Italian Gp Terenzano

[ImpartialOne]

Also, Lindback is in the GP Qualification Final, so he could seal his place there and not rely on one of the handouts...Something that Bomber and Freddie should have been doing this year as well!

Quite right. Harris appears to be living in a false sense of security that no matter how bad he is he will get a VIP pass, but I'm afraid his membership is almost up and won't be renewed.

[PHILIPRISING]

Quite right. Harris appears to be living in a false sense of security that no matter how bad he is he will get a VIP pass, but I'm afraid his membership is almost up and won't be renewed.

 

 

NOT sure I totally agree with that although I appreciate where you are coming from. Harris fully understands that he needs to finish in the top eight and went into this season high on confidence after his sterling end-of-year performances in 2010. I honestly believe that Chris Harris is a top five rider as long as he has the right equipment. He will never be a first class starter - those are born rather than created - but his ability from the back, allied to his guts and determination, can help to compensate for that.

 

Incidentally, sat with Ole Olsen at a reception in Italy on Friday and he was saying how old school Gollob and Hancock are from the start. The modern way is chin on the handlebars and the throttle wide open. The two old-times are much more upright and start with very little throttle. You can try and teach that but it is more natural than anything else.

 

Harris truly believed that having tried the new silencers last year he would have no trouble with them this. But, like many others, he has been caught out and still hasn't found the right set-up. Hancock and his team had it sorted during the winter while tuner Peter Johns (Holder and Ward) was always one step ahead. But, as Harris says, what might suit Holder won't necessarily suit him.

 

You can argue, and I wouldn't disagree, that GP riders should know what is required but the fact is that many today simply want to get on a bike and ride it. Gollob is the exception to the rule. But then, look at Ove Fundin, who I was chatting to in Gorzow. He never got involved in the mechanics although he knew basically what he wanted. But it was all pretty standard stuff and the bike he used to win in 1967, a JAP/JAWA hybrid, was basically the Belle Vue track spare.

 

Of course it will be a problem if Harris, by a long way the best British rider at present, doesn't qualify automatically. Ask most GP riders who they think has the most natural talent and they will name Tai Woffinden but he still has a major attitude problem that remains a high hurdle to his aspirations.

 

Would Harris take a wild card by default? Probably, but don't run away with the idea that he either expects one or will not be extremely disappointed if he doesn't get there on merit. He may not say much but he is very frustrated that he is currently off the pace and knows that he is much better than his scores suggest.

[JC!]

I honestly believe that Chris Harris is a top five rider as long as he has the right equipment.

 

Can't agree with that assessment whatsoever, and I like Bomber a lot. Top 5 would suggest he is better than at least one of Gollob, Crump, Hampel, Hancock and Sayfutdinov to name but 5 off the top of my head. Nothing in his record to date to suggest he is top 5, IMO it is doubtful now if he will ever get to a higher level than scrapping for an occasional top 8 place.

[PHILIPRISING]

Can't agree with that assessment whatsoever, and I like Bomber a lot. Top 5 would suggest he is better than at least one of Gollob, Crump, Hampel, Hancock and Sayfutdinov to name but 5 off the top of my head. Nothing in his record to date to suggest he is top 5, IMO it is doubtful now if he will ever get to a higher level than scrapping for an occasional top 8 place.

 

BUT he was sixth last year after a very poor first half to the season.

[JC!]

BUT he was sixth last year after a very poor first half to the season.

 

If I recall correctly he was 14th the 2 years prior to that and is 13th this year. It is undoubted that he benefitted from the misfortune of others last year (particularly Pedersen and Sayfutdinov), to achieve his only top 8 finish to date. This does not, of course, lessen his achievement, and I am not suggesting this at all.

 

As I say, I like Bomber very much but to say he is better than any of the riders I mentioned previously cannot be justified - not a criticism just a clear reality in my opinion. I would also suggest that others have overtaken Bomber, and, at around 30, I do not see him taking the next step now.

 

You say that his ability to race can make up for his poor gating but, at the very top level, this can never be the case on a consistant basis - a lot of tracks (and/or their preperation) and the quality and pace of opposition means that the odds are too heavily stacked against him.

[Phlipphlopp]

If I recall correctly he was 14th the 2 years prior to that and is 13th this year. It is undoubted that he benefitted from the misfortune of others last year (particularly Pedersen and Sayfutdinov), to achieve his only top 8 finish to date. This does not, of course, lessen his achievement, and I am not suggesting this at all.

 

As I say, I like Bomber very much but to say he is better than any of the riders I mentioned previously cannot be justified - not a criticism just a clear reality in my opinion. I would also suggest that others have overtaken Bomber, and, at around 30, I do not see him taking the next step now.

 

You say that his ability to race can make up for his poor gating but, at the very top level, this can never be the case on a consistant basis - a lot of tracks (and/or their preperation) and the quality and pace of opposition means that the odds are too heavily stacked against him.

 

Or just generally crap tracks like Kirky Lane . But , so he's a bad gater , i cant fall for this . Gating isnt natural , i dont buy into that . Why doesnt he employ some like the master gater , Hans N , or even Ivan M during the close season to try different techniques , set ups ? I think riders who cant gate have this perception that if keeping the status quo , things will be ok . I'm sorry , but they are wrong . Gating is an art , allied with good equipment .

[JC!]

Or just generally crap tracks like Kirky Lane . But , so he's a bad gater , i cant fall for this . Gating isnt natural , i dont buy into that . Why doesnt he employ some like the master gater , Hans N , or even Ivan M during the close season to try different techniques , set ups ? I think riders who cant gate have this perception that if keeping the status quo , things will be ok . I'm sorry , but they are wrong . Gating is an art , allied with good equipment .

 

Just to point out, I never raised the point that he was a bad gater! I agree that there is an art to gating that can be improved massively with technique training and practice. I would say, however, a lot of hand to eye co-ordination and reactions are instinctive and certain individuals will always be naturally better than others.

[ImpartialOne]

I don't doubt for a second that Harris is frustrated with his performances this year but I have to question his thinking in not entering the qualifiers having only ever made the top 8 once. And this is where I think he is living in a false sense if security because by not entering the qualifiers he must surely have thought he would get a pass no matter what.

Nothing is guaranteed and a back up, should things go wrong, should always be an option.

 

Riders like Crump, Pedersen, etc who have always been contenders can be forgiven one bad season and, under the current format, be allowed a reprieve if necessary but serial under performers like Harris can't expect to stay in the competition if they don't perform.

 

Two chances of qualification have to be better than one however you look at it.

[BigFatDave]

Just to point out, I never raised the point that he was a bad gater! I agree that there is an art to gating that can be improved massively with technique training and practice. I would say, however, a lot of hand to eye co-ordination and reactions are instinctive and certain individuals will always be naturally better than others.

....plus it helps if the tapes go up evenly.

[The White Knight]

If I recall correctly he was 14th the 2 years prior to that and is 13th this year. It is undoubted that he benefitted from the misfortune of others last year (particularly Pedersen and Sayfutdinov), to achieve his only top 8 finish to date. This does not, of course, lessen his achievement, and I am not suggesting this at all.

 

As I say, I like Bomber very much but to say he is better than any of the riders I mentioned previously cannot be justified - not a criticism just a clear reality in my opinion. I would also suggest that others have overtaken Bomber, and, at around 30, I do not see him taking the next step now.

 

You say that his ability to race can make up for his poor gating but, at the very top level, this can never be the case on a consistant basis - a lot of tracks (and/or their preperation) and the quality and pace of opposition means that the odds are too heavily stacked against him.

 

I too like 'Bomber' but I think he needs to improve his Gating and his Equipment if he wants to move forward. At present I don't think he is good enough.

 

Regarding the point about age in the above Post - may I, respectfully, point out though, that Tomas Gollob our current World Champion is over 40 years of age.

[Phlipphlopp]

Just to point out, I never raised the point that he was a bad gater! I agree that there is an art to gating that can be improved massively with technique training and practice. I would say, however, a lot of hand to eye co-ordination and reactions are instinctive and certain individuals will always be naturally better than others.

 

As we've all seen lately , good reactions lead to refs calling all 4 back....................Some of us on here could do a better job than them , of that i'm sure !!

[ImpartialOne]

Regarding the point about age in the above Post - may I, respectfully, point out though, that Tomas Gollob our current World Champion is over 40 years of age.

fair point but at the age of 30 Gollob wasn't, and I'm fairly sure never has been, languishing regularly in the double figure placings. Gollob always had it but it took him 10-15 years to go all the way to the top. Harris has never even looked like a future world champion and certainly won't be at the top at 40, I'm pretty sure of that.

[cyclone]

Cynical me believes that at the end of the day, Sky will decide whether or not the UK viewing figures would be adversely affected by the absence of a British presence in all the rounds.

 

If they conclude that their potential subscription revenues would suffer should there be no British representative, I would expect BSI would therefore ensure that Harris/Nicholls/Woffinden/??? would be included in the permanent field for 2012.

[PHILIPRISING]

HARRIS is actually 28 years old right now so his best years are hardly behind him. As stated previously, I don't think he is lacking in ability or determination but for a long time now his off-track set-up was wrong and if he can sort that out (as he is trying to do) then he can survive at the highest level, which sadly is more than we can say of any other British rider at present.

[Roland]

HARRIS is actually 28 years old right now so his best years are hardly behind him. As stated previously, I don't think he is lacking in ability or determination but for a long time now his off-track set-up was wrong and if he can sort that out (as he is trying to do) then he can survive at the highest level, which sadly is more than we can say of any other British rider at present.

Can't fault his determination, however its probably his downfall. I watched him on Saturday (on the first bend) and if I had a Euro for every time he rode right past the corner I could be a wealthy man. Courtney is the man to sort this out as he was masterful at keeping low at Blackbird Road. He seems better when there is some material to slow him up. Also while I've got my soapbox out........somebody needs to get him trapping. Its no good just sitting there screwing the nuts of his motor he needs to think about whats required to get the bike going forward.

[spook]

ok so if he is to be stuck with who makes way for him out of Koldziej, Bjerre, Lindgren and Lindback? You cannot fit 17 riders into 16 places and 9th to 12th positions shouldnt come below 13th in the pecking order

 

Bomber's only chance is that he 1) breaks into the top 12 ... and 2) stays relatively on the pace of the top 8 (he is currently 20 points behind.. or 3) he finishes in the top 13 on pace and someone retires

 

 

That would probably depend on who qualified from the Final in Vetlanda.

 

If a couple of Danes or a couple of Poles get through then Kolodziej and Bjerre would surely see their chances of a pick disappear, and that isn't entirely inconceivable given the meeting has 4 Danes and 5 Poles in it. (edited for accuracy as I previously said 4 from each, forgetting about poor Mr Ulamek)

 

Also, Lindback is in the GP Qualification Final, so he could seal his place there and not rely on one of the handouts...Something that Bomber and Freddie should have been doing this year as well!

 

all good points and ones that I had overlooked.....

 

re: Bomber not entering into the qualifiers.... he wasnt alone and I think the increasing trend in recent years for current GP riders not to enter is probably based on the WC habits of IMG....... maybe the attitude is that to crash out of the qualifiers or have a bad showing could result in a diminished stock value

 

 

I honestly believe that Chris Harris is a top five rider as long as he has the right equipment. He will never be a first class starter - those are born rather than created - but his ability from the back, allied to his guts and determination, can help to compensate for that.

 

Of course it will be a problem if Harris, by a long way the best British rider at present, doesn't qualify automatically. Ask most GP riders who they think has the most natural talent and they will name Tai Woffinden but he still has a major attitude problem that remains a high hurdle to his aspirations.

 

 

Sounds like Tai has ruffled a few feathers on the GP circuit

 

I agree that Bomber has always had the potential to be a top 5 rider, but it is unfulfilled imho... top riders get the job done like Chris did in the final third of last season's GP's ...... instinctive gating, fast bikes, and smart on track decisions

 

People have rightly listed off his other poor GP standings down the years but one thing that has been forgotten here, and one that I know you are loathe to agree with Philip, is the effect of the Ole prepared tracks through those years...... it was no suprise to me that Bomber thrived last season once his machinery had been sorted, because we were getting some track prep aimed at encouraging passing, not tracks that suited gaters and a fear of rain............. unfortunately for Bomber his gating, machinery and the track preps have been out of sorts this season..... but it is the same for everyone and is ultimately the difference

 

re: where Gollob was at age 28..... ImpartialOne is right, he wasnt flunking to the tune that Bomber has but I do remember him regularly being stubborn about his choice of lines to the degree where his common sense had to be questioned (right up until the last few years)....... it took Tomasz many years to sort it out, along with the reckless moves.......

 

Tomasz and Greg prove that there is hope, but for me it is significant that Chris made a real breakthrough last season and has followed that up with this slump... silencers or no silencers

[The White Knight]

Cynical me believes that at the end of the day, Sky will decide whether or not the UK viewing figures would be adversely affected by the absence of a British presence in all the rounds.

 

If they conclude that their potential subscription revenues would suffer should there be no British representative, I would expect BSI would therefore ensure that Harris/Nicholls/Woffinden/??? would be included in the permanent field for 2012.

 

IF that is the case then the Speedway World Championship is DEAD!!! Putting Riders in because of Financial implications, whilst more worthy Riders are left out would make a MOCKERY of the whole Sport of Speedway. Since when did BSI/SKY decide who is to be World Champion this is supposed to be a SPORT - that means the Championship SHOULD be won on ABILITY - NOT - CHARITY or FINANCIAL INTEREST!!! :mad:

Edited August 4, 2011 by The White Knight

[fullbore]

IF that is the case then the Speedway World Championship is DEAD!!! Putting Riders in because of Financial implications, whilst more worthy Riders are left out would make a MOCKERY of the whole Sport of Speedway. Since when did BSI/SKY decide who is to be World Champion this is supposed to be a SPORT - that means the Championship SHOULD be won on ABILITY - NOT - CHARITY or FINANCIAL INTEREST!!! :mad:

 

Money talks... always has.

 

Niamh

[JC!]

I too like 'Bomber' but I think he needs to improve his Gating and his Equipment if he wants to move forward. At present I don't think he is good enough.

 

Regarding the point about age in the above Post - may I, respectfully, point out though, that Tomas Gollob our current World Champion is over 40 years of age.

 

Agree with the first point. In respect of the second point you could also add that he is same age as Ivan Mauger when he first become champion, but I still don't think Bomber is one of the top 5 in the world!!!

[spook]

IF that is the case then the Speedway World Championship is DEAD!!! Putting Riders in because of Financial implications, whilst more worthy Riders are left out would make a MOCKERY of the whole Sport of Speedway. Since when did BSI/SKY decide who is to be World Champion this is supposed to be a SPORT - that means the Championship SHOULD be won on ABILITY - NOT - CHARITY or FINANCIAL INTEREST!!! :mad:

 

this is not new though WK is it? IMG and BSI have been doing this for years........ it kills some of the romance of the world championships and that is difficult to defend.... just like a devaluation of the FA cup, Wimbledon, or a British F1 GP

 

but the irony is that anyone would find it extremely difficult to find stronger lineups in the world championships than we have had for the last couple of years.....