Italian Gp Terenzano

[The White Knight]

this is not new though WK is it? IMG and BSI have been doing this for years........ it kills some of the romance of the world championships and that is difficult to defend.... just like a devaluation of the FA cup, Wimbledon, or a British F1 GP

 

but the irony is that anyone would find it extremely difficult to find stronger lineups in the world championships than we have had for the last couple of years.....

 

Who knows spook? Nobody else gets a chance.

 

There is always the possibility of a real surprise from one of the lesser lights.

 

I will trot out my favourite mantra again - Jack Young who won the World Championship as a Second Division Rider would have NO CHANCE nowadays. How can you justify that?

Edited August 4, 2011 by The White Knight

[george.m]

 

As others have said he seems to rely on his gating and when behind he doesn't look comfortable to me but I'm sure he can develop these areas with a bit of guidance.

 

Last few weeks he has been a bit inconsistent and a bit 'wobbly' at times. Overall though he's not someone I'd say relies on gating, though having seen him in EL on SKY I can understand why someone would think that.

 

Against Edinburgh on Sunday he was superb. Head and shoulders above everyone else when it came to blocking and overtaking others. Hopefully his heat 15 appears on YouTube as it was worth the admission money and credit to Matty Wethers for his part in an exciting race

[george.m]

Who knows spook? Nobody else gets a chance.

 

There is always the possibility of a real surprise from one of the lesser lights.

 

I will trot out my favourite mantra again - Jack Young who won the World Championship as a Second Division Rider would have NO CHANCE nowadays. How can you justify that?

 

That must have been amazing for his fans and almost incomprehensible for most fans nowadays!

[spook]

Who knows spook? Nobody else gets a chance.

 

There is always the possibility of a real surprise from one of the lesser lights.

 

I will trot out my favourite mantra again - Jack Young who won the World Championship as a Second Division Rider would have NO CHANCE nowadays. How can you justify that?

 

 

In my lifetime there have been 2nd division riders who have made it all the way or gave it a damn good go in qualification...... the last of which was Stoney .............. my favourite campaign was Martin Goodwin's

 

I guess a major difference between now and Jack Young's time is that it is a GP series........ the very nature of which massively reduces what was a season long qualifying campaign as it would surely be impossible to run both together and expect riders to turn out for league clubs as well.......... consequently the qualifying doesn't involve as many 2nd tier riders as it once did

 

Unless you are proposing a return to the old world final format then it is difficult to argue against a lot of what has been honed and refined within the GP system. Is a return for the top 8 without sense? Is a WC on the night for a 16th rider unreasonable? .......... there is an argument that there should be less permanent WC's for IMG to dish out and more qualifying spots...permanent WC's in my opinion should be about injury eg Sayfutdinov.... but even then despite those coming from the GP qualifier perhaps having more of a moral right, they usually disappoint and prop up the standings the following season.

 

I'm not sure what the answer is, but I do know that although they havent got everything right, IMG have got a hell of a lot right. I don't begrudge them the odd square block in round hole because the house of cards collapsing doesnt even bare thinking about

[JCookie]

Who knows spook? Nobody else gets a chance.

 

There is always the possibility of a real surprise from one of the lesser lights.

 

I will trot out my favourite mantra again - Jack Young who won the World Championship as a Second Division Rider would have NO CHANCE nowadays. How can you justify that?

 

How?

[The White Knight]

In my lifetime there have been 2nd division riders who have made it all the way or gave it a damn good go in qualification...... the last of which was Stoney .............. my favourite campaign was Martin Goodwin's

 

I guess a major difference between now and Jack Young's time is that it is a GP series........ the very nature of which massively reduces what was a season long qualifying campaign as it would surely be impossible to run both together and expect riders to turn out for league clubs as well.......... consequently the qualifying doesn't involve as many 2nd tier riders as it once did

 

Unless you are proposing a return to the old world final format then it is difficult to argue against a lot of what has been honed and refined within the GP system. Is a return for the top 8 without sense? Is a WC on the night for a 16th rider unreasonable? .......... there is an argument that there should be less permanent WC's for IMG to dish out and more qualifying spots...permanent WC's in my opinion should be about injury eg Sayfutdinov.... but even then despite those coming from the GP qualifier perhaps having more of a moral right, they usually disappoint and prop up the standings the following season.

 

I'm not sure what the answer is, but I do know that although they havent got everything right, IMG have got a hell of a lot right. I don't begrudge them the odd square block in round hole because the house of cards collapsing doesnt even bare thinking about

 

You reckon???

 

B****y Hell!!! - I give up. :rolleyes:

Edited August 5, 2011 by The White Knight

[ImpartialOne]

You reckon???

 

B****y Hell!!! - I give up. :rolleyes:

I would agree with spook. The Grand Prix is a much more professionally run tight ship than British Speedway is currently.

[HenryW]

IF that is the case then the Speedway World Championship is DEAD!!! Putting Riders in because of Financial implications, whilst more worthy Riders are left out would make a MOCKERY of the whole Sport of Speedway. Since when did BSI/SKY decide who is to be World Champion this is supposed to be a SPORT - that means the Championship SHOULD be won on ABILITY - NOT - CHARITY or FINANCIAL INTEREST!!! :mad:

That's a bit of an extreme reaction.

There have been very few years since the inception of the speedway world championship when there was a qualification system that allowed the top 16 in the World to make it to the Final. There have always been restrictions on the numbers from each country that had places in the qualifying rounds, so maybe the World Championship was never alive in the first place

 

I don't think it's right that a rider is given a place for Commercial reasons when there are potentially better riders out there, but I honestly don't think it's a problem for finding the World Champion. Once you get past the top 10 in the World, the standard of the next 10 to 20 riders down are all fairly similar. None of them is realistically going to win the GP series.

 

If there was a genuine title contender that was being left out to appease the Commercial desires that would be a different story, but that hasn't happened yet. In fact, BSI showed great sense in reducing the number of Brits in the series this year to accommodate Janusz Kolodziej, who did look like a genuine contender and had missed out.

[manchesterpaul]

I don't think it's right that a rider is given a place for Commercial reasons when there are potentially better riders out there, but I honestly don't think it's a problem for finding the World Champion. Once you get past the top 10 in the World, the standard of the next 10 to 20 riders down are all fairly similar. None of them is realistically going to win the GP series.

 

Excellent point regarding the non-effect on quality and of determining a true World Champion each season.

 

Unfortunately in this day and age every sport engineers their competitions and leagues so as to ensure that the stars and star teams don't get knocked out, and also that there is local representation in events. You see how even at the height of international Football continental championship games are played out in sparsely populated stadiums when there is no local representation. Speedway, and many other sports, can't afford to stage meetings and tournaments without local involvement if they wish to make them pay.

 

Practically every sport in the world has followed the truly awful American idea of play-offs to decide champions. Ok it brings in the fans for those specific meetings but devalues the whole of the preceding season.

 

By all means have a big money post regular season event with a play-off format. However, let's make sure that those who top the league after a long arduous season and prove themselves not mere one or two meeting wonders are crowned the LEAGUE Champions and receive a trophy. The play-off matches can be a separate competition to qualify for in it's own right.

Edited August 5, 2011 by manchesterpaul

[The White Knight]

Excellent point regarding the non-effect on quality and of determining a true World Champion each season.

 

Unfortunately in this day and age every sport engineers their competitions and leagues so as to ensure that the stars and star teams don't get knocked out, and also that there is local representation in events. You see how even at the height of international Football continental championship games are played out in sparsely populated stadiums when there is no local representation. Speedway, and many other sports, can't afford to stage meetings and tournaments without local involvement if they wish to make them pay.

 

Practically every sport in the world has followed the truly awful American idea of play-offs to decide champions. Ok it brings in the fans for those specific meetings but devalues the whole of the preceding season.

 

By all means have a big money post regular season event with a play-off format. However, let's make sure that those who top the league after a long arduous season and prove themselves not mere one or two meeting wonders are crowned the LEAGUE Champions and receive a trophy. The play-off matches can be a separate competition to qualify for in it's own right.

 

So - you are more or less admitting that Speedway is no longer a SPORT - but is actually a business enterprise. I know that I am old fashioned but I really did love it when Sport was played on a level playing field - and EVERYONE had a chance.

 

Money corrupts MOST things - certainly has in Speedway. Sold our soul to BSI/IMG - whoever they are?

 

Nobody 'FIXED' it for Peter Craven, Ivan Mauger, Peter Collins or Ole Olsen to be in the World Final they either QUALIFIED or....................................they didn't.

Edited August 5, 2011 by The White Knight

[manchesterpaul]

Excellent point regarding the non-effect on quality and of determining a true World Champion each season.

 

Unfortunately in this day and age every sport engineers their competitions and leagues so as to ensure that the stars and star teams don't get knocked out, and also that there is local representation in events. You see how even at the height of international Football continental championship games are played out in sparsely populated stadiums when there is no local representation. Speedway, and many other sports, can't afford to stage meetings and tournaments without local involvement if they wish to make them pay.

 

Practically every sport in the world has followed the truly awful American idea of play-offs to decide champions. Ok it brings in the fans for those specific meetings but devalues the whole of the preceding season.

 

By all means have a big money post regular season event with a play-off format. However, let's make sure that those who top the league after a long arduous season and prove themselves not mere one or two meeting wonders are crowned the LEAGUE Champions and receive a trophy. The play-off matches can be a separate competition to qualify for in it's own right.

 

 

So - you are more or less admitting that Speedway is no longer a SPORT - but is actually a business enterprise. I know that I am old fashioned but I really did love it when Sport was played on a level playing field - and EVERYONE had a chance.

 

OMG! i wasn't aware i was under interrogation - Spanish inquisition style It wasn't me who decreed Speedway follow other sports in their Americanization. I admit to nothing......i done nothing!

 

Only thing i would admit to is i love sport being undertaken in sporting ways when it comes to awarding the season long efforts of a champion team. Have the play-offs as a separate end of season trophy for the top teams, but please don't call the winners of it the LEAGUE champions. They are more a knock-out cup winner.

 

Be a good chap and make those involved in organizing the sport 'admit' not me lol.

Edited August 5, 2011 by manchesterpaul

[ImpartialOne]

I really did love it when Sport was played on a level playing field - and EVERYONE had a chance.

Sorry, but name a World Final where EVERYONE in the field had a realistic chance of being World Champion.

[JC!]

So - you are more or less admitting that Speedway is no longer a SPORT - but is actually a business enterprise. I know that I am old fashioned but I really did love it when Sport was played on a level playing field - and EVERYONE had a chance.

 

Money corrupts MOST things - certainly has in Speedway. Sold our soul to BSI/IMG - whoever they are?

 

Nobody 'FIXED' it for Peter Craven, Ivan Mauger, Peter Collins or Ole Olsen to be in the World Final they either QUALIFIED or....................................they didn't.

 

Interesting discussion this one, I used to love the old World Championship, but also feel that the Grand Prix are great too.

 

To play devils advocate I would say, whilst agreeing that the old system gave anyone a chance to be champion, that the Grand Prix preserves the integrity of the World Championship. I think that the ultimate goal of a World Championship should be to produce the best rider as champion and too often the old championship, whilst producing some fantastic World Final nights, failed to do this.

 

Since the advent of Grand Prix you could make a strong claim for each years champion being the best rider in that particular year. Under the old system home track advantage too often meant a home town winner (eg 1973, 1983). Under Grand Prix Peter Collins would have proved a more deserving winner in 1977 than 1976 in my opinion.

[manchesterpaul]

Interesting discussion this one, I used to love the old World Championship, but also feel that the Grand Prix are great too.

 

To play devils advocate I would say, whilst agreeing that the old system gave anyone a chance to be champion, that the Grand Prix preserves the integrity of the World Championship. I think that the ultimate goal of a World Championship should be to produce the best rider as champion and too often the old championship, whilst producing some fantastic World Final nights, failed to do this.

 

The Grand Prix system is superb at determining the true top rider in the sport. A one-off meeting as with the old World Finals meant a single engine failure, or any single piece of misfortune not of one's own making during a race would make null and void a whole season of the unquestionable rider in the sport being denied his reward.

 

Also, the GP's means each country gets the associated increase in media attention tha tonly a single country would get. Additionally, a GP every second week creates more news and puiblicity than a single meeting does. So many UK newspaper sports editors are well piffed off they have to give over column inches more than once a year.

 

Basically, every time a country stages a GP it results in publicity for the sport that, with the old single meeting system, only gave to one country once a year. Every round is in effect a World FInal publicity wise. Plus, main point being a far better system in deciding the World's top rider.

[The White Knight]

Sorry, but name a World Final where EVERYONE in the field had a realistic chance of being World Champion.

 

I only have to mention a couple of names - Jack Young as a Second Division Rider and Jerzy Sczakiel. Certainly in Sczakiel's case - he wasn't fancied at all.

 

Nowadays - neither Rider would get in. SO - how is that fair?

[The White Knight]

The Grand Prix system is superb at determining the true top rider in the sport. A one-off meeting as with the old World Finals meant a single engine failure, or any single piece of misfortune not of one's own making during a race would make null and void a whole season of the unquestionable rider in the sport being denied his reward.

 

Also, the GP's means each country gets the associated increase in media attention tha tonly a single country would get. Additionally, a GP every second week creates more news and puiblicity than a single meeting does. So many UK newspaper sports editors are well piffed off they have to give over column inches more than once a year.

 

Basically, every time a country stages a GP it results in publicity for the sport that, with the old single meeting system, only gave to one country once a year. Every round is in effect a World FInal publicity wise. Plus, main point being a far better system in deciding the World's top rider.

 

You only need ask Dave Jessop- about that.

 

Yes - the Sport IS getting more publicity - but - at what cost??? The beauty of the 'Old' World Final was the element of chance. How many times, with the advent of the GP's. have we seen the whole thing over BEFORE the FINAL Grand Prix has been run. I don't care if it does show the most consistant Rider as World Champion. What about when Mark Loram won the World Championship - he NEVER actually won a GP that year. How anti-climactic is that???

I am, I might add a big Fan of Mark and rejoiced when he won. Was it right though? - I think not.

[HenryW]

I only have to mention a couple of names - Jack Young as a Second Division Rider and Jerzy Sczakiel. Certainly in Sczakiel's case - he wasn't fancied at all.

 

Nowadays - neither Rider would get in. SO - how is that fair?

Jerzy didn't have to qualify for the 1973 Final. He was given a place in the final alongside 4 other Poles simply because they were Polish, not because anyone thought they were the best riders in the World.

 

Let's be clear, Jerzy wouldn't have had a sniff of the World title if it was a GP series.

 

Is your earlier shout about the death of the World Championship actually about nominating a Brit for commercial reasons when they possibly aren't in the top 15 or with the GP series as a whole?

 

Actually...There probably is no need to ask as you probably answered it with your next post...

 

The beauty of the 'Old' World Final was the element of chance. How many times, with the advent of the GP's. have we seen the whole thing over BEFORE the FINAL Grand Prix has been run. I don't care if it does show the most consistant Rider as World Champion. What about when Mark Loram won the World Championship - he NEVER actually won a GP that year. How anti-climactic is that???

How many times did we see a one off World Final without one of the top riders in the World because they dropped out due to bad luck during the qualifiers?

How many times did we see riders missing out on the title due to an engine failure or harsh exclusion?

How many times did we see riders going through the motions because their chance had gone in their first couple of races and there was nothing left to race for?

 

You suggest that Mark's title was "anti-climactic". Were you in the Polonia Stadium in Bydgoszcz the night he sealed his title? If you were, I doubt you would be saying that it was anticlimactic.

 

As far as I can see, the GP series does a better job of determining the best rider in the World than the old system did, but you can obviously retort with, "I don't care if it does show the most consistant Rider as World Champion."

 

Apparently this doesn't sit well with you because there might be a GP held where the title is already decided, or there might be a rider making up the numbers in the series who might actually be a bit worse than the next rider down.

 

Correct me if I am wrong, but neither of those objections is about deciding the eventual champion in a "sporting" way, unless you can offer some evidence of a rider who was beating everyone around the tracks of Europe but missed out on his title because he was left out of the GP series. Your complaints actually seem to be more about making it entertaining and appealing to fans in a "one off shoot-out scenario"....Is it more "sporting" to throw things into the crap-shoot of a one off final on one track, or hold a series of events on multiple tracks with varying preparation and weather conditions?

[ImpartialOne]

I only have to mention a couple of names - Jack Young as a Second Division Rider and Jerzy Sczakiel. Certainly in Sczakiel's case - he wasn't fancied at all.

 

Nowadays - neither Rider would get in. SO - how is that fair?

That's kind of diverting the question. Did every rider have a chance? Look at all the continental qualifiers over the years; Kuznetsov, Hack, Starostin, Ondrasik, to name just a few off the top of my head. They were nothing but fillers.

 

Why do you say certain riders can't qualify for GP series now? Premier League riders have just as much chance to qualify now as they did back then. The reason they don't is they aren't good enough. Hans Nielsen failed to qualify for the 1992 World Final, so not all the best riders had the chance to be world champion in Wroclaw.

 

Any half decent rider has a chance to qualify for GP series if they are good enough to get through.

[JC!]

You only need ask Dave Jessop- about that.

 

Yes - the Sport IS getting more publicity - but - at what cost??? The beauty of the 'Old' World Final was the element of chance. How many times, with the advent of the GP's. have we seen the whole thing over BEFORE the FINAL Grand Prix has been run. I don't care if it does show the most consistant Rider as World Champion. What about when Mark Loram won the World Championship - he NEVER actually won a GP that year. How anti-climactic is that???

I am, I might add a big Fan of Mark and rejoiced when he won. Was it right though? - I think not.

 

I wonder how it would have been recieved if the World Championship had been decided by GP from the 1930's, and someone suggested moving it to qualifiers and a World Final in the 1990's? I think people would have said it was mad, best rider doesn't win, too much home advantage, one piece of bad luck can ruin a riders whole year. Basically picking out all of the faults. That's what leads me to conclude that a GP is fairest.

 

The thing that clouds it all is that the qualification system provided those memorable,dramatic, thrilling nights to look back on. There were, however, some shockers too (Munich and Amsterdam anyone?) but I still enjoyed them for being there on the occasion.

[davidncohen]

I wonder how it would have been recieved if the World Championship had been decided by GP from the 1930's, and someone suggested moving it to qualifiers and a World Final in the 1990's? I think people would have said it was mad, best rider doesn't win, too much home advantage, one piece of bad luck can ruin a riders whole year. Basically picking out all of the faults. That's what leads me to conclude that a GP is fairest.

 

The thing that clouds it all is that the qualification system provided those memorable,dramatic, thrilling nights to look back on. There were, however, some shockers too (Munich and Amsterdam anyone?) but I still enjoyed them for being there on the occasion.

 

Very interesting and unusual point, although this thread is getting slightly off-topic, but still worthy. There are still plenty of people around who say "If only we had the one-off World Final again..."; "If only we had Wembley back again..."; "If only we had the qualifiers like we use to have...". Get my drift? These statements have been produced at various times since the GP started, at very regular intervals. When are these people going to move on? Speedway on the world scene has moved on, for better or for worse, and it isn't going back to how it was, so please get use to it. Most other motor sports are based on the GP type events (British F1 stock car racing still has a world final I'll grant you). The crowds that have come to many of the GPs in mainland Europe have really help bolster the sport in many of these countries. The GP is here to stay, it may not be perfect, but at least there has been some experimentation with the scoring system since inception... so get use to it. Too many UK based fans live in the past, and I'm sure this hasn't done the standing of speedway here any good - we were once the hotbed of the world scene - look where we are now.

 

Interesting previous comment about whether a complete lack of British riders would impact crowds / media coverage at the British GP in Cardiff - I don't think so somehow, as many British fans follow "their man / favourite" who is / has certainly not always been a Brit.

 

David

Edited August 6, 2011 by davidncohen