Buxton V Dudley Heathens

[brindlew]

To have waited so long to make your first post you must be feeling very strongly Brindlew, but welcome to the forum, 21st i know you are probably trying to bring this back to the RACING, but this sort of accusation/actions must be nipped in the bud, after all Jayne is the Buxton promoter, we came back last season with lots of goodwill, slowly but surely we are losing some of that, its NO good trying to sweep these actions by a Minority under the carpet, Nigel must bring this to the fore, in the media, and make it known in NO uncertain terms in the media, that this type of behavior is totally unacceptable.

Yes you hit the nail on the head, although I read the forum regularly, I never felt the need to post.

Sorry if I came across a bit strong, but I dont want to see a family sport that I love to be involved in, dragged down.

[bruno]

Not true Dudley fans had been making gestures and shouting obscenities well before heat 15. You may bring extra revenue but you also bring extra trouble. Last years events saw Dudley supporters threatening to 'sort out' Buxton riders and glass supporters. As for heat 15 is it OK for a rider from any team to hit out at an official who is just trying to do their job. Don't know if you have any sway with the club but wish you would sort the trouble makers out and solve which, from a Buxton perspective, certainly is an ongoing issue.

this is rubbish jayne ashley morris did not hit out at the official the official grabbed him. CHECK THE VIDEO

[speedwaysquashman]

Good post, it is a minority few who are the big idiots like the guy at Belle Vue who threw a punch and tried to grab Belle Vue fan by the throat BUT at Belle Vue and from what I've been told at Buxton today the majority (not all, but most) of Dudley fans were cheering every time an opposing rider fell off.

 

As a neutral and an SCB registered track official I accept that the referee made his decision for his own reasons. He had to make a decision and stick by it.

What I do not accept is fans applauding a riders mistake, perhaps some jovial reaction to an innocuous looking slide off at low speed if the rider is clearly ok. However. even those can hurt. But when a rider high sides trying to race and entertain us, like Garrity did, no wonder tempers flare when those close to riders react when their lad could have sustained a serious injury. Some there today, unfortunately have witnessed the ultimate injury, so those 'fans' who thought it funny think about it.

 

The final losers of the day were the handful of juniors, caught up innocently in all of the tension that spilled over at the end, who lost the opportunity to have a ride after all it will have cost them/parents to have prepared for that expected ride.

 

Those responsible for their disgraceful behaviour are not doing British speedway any good. I hope Nigel Pearson has a word in the right ears.

[Fourentee]

Good post, it is a minority few who are the big idiots like the guy at Belle Vue who threw a punch and tried to grab Belle Vue fan by the throat BUT at Belle Vue and from what I've been told at Buxton today the majority (not all, but most) of Dudley fans were cheering every time an opposing rider fell off.

I wasn't at Belle Vue. There were two home falls at Buxton today, the first of which was Luke Priest's very nasty looking crash after clipping Jon Armstrong's back wheel. That was greeted with silence (it was clearly a heavy one) and a few shocked exclamations of "Oh!" followed by applause when Priest eventually got up. He was also applauded on the walk back to the pits, which took him past the Dudley fans who were gathered largely by or near the starting gate.

The second fall, that of Jason Garrity in heat 15, was certainly cheered loudly. By way of explanation, though not of excuse, it didn't look initially anything like as dangerous as the Priest fall (although in the event Garrity was a long time getting up and clearly felt the impact), it confirmed the result of the meeting and tensions were by that time running very high. Garrity was also applauded on his way back to the pits.

But, no, they should not have cheered it. I am merely attempting from a speedway fan's perspective to set the context.

With regard to other posts alleging Ashley Morris hitting out at the starting marshall, I certainly saw nothing remotely resembling a blow or even an arm being raised. I watched the meeting one pace back from the fence (which many will know is very close to the track itself), perhaps a yard in advance of the starting gate. Morris was on gate four.

Edited June 5, 2011 by Fourentee

[guesty1992]

I was at the meeting today and everything was running as normal and was perfectly fine until the pre heat 15 incident which was instigated by the start marshall and no-one can question that. All four riders were holding back and messing with their bikes, he asked all 4 riders to start approaching the tapes, he then grabbed Morris' front wheel who then rolled back a bit which was then followed by the start marshall go up to Ash, point at him directly yelling, followed by a clear push to the shoulder and that is when Ash stood up from his saddle. The start marshall then pushed him again and continued to point. As anyone would in this situation Ash just stood his ground and had words with him which then the start marshall exchanged with another shove. All of this was caught on camera by whatever company was there filming. Armo then came over just to tell the start marshall to calm down. Ash was then excluded for his actions even though he did nothing wrong what so ever and did not instigate it. The refs next three decisions were just as bad! Armo didn't roll on either occasion yet Allott was rolling way before the tapes went up in the millionth re-run. As for the trouble, yes there is the odd idiot but there is at a lot of clubs and yes I agree it is those fans who need to be given a warning. Banter has always been there between Speedway fans. The Heathens fans had a reason to voice their disgust at the decision today as the incident was started by a so called official who lost all sense of professionalism. To make things worse, it was then also a disgrace that the Heathens riders weren't allowed out on track to say thankyou to their supporters. If we look at the racing, not a lot can be said, a very poor track set-up yet again. I would just like to add, I am a Wolves follower so am definitely not biased on this one I am just saying exactly how things went

[deathbymilkfloat]

i have just started supporting the heathens,on the matter of wednesday there was not a punch thrown by the dudley fan,he did grab the belle vue fan by the throat,only minutes before the belle vue fan had been mouthing off to other dudley supporters and i could sense this coming as i was only yards away from the alleged rumpus,more like hand bags at 10 paces.As for today everything was calm until heat 15 when the start marshall official man handled ashley morris(just imagine if howard webb done that to wayne rooney,rooney would have flattened him,i think the fans had every right to voice their opinion after that episode,as for the cheering when garrity fell i think this was more in relief and that justice had been done for the morris incident as a 5-1 in buxtons favour would have got them a much undeserved draw,after heat 15 when armstrong came round celebrating victory,i got some abuse of an old lady in a blue anorak all i was doing was applauding him,i smiled at her and asked her what the score was,then left for a victorious journey home.

[manchesterpaul]

Getting piffed off with these contradictions

 

BSPA say Buxton 44 Dudley 47

Speedway Updates says Buxton 44 Dudley 46

 

WHO IS RIGHT???

 

For now i'll update the tables as per BSPA version, although that has not been faultless so far this season.

WHAT OTHER SPORT CAN FAIL TO RELAY THE ACTUAL FINAL SCORE, BE IT FROM SOMEONE IN THE STANDS OR THE OFFICIAL SOURCE (WHICH HAS BEEN WRONG THIS SEASON)

Edited June 5, 2011 by manchesterpaul

[shad176]

there wasnt any updates...the one you looked at wes from the n/s meeting...44-47 correct now calm down Edited June 5, 2011 by wembley81

[21st century heathen]

Four.

 

Thank you.

 

----------------------------

 

First of all I wasn't there but I've read everything (up to about 9pm), so I see it like this.

 

The start marshal is supposed to bring the riders to the tapes in gate order. Therefore, Ash should have been the last to be called to tapes. If the other riders had not been called to tapes and the green start light was not on then he was within his rights to sit back. There is nothing in the rules, as far as I know, that specifically entitles nor prevents the start marshal from touching the rider or his machine (though it even annoys me as a fan when they do so it must make riders fume!). Technically should the start marshall 'pull' at the rider he has assaulted him so common sense suggests this should not be allowed. If riders refuse to come to tapes when ordered to by the start marshall they are breaking the rules on the start procedure and it should be up to the ref to determine whether the start marshall is doing his job properly and if the rider is at fault he should be disqualified. There should be no reason for the start marshall to touch the rider or his machine, except perhaps a nudge to get his attention if he's away with the fairies (I'm sure we can all apply common sense as to what is getting someone's attention and what is 'pulling' at a rider or his machine). So in this regard it would appear that the start marshall may have started the ill-feeling with his actions, and specifically that he does not appear to have followed the start procedure correctly. However, and it's a big however, Ash is bound by the rules to comply with the instructions of the start marshal regardless of whether he has made a mistake or not. In that regard I can see that the ref could rightly disqualify Ash. It may seem harsh but as someone has already posted perhaps a few more riders being disqualified for delaying the start is what it might take to get the riders to comply with the start marshal's instruction. That would have been enough to upset any set of suppporters but to compound it by throwing Ash out of the rest of the meeting, and in doing so not allowing the Heathens a chance to take all the points, seems a massive over-reaction and something I have never seen before. In fact the only time I can recall seeing a rider thrown out of meeting was when Martin Dugard punched Stefan Andersson at Eastbourne. Was this incident in the same bracket as that? I rather suspect it was not even in the same metaphorical sentence! I can well imagine the Heathens fans were, rightly in my opinion, furious with this and an angry reaction doesn't surprise me in the slightest. But make no mistake there would have been a furious reaction by any club's fans in the same circumstance. The officials, rather like football players, should realise that their actions can have consequences on the terrace. That is not to suggest they can't or shouldn't carry out their duties properly, but that 'pushing' or 'pulling' a rider will 'p' him off and get the fans 'going' and for a ref to throw a rider out of a meeting for what seems to be nothing more or less than a start line bust up, which we see up and down the country ever week, lacks common sense.

 

Once again I wasn't there so the following is general rather than specific to anything that may, or may not, have happened this afternoon.

 

Do fans cheers when a rider falls? Yes. Do fans cheer when a rider crashes? No, not in my experience. And therein lies the diffenence when this argument comes up every year or two on here. Fans are cheering the fact that the opposition have been disadvantaged by one of their riders not finishing that race, or throwing points away at least. You'll hear far more loud cheers when a rider slides off when leading than when one slides off 40 metres at the back. Fans cheers when a rider fails to make the two minutes, or has a machine failure, or touches the tapes or otherwise gives their team an advantage in a heat. Any suggestion, and it's implied by some, that any fans want to see riders hurt is insulting, inaccurate and uncalled for. Heathens fans know only too well that speedway riders can be seriously injured. In a short time back in the day Cradley saw three riders seriously injured and sadly we saw one of our own lose his life for the sport we all love.

 

Accusations of Heathens fans flicking a 'v' at the ref and the start marshal and swearing is no surprise nor really worthy of the kind of response it seems to be getting. I see people flick a 'v' or give the 'w' action every time I watch a football match. I hear swearing, and sometimes from kids as young as some that are reportedly upset after this afternoon's meeting, when I'm out and about. However, the line must be drawn at aggresive behaviour towards other fans, or if it were done one-on-one (so-to-speak) with the ref or start marshal for that matter. I'm all for group banter, God knows we and the Wolves fans gave each other enough stick but that was kinda 500 of us mouthing off at 1,000 of them and visa versa not aggresive one-on-one behaviour. There's no place in the sport for that and I would hope that if this has been the case with a few Heathens fans then the majority will make sure it's stamped out.

 

Heathens fans are undeniably passionate about their speedway so if you're expecting a quiet evening sipping Pims and munching cucumber sandwiches I would suggest you're watching the wrong kind of horsepower. The Heathens fans back their team in numbers and make a whole lot of noise about it. Perhaps this is something that has slowly changed in the time we've been away? When I saw "we've been away" I mean the Heathens fans en masse, as I continued to watch from '98 onwards (one season with no speedway was enough for me so I started going again - to Wolves to support the visitors and then likewise to Cov and B'ham). It has seemed to me int hat time that fans generally speaking are not as vocal as they used to be. Perhaps that's due to being used to the cut and thrust of Cradley v Wolves/Coventry meetings?! From what I hear many clubs, particularly at this level, don't get very big crowds and there are a number of new clubs that weren't around in previous era's. Perhaps they're not used to hearing such vocal support?

[manchesterpaul]

there wasnt any updates...the one you looked at wes from the n/s meeting...44-47 correct now calm down

 

Lol sincerest thanks for preserving my fragile sanity.

 

Thought i was doing a 'Black Sabbath' (am i going insane) I soooooo did not clock the date.

Edited June 5, 2011 by manchesterpaul

[Dekker]

Let us hope that all those involved in this matter are suitably proud of themselves.

No great surprise your wiping it all under the carpet, are we gonna see abuse given out to any official who happens to rule against the really heathen Heathens.

[shad176]

]

 

Thought i was doing a 'Black Sabbath' (am i going insane) I soooooo did not clock the date. black sabbath vol 4...i am on that album

[shad176]

No great surprise your wiping it all under the carpet, are we gonna see abuse given out to any official who happens to rule against the really heathen Heathens.

^^^^ Edited June 5, 2011 by wembley81

[Fourentee]

I blame Tom Perry (if he'd stopped on in heat 14, no last-heat decider and no stress!).

Edited June 5, 2011 by Fourentee

[RogerM]

Not true Dudley fans had been making gestures and shouting obscenities well before heat 15. You may bring extra revenue but you also bring extra trouble. Last years events saw Dudley supporters threatening to 'sort out' Buxton riders and glass supporters. As for heat 15 is it OK for a rider from any team to hit out at an official who is just trying to do their job. Don't know if you have any sway with the club but wish you would sort the trouble makers out and solve which, from a Buxton perspective, certainly is an ongoing issue.

No it's not OK Jayne, but reading the posts thus far most of the evidence appears not to point to Ashley Morris. Having attended and watched an awful lot of Speedway down the years, I can't recall ever having seen a Start Marshall do any more than gesticulate or pat a front tyre to indicate to a rider that he should come to the tapes let alone physically interact with them! If it does indeed become apparent that the Start Marshall 'overstepped the mark' so to speak then hopefully some counselling as to his required impartiality will be offered.

 

Please be assured that we at Dudley Heathens, having come so far in our fight to return and re-establish ourselves in the Sport take these things very seriously and we WILL take steps to eradicate such behaviour within our fan base for the good of ourselves and the Speedway community as a whole. However, as I am sure you would agree, we cannot be held responsible for the actions of others that promote the problems in the first place.

 

This whole incident has left a bitter aftertaste to what was an exciting contest between two committed teams. We should all do our utmost to learn from it and do whatever we can to ensure that Speedway remains a popular and safe

attraction to be enjoyed by all!

[greyhoundp]

21st, I always like to read your balanced comments on these situations, what we must try to remember when we how shall i say "abuse" opposing riders, the NL primarily has "Boys" riding and not men, and IF spectators do "Bully" Young opposing supporters then it has to be stamped out, Yes Speedway is a hard Sport where riders risk life and limb for our benefit, and Yes opposing Teams should realise Heathens fans are not as Sir alec Ferguson says "Prawn Sandwich" brigade, but there is a line...which must be drawn..

[Jayne]

I did check the facts Jayne, Garrity was excluded by the referee for delaying the start and that was announced by Peter Morrish.

Jason changed his bike at the start line and then proceeded to 'Garden' his gate despite the Start Marshall asking him to come to the tapes, result, Red lights and Black flag for JG. It was then announced that he would start from 15 Metres back and a fresh 2 Minute allowance came into force.

 

Apologies I thought you were talking about todays meeting wouldn't have a clue about it if it was at Monmore Green.

[speedy bill]

I did check the facts Jayne, Garrity was excluded by the referee for delaying the start and that was announced by Peter Morrish.

Jason changed his bike at the start line and then proceeded to 'Garden' his gate despite the Start Marshall asking him to come to the tapes, result, Red lights and Black flag for JG. It was then announced that he would start from 15 Metres back and a fresh 2 Minute allowance came into force.

brown ivor was you even there today.your facts are completly cuckoo.GARRITY was excluded for falling or being helped off trying to get round Armo.and you would see red if someone was cheering the fact your 17 year old grandson was lying in a heap you not noing if he was injured or not.Ifeel sorry for Will Pottinger and his riders having so many crackpots as so called supporters.I have friends who are Heathens fans and they dont behave badly,but like to see the team do well.Come on Dudley sort out the bad apples and send them to watch football thats where they belong.ups so did i

Edited June 5, 2011 by bw double

[Heathen1984]

So many crackpots as fans, behave will ya. Y is it just us dudleys fans getting an hard time wen clearly things av been said from a Buxton end but seems ok for that.

[jewson34]

Hi,

 

I'm new to this site but felt the need to join and explain something.

 

I was one of the people cheering ar Jason fell, not because he fell but was cheering on Jon, to be honest I didn't see Jason fall and my cheers changed to oooohhhs when I saw a rider down. It took me a while before I noticed he had gone down again because I was watching Jon. I also clapped Jason as he got up and as he came past us walking back to the pits.

 

Fair enough some people probably were cheering because Jason went down, but others like me and my family were cheering our team on. I am a parent and would not like to see anyones child hurt no matter how old they are.

 

No one cheered when Luke fell and Jason was clapped back to the pits by Heathens fans and Buxton fans alike.

 

I love speedway because it is somewhere I can take my family without the trouble that you normally get at other sports.

 

Yes the heathens fans are passionate and I do think Ash was treated really badly by the start marshall, he looked very aggressive towards Ash. My sis in law was hit by the start marshalls car coming through the 'turnstiles' last time we were at Buxton, my brother said to him you just hit my wife's leg, he got a mouthful of abuse. The car was only going slowly and my sis in law wasn't hurt, a little shook up but not hurt. They decided not to take it further.

I'm not sure if it was the same guy, if so maybe he needs to get some help with his anger.

This does not excuse the bad behaviour of some of the supporters but there was definately fault on both sides.

 

Sorry for waffling.