was too. One older experienced rider can work wonders as a coach. At Scunny practices and amateur meetings we see plenty of youngsters, some probably lose interest due to lack of racing opportunities. ( unsure ) the moral of my story being that Scunny's stratagies worked. this years BRILLIANT TEAM is the result A huge well done SAINTS! I think you misread what i said "It shows that the real problems with British Speedway occur before the NL." Lack of kids, lack of training opportunities, a big jump between amateur speedway & NL, cost. No support for families who are struggling to be able to afford to make end meets to give there kid a chance to ride. Lack of riders coming in from other related sports. A downturn in riders taking up things like grasstrack. No junior speedway i.e. 80cc 125cc All those are bigger problems. The NL is by no means perfect, and there are problems with it, that can be improved but the NL will never has or will be solely a development league. So the NL has to do the best it can to support all its member teams, that means comprimising on ideals for the good of the people riding in it, which is far more important than what anybody thinks is specifically wrong with the NL.What is imperative is that it is competitive and it gives opportunities for new riders to have a go. Currently the last two years its been at its best imo for about a decade. However i dont think we have had as many youngsters to have come through and be ready this year compared to last year. What they need to do is think outside the box and try something new next year. Id like to see them bring in a rule where 1 overseas rider with patriality/dual nationality is permitted and people stop moaning about it but they must commit to ride for an entire season and in the main body & on a higher average if it ment retaining oppurtunities for them. Id like to see teams build to 6 man teams, with 10 team places at number 7 kept open (on the basis of teams in the NL this year) if there were 10 new riders who are availble to ride in the NL next year, they all get rostered as number 7s but not tied to a club. -only ride twice at a track representing a home side once & an away side once, -they also race against each other member of the 10 twice. -all meeetings would be predetermined in a draw as to who goes what & where before the season. -all riders are obligated to complete these fixtures -no team can make a change to these riders unless injured when a replacement will be chosen (if there are sufficient riders available underneath the 10 that are guaranteed places who perhaps are not ready to commit to riding 18 meetings) A development league in theory could work but it would have to strip away existing team names, riders allegences to clubs. In such a way that teams were run by british speedway for the good of british speedway, irrespective of what promotions do or don't do atm not one of them is in the NL for the good of british speedway over there individual club,no rider turns out for any of the teams that are named,team A,B,C,D,E,F,G,H,I,J,K on more than X number of occasions, they don't ride a track on more than X number of occasions. As for Scunny, the work done by your team is fantastic, but your in a fortunate situation compared to a lot of other tracks & areas with regards to the uptake of speedway & of other similar sports. Its dissapointing from a neutral perspective that Scunny haven't given the same opportunities afforded to riders this year as they did last year as that was fab, especially if you still have a lot of amateur meetings & practices with plenty of youngsters. However that will come down to winning and why not, as i said those lads deserve the opportunity to try to win it this year, as do all you fans who support the NL team up at Scunny. Edited August 19, 2011 by shirlmeister general Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
montie Posted August 19, 2011 Report Share Posted August 19, 2011 Its dissapointing from a neutral perspective that Scunny haven't given the same opportunities afforded to riders this year as they did last year as that was fab, especially if you still have a lot of amateur meetings & practices with plenty of youngsters. However that will come down to winning and why not, as i said those lads deserve the opportunity to try to win it this year, as do all you fans who support the NL team up at Scunny. We would all love to see a new team of youngsters i guess,but i think you have to give the development time,more than one season,Worrall and Birks and to an extent Irving broke into speedway last year and went well,yet this year,in year two they are all nigh on touching 9 point averages,so you would say year two has show huge progress again,[including all getting PL berths].i think two years is good time scale for rookies, Also SG,you forgot to mention one of scunnys biggest assets,Stu Parnaby,his work with these guys is fantastic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrystalCastles Posted August 19, 2011 Report Share Posted August 19, 2011 We would all love to see a new team of youngsters i guess,but i think you have to give the development time,more than one season,Worrall and Birks and to an extent Irving broke into speedway last year and went well,yet this year,in year two they are all nigh on touching 9 point averages,so you would say year two has show huge progress again,[including all getting PL berths].i think two years is good time scale for rookies, Also SG,you forgot to mention one of scunnys biggest assets,Stu Parnaby,his work with these guys is fantastic I agree I think we all would Montie, whatever side of the fence any of us sit on any of the issues of the NL or British speedway. A few core ideals are clear, we want it to be successful in the future. We want more youngsters coming through. We want British speedway to be at as high a level as possible & successful. And most people who post in the NL section would be the ones to go and support a team of kids. Or the youth championship & the future. As you say development takes more than 1 season for most people at this level, so perhaps they could look at doing something on a 2/3 year timescale. Yeah I did sorry Montie. Stu Parnaby deserves a mention (thanks for pointing that out). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
June Posted August 19, 2011 Report Share Posted August 19, 2011 We would all love to see a new team of youngsters i guess,but i think you have to give the development time,more than one season,Worrall and Birks and to an extent Irving broke into speedway last year and went well,yet this year,in year two they are all nigh on touching 9 point averages,so you would say year two has show huge progress again,[including all getting PL berths].i think two years is good time scale for rookies, Also SG,you forgot to mention one of scunnys biggest assets,Stu Parnaby,his work with these guys is fantastic Spot on montie.......we should also mention the really bad winter we had last year. a lot of the weekends were written off due to either "frozen track or snow" wasn't Scunny covered in snow for about 5-6 weeks and we were all fed up with the stuff lol. Dead right about Stuart Parnaby he's amazing with the youngsters, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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