Swc Changes Needed ?

[Daniel Smith]

I honestly do now like the joker although I'd call it something else.

 

In reality it can only give a team an extra 3 points for a win but it's much much more than that. Take what happened to Poland after Gollob went out and smashed it. It gives riders a lift, inspires the team to go on and turn the meeting around. A genuine buzz comes in. It's all a mental thing but it works.

 

Had Gollob won the race under normal circumstances Australia could have gone on to win the meeting with ease but that little 'pick me up' Joker ride from Gollob made all the difference. It made a difference to me too, we certainly wouldn't of had all that excitement right up to heat 24 that's for sure without it.

[bigcatdiary]

BUT they weren't wrong ... the information they had (as did we in the pits, which is why Crump was lined-up ready to come out as the joker, was that Ward had finished last.

 

It was only when the referee was informed that Australia were playing their joker that it came to light that the wrong information had been relayed to the TV truck, from where the graphics are operated, and indeed to the Race Director. Cannot blame Sky, who were just one of many taking their info from the host broadcasters, or indeed either Nigel or Kelvin who were simply acting on the info coming through their headsets and the pictures from the pits that had Crump on the grid.

 

 

So basically they should all have waited until Jim Lawrence declared the race officially, which is his decision alone to make.

 

Having been given wrong info Sky made a meal out of Lawrence changing his mind, which to be fair is completely untrue, despite Sky now knowing the full facts they havent corrected the mistake after saying they would. !!

 

Think perhaps in the future everyone should take of who makes the decision - The Referee, especially when its not clear who finished where.

Edited July 19, 2011 by bigcatdiary

[PHILIPRISING]

The team has always been called Great Britain, according to FIM documentation.

 

All the best

Rob

 

THIS has always been a bone of contention but it is Great Britain and not England, Scotland, Wales or indeed Northern Ireland that is affiliated to the FIM.

[PHILIPRISING]

So basically they should all have waited until Jim Lawrence declared the race officially, which is his decision alone to make.

 

Having been given wrong info Sky made a meal out of Lawrence changing his mind, which to be fair is completely untrue, despite Sky now knowing the full facts they havent corrected the mistake after saying they would. !!

 

Think perhaps in the future everyone should take of who makes the decision - The Referee, especially when its not clear who finished where.

 

SORRY but I think you are making a mountain out of a mole hill... there was a breakdown in communication which was not fault of Sky, Pearson or Tatum and there were many (including the Race Director) who thought they had the right decision. I cannot remember it happening before and hopefully it won't again.

[lucifer sam]

I WOULDN'T say I like it but I understand why it is there. I think us Brits get more worked up about it partly because our interpretation of "joker" is different from that of fans abroad who, from the evidence of my own eyes, have no problem with it.

 

And, like it or not, we live in a commercial world and the TV channels love it especially when, as on Saturday, it helps create a close finish. That will not please the purists in the UK but we are now such a small player in world speedway that our opinions and views carry rapidly decreasing weight.

 

Lots of sports, notably cricket, create rules designed to improve the TV spectacle as well as for those watching live. I very much doubt whether many of the 15,000 fans in Gorzow on Saturday have a problem with the joker.

 

Does cricket or any other sport have a "double points" rule, though? I could be wrong, but I can't think of any other sport which does this?

 

What's wrong with just having tactical subs to keep the score close? If there has to be a double points rule, then at least there should be a 15m handicap at the start or something along those lines, so that the competitor has to earn the extra points. Double points from the gate just holds up the whole event to ridicule (as it does with domestic speedway in this country). Is it a World Championship event or a circus?

 

EDIT: As for the Poles, they might have had a problem if the 2009 final happened in reverse, i.e. they were the beat team on the day, but ended second due to an extra two points being given to one of their opponents.

 

All the best

Rob

Edited July 19, 2011 by lucifer sam

[Robbie B]

This sounds like a similar format i came up with a few years ago which I think would work and it makes it a team event.

I think mine though swapped pairings about during the meeting and the last few heats ended up so that all the 1s and 2s raced each other again. I binned it so can't remember now.

 

The Golden Wonder four team tournament, where teams raced in pairings, was raced at Wimbledon Thursday 6 July, in 1978, this is where I got this idea from.

 

Just for the record the result of the meeting was: Wimbledon 31 (Edward Jancarz 11, Mick Hines 9, Roger Johns 8, Larry Ross 3): Cradley Heath 24 (Brunce Penhall 11, Alan Grahame 7, Pekka Hautamaji 5, Bruce Cribb 1): Belle Vue 22 (Chris Morton 9, Peter Collins 8, Les Collins 3, Chris Turner 2): Bristol 19 (Phil Crump 9, Colin Richardson 7 (as replacement for Steve Gresham),Tormod Langli 2, Nigel Boocock 1).

 

An earleir Cronus Four Team Tournament was postponed, at Wimbledon, on Monday 1st May 1978. Which would have featured teams from Wimbledon, King's Lynn, White City and Swindon.

Edited July 19, 2011 by Robbie B

[PHILIPRISING]

Does cricket or any other sport have a "double points" rule, though? I could be wrong, but I can't think of any other sport which does this?

 

What's wrong with just having tactical subs to keep the score close? If there has to be a double points rule, then at least there should be a 15m handicap at the start or something along those lines, so that the competitor has to earn the extra points. Double points from the gate just holds up the whole event to ridicule (as it does with domestic speedway in this country). Is it a World Championship event or a circus?

 

EDIT: As for the Poles, they might have had a problem if the 2009 final happened in reverse, i.e. they were the beat team on the day, but ended second due to an extra two points being given to one of their opponents.

 

All the best

Rob

 

I CAN only reiterate what I said earlier ... fans in the UK get much more in a state about the joker than elsewhere and nobody in Gorzow thought they were at a circus. We need to accept and understand that the view of British fans is often very diverse from those abroad and our voice is very much diminished these days. In fact, we are pretty much ignored for all sorts of reasons.

[arnieg]

I CAN only reiterate what I said earlier ... fans in the UK get much more in a state about the joker than elsewhere and nobody in Gorzow thought they were at a circus. We need to accept and understand that the view of British fans is often very diverse from those abroad and our voice is very much diminished these days. In fact, we are pretty much ignored for all sorts of reasons.

And of course it is not unique to Britain. It has spread from here to Denmark, Czech Republic and Russia. It has also been used in the Polish league.

[Humphrey Appleby]

THIS has always been a bone of contention but it is Great Britain and not England, Scotland, Wales or indeed Northern Ireland that is affiliated to the FIM.

 

To be precise, Northern Ireland technically isn't included under 'Great Britain' in speedway terms as the whole of Ireland is separately affiliated to the FIM.

 

In years gone by, the ACU also covered much of the Commonwealth, hence why Australian and New Zealanders rode for 'Great Britain'.

[Humphrey Appleby]

Another racing formula you could use for World cups is.

Teams of four riders, with a reserve that can come in at any time. No Joker.

Riders race in pairs (ex; A 1&2 vs B 1&2, the C 1&2, D 1&2, B 3&4, C 3&4, D 3&4 etc) they then would race against each teams pairings, thus having six rides. The meeting would then consists of 24 heats.

 

It's already been tried in the WTC, circa 2000 and 2001. I personally thought it was a better format because it allowed for team riding, but it seems it was perceived to be open to manipulation.

 

The current format isn't too bad, although I'd prefer 4 rider teams + 1 reserve as it would probably make for more competitive racing earlier in the competition.

[DukesGreg]

I'm still fascinated that we've had THE best World Cup for ages and people on here are trying to introduce something or change it for the better.

 

 

I wouldn't knock the joker as a Brit, it will only work FOR us now as a nation and will never backfire on us in a month of Sundays... we're a beneficiary of the 'helping hand' system!! We should be allowed TWO of the bloody things!!

 

Great World Cup, and the atmosphere, the way the stadium is in Poland, and the atmosphere their fans bring to speedway (the British GP would be flatter without them) makes for a great event.

 

 

We're not gonna win the thing as long as I have a nose to balance spectacles on... keep the thing where it is too for me now... or bring it to Cardiff at least.

[HenryW]

The team has always been called Great Britain, according to FIM documentation.

Are you sure about that?

 

In 1973 and before, Great Britain raced in the World Cup.

From 1974 until 1977, England and Scotland entered separately before the Scottish place was taken by the USA in 1978.

 

Surely both teams weren't officially listed as Great Britain by the FIM during those years, were they?

[lucifer sam]

Are you sure about that?

 

In 1973 and before, Great Britain raced in the World Cup.

From 1974 until 1977, England and Scotland entered separately before the Scottish place was taken by the USA in 1978.

 

Surely both teams weren't officially listed as Great Britain by the FIM during those years, were they?

 

HenryW, an interesting question. Even though the team were known as England for years, the official name was Great Britain. But it does beg the question what the Scotland team were officially called? Does it mean that there were actually two Great Britain sides in the competition? One for Humphrey to investigate.

 

All the best

Rob

[HenryW]

HenryW, an interesting question. Even though the team were known as England for years, the official name was Great Britain. But it does beg the question what the Scotland team were officially called? Does it mean that there were actually two Great Britain sides in the competition? One for Humphrey to investigate.

Thinking about it, I guess it is possible that in the eyes of the FIM they were actually just Great Britain and Great Britain II. There were often years where the Continental rounds had 2 teams from one Nation as other Countries struggled to provide a team.

 

I guess it wasn't too much of a worry as Scotland were never going to get out of the British based qualifying round

[Humphrey Appleby]

Surely both teams weren't officially listed as Great Britain by the FIM during those years, were they?

 

I believe they actually were, at least according to the FIM records. In the WTC, it would seem the qualifying round involving England, Scotland, Australia and New Zealand was to determine the ACU representative (although Australia became affiliated to the FIM in their own right around 1976, although NZ not until 1984).

 

In the World Pairs, it's true that both England and Scotland appeared in at least one World Final together, but one assumes they were considered GB 1 and GB 2. A number of countries entered multiple pairs over the years, so it's not an unreasonable assumption. Certainly the records I've seen listed 'England' as Great Britain, and then Scotland separately.

 

Of course, this being speedway, the rules were probably made up as they went along and trying to make sense of it now is probably futile...

[lucifer sam]

Interesting. And it begs one more question: when Australia won the World Team Cup in 1976 and New Zealand in 1979, were they actually the "Great Britain" team?

 

All the best

Rob

[Humphrey Appleby]

Interesting. And it begs one more question: when Australia won the World Team Cup in 1976 and New Zealand in 1979, were they actually the "Great Britain" team?

 

Australia is listed as being affiliated to the FIM in 1975, so presumably they were a team in their own right then. New Zealand is a bit of grey area as they had their own federation which was an affiliate of the ACU (as for example, is the Scottish ACU). However, the MNZ website says itself that Kiwis rode as British riders until 1983, so presumably their WTC win was technically as the 'British' team.

Edited July 19, 2011 by Humphrey Appleby

[MattK]

It's funny how people bitch and moan about the BSPA making idle and pointless changes to the leagues, yet here we have seven pages of changes purely for the sake of change, to the excellent format that is the SWC.

 

The only thing I would change is... only joking!

[lucifer sam]

Australia is listed as being affiliated to the FIM in 1975, so presumably they were a team in their own right then. New Zealand is a bit of grey area as they had their own federation which was an affiliate of the ACU (as for example, is the Scottish ACU). However, the MNZ website says itself that Kiwis rode as British riders until 1983, so presumably their WTC win was technically as the 'British' team.

 

We'll claim that one then. We'll also claim the World Championship successes of Lionel Van Praag, Bluey Wilkinson, Jack Young, Ronnie Moore, Barry Briggs and Ivan Mauger.

 

All the best

Rob

[ImpartialOne]

The only thing I would change is... only joking!

it's the joking bit most of us want changing.

 

As a compromise, if a team is 8 points behind (I'm not comfortable that a team can level the scores with double points) they should start slightly behind the rest. I've no problem with double points from a handicap start, and would suggest for a SWC event 10 meters rather than an almost impossible 15.