Is It Worth The Bother?

[olddon]

Much has been made of this competition and its value in developing young riders since it inception, originally as the Conference then the National League. I pose just one query in regards to its value - has it yet produced a rider of Grand Prix standard? That would be real development for the competition - not just the pretence that it's there to develop young riders for better things in the sport when in my view it has abysmally failed to do so.

JACK KEEN,

ERITH, KENT

[THE DEAN MACHINE]

Much has been made of this competition and its value in developing young riders since it inception, originally as the Conference then the National League. I pose just one query in regards to its value - has it yet produced a rider of Grand Prix standard? That would be real development for the competition - not just the pretence that it's there to develop young riders for better things in the sport when in my view it has abysmally failed to do so.

JACK KEEN,

ERITH, KENT

chris harris

[maidoman]

Much has been made of this competition and its value in developing young riders since it inception, originally as the Conference then the National League. I pose just one query in regards to its value - has it yet produced a rider of Grand Prix standard? That would be real development for the competition - not just the pretence that it's there to develop young riders for better things in the sport when in my view it has abysmally failed to do so.

JACK KEEN,

ERITH, KENT

tia rode for scunthorpe in the conferance

[Neil H]

As well as the 2 mentioned, all but 2 of the British riders in the Elite League came through from the 3rd tier.

[Vince]

Personally I believe it is equally or even more important that the NL produce riders of all standards for both the EL and PL. That imo is the way that the 3rd division can best benefit British Speedway.

Any GP riders should be viewed as a bonus, after all riders of that ability would probably make the grade anyway.

[Parsloes 1928 nearly]

Much has been made of this competition and its value in developing young riders since it inception, originally as the Conference then the National League. I pose just one query in regards to its value - has it yet produced a rider of Grand Prix standard? That would be real development for the competition - not just the pretence that it's there to develop young riders for better things in the sport when in my view it has abysmally failed to do so.

JACK KEEN,

ERITH, KENT

 

Er, sorry my fellow north-west Kentish Man but you have absolutely NO idea what you're talking about!!!!

How does Harris, Woffinden, Kennett, Stead, Wright, Howe, Barker grab ya for starters... One GP winner in there and at least one other certain to become one...

EVERY single talented British youngster on the scene now, started out in the CL..: where have you been looking..?!

[JagFan]

As well as the 2 mentioned, all but 2 of the British riders in the Elite League came through from the 3rd tier.

I don't want to decry the NL (sorry I still think of that as the seventies league that came after the NNL ) but I do still yearn for proper second halves where the younger/junior/on the verge of a team place but not quite ready riders got to mix it with the senior established riders. Maybe not GP standard, but Ellesmere Port produced a great deal of good riders down the years via the Saturday Training School and this route - and they weren't the only ones.

 

(Any Gunners fans remember the 'Trainee Tryout' race at the end of the meeting "time permitting" - more entertaining than EL racing ?)

 

Plea to sign the petition to bring back speedway to Ellesmere Port. Thanks in advance http://cmttpublic.cheshirewestandchester.gov.uk/mgEPetitionDisplay.aspx?ID=18&RPID=1325175

[CrystalCastles]

I think it depends on its purpose as a league which I think is ambiguous so that it can't be measured.

I think they should be reviewing & analysing the system as it stands.

People point to those riders & the young ones are no better than average at the highest level.

Tai was good b4 he came over.

Team GB at the SWC are a joke. Ok on home soil & that's about it.

Harris has don't great & can be really proud of his achievements but hes never gna have a shot at the world title. I think he improved & got to the top level because of his own hard work & not because the 3rd tier developed him into a world class rider.

If we measure it on that basis I don't think it has done anything over the last 10 years.

If we look at the riders who have progressed out of the NL I think it has done something. Especially last year.

But I think they need to either set targets or start reviewing the nl system and what it does.

[Bradders]

I think a majority of the Elite sides don`t want to take a chance on the young riders. They would rather look aboard and get someone in who no disrepect to the ones over here but Better riders. As we keep hearing Denmark,poland and sweden having their riders having facilities to learn we have hardly anything apart from the odd training school.

 

The best young riders i`ve seen in the last couple of years are Josh Auty,Joe Haines,Craig Cook, Gary Irving and Jason Garrity.

 

 

But until the BSPA take speedway seriously from the the grass roots upwards instead of just looking after their own interests, then sorry to say the days of british riders progressing will never happen.

[Bagpuss]

The National League does as much as it can but until we have an infrastructure for under 15's to race on bikes with smaller engines from a young age then we will always struggle to produce world class riders. We need 15 year olds to be much further in their development by the time they can race in the NL.

[CrystalCastles]

The National League does as much as it can but until we have an infrastructure for under 15's to race on bikes with smaller engines from a young age then we will always struggle to produce world class riders. We need 15 year olds to be much further in their development by the time they can race in the NL.

 

I 100% agree with your post.

Take Machin's comments in the speedway star this week, we havent even seen the best of the young aussies coming over.

[spin king]

The National League does as much as it can but until we have an infrastructure for under 15's to race on bikes with smaller engines from a young age then we will always struggle to produce world class riders. We need 15 year olds to be much further in their development by the time they can race in the NL.

Totally right mate, we seem hell bent in this country sticking youngsters on 500cc bikes, and it just does not work.

What I would like to see is under 10's on no more than 80cc, under 12's 125cc under 14's 250cc and under 16 350cc, this would teach them better thottle control.

Also we need more coaches, I don't what qualification if any there needs to be a speedway coach, maybe something needs to arranged that coaches work for a coaches badge.

[Vince]

Just had a qick count up of names I recognised in Malc Vasey's A-Z of CL riders. I would say the 3rd division has been remarkably successful if th yardstick is getting riders into the higher divisions.

I made it about 75 riders who have ridden in the 3rd division and gone on to at least hold down a PL team place for a season. I don't think that is so bad. Would be better still if the asset system favoured Brits instead of working against them.

The idea of getting kids on smaller bikes is undoubtedly the way to go. Unfortunately I am not sure it is practical in this country because you also need smaller tracks that are able to be used several times a month for practice as well as meetings. With planning and the general attitude to motocycling as it in this country that would be nigh on impossible.

I still believe that Speedway needs to get heavily involved in youth Grasstrack because the possibility of getting practice tracks is very much higher. More kids would take up Grasstrack instead of Motocross if there were more practice opportunities and it was recognised as the route into Speedway.

[spin king]

Just had a qick count up of names I recognised in Malc Vasey's A-Z of CL riders. I would say the 3rd division has been remarkably successful if th yardstick is getting riders into the higher divisions.

I made it about 75 riders who have ridden in the 3rd division and gone on to at least hold down a PL team place for a season. I don't think that is so bad. Would be better still if the asset system favoured Brits instead of working against them.

The idea of getting kids on smaller bikes is undoubtedly the way to go. Unfortunately I am not sure it is practical in this country because you also need smaller tracks that are able to be used several times a month for practice as well as meetings. With planning and the general attitude to motocycling as it in this country that would be nigh on impossible.

I still believe that Speedway needs to get heavily involved in youth Grasstrack because the possibility of getting practice tracks is very much higher. More kids would take up Grasstrack instead of Motocross if there were more practice opportunities and it was recognised as the route into Speedway.

Incline to agree with you Vince on the grasstrack scene, very rarely do see riders coming through from Grasstrack, and when you think back to the 70's and early 80's when we had an abundance of riders at international level a large proportion came through from the grasstrack scene.

I know that the grasstrack scene was hit badly with the foot and mouth so that could have turn future riders to motocross.

I think that it time to go back to basics along with some forward thinking, with some structure, but I think that we need to realise that things are not going to be okay over night, maybe a 10 year plan put into place.

[Vince]

I don't think people went from Grasstrack to Motocross because of the foot and mouth, after all there was no MX running either.

In my opinion there are literlly thousands of kids riding MX simply because it is easy to get into locally and it is easy to find practice tracks where you can get hours on a bike every week.

If Speedway tracks were to work together with Grasstrack clubs or even buy some posts and rope and run a couple of practice days a month it would be more attractive to youngsters. If you then offered the top four in each class a ride before or after Speedway meetings they would be involved with Speedway straight away.

It is always going to be difficult getting people away from MX because of the time they get on the bike in comparison. Without drving for more than an hour I could spend longer riding a MX bike this weekend than a young Speedway rider will all year.

That is the real reason riders from other countries are ahead of ours at similar ages imo. Time on the bike - it's more important than what bike they ride or how many races they take part in. Promoters then compare an 18 year old Dane or Aussie with the same age British lad when, in the main, the British lad needs to be 8 or 10 years older to have comparable experience.

A young CL standard rider practicing whenever he can over the winter and doing 25 meetings will be lucky to get 3 to 4 hours on track time a year. I saw Kristian Lund quoted on here the other day about development of riders. He once told me that he could practice all day, any day for about £8. He was helping train the Mavericks and pointed out that he would ride more some weeks at home than they would all year. If we can't make Speedway tracks available then fields have to be the next best option.

[alan_boon]

While EL, and even PL sides, field all-foreign teams, we need a CL/NL to give Brits a racing start.

[25yearfan]

The creation of the 3rd Division in 1994 and its continued existance ever since has been one of the best things to happen to British speedway ever and really the sport could of done with it being formed in the late 70's/early 80's!

 

The reasons it has been so beneficial to British speedway are -

 

Many British riders have had their first rides in League speedway in the 3rd Division.

 

It has produced more riders than the old junior Leagues that existed before 1994.

 

Theirs a number of riders who are not good enough for top 2 League speedway but can still produce good entertainment and want to ride. These riders have been able to ride League speedway through the 3rd Division.

 

Old speedway centres that struggled to afford top 2 League speedway like Mildenhall, Rye House, Stoke, Wimbledon, Scunthorpe, Plymouth, Berwick, Arena Essex, Weymouth, St Austell and possibly others I can't think of now were given a route back into speedway through the cheaper 3rd Division. Its likely that most of these tracks would of never reopened without the 3rd Division.

 

As well as old centres, new teams and others that have never staged League speedway like Buxton, Carmarthen, Somerset, Linlithgow, Sittingbourne, IOW, have all started in the 3rd Division.

 

Look at the current PL (+ the EL with Lakeside, formerly Arena Essex who rode in the 1996 3rd Division after leaving the top flight the previos year) and the line ups for the League in previous years and you'll see that many tracks and teams that either started in the 3rd Division or reopened in it. So therefore the continued strength of the PL owes a lot to the 3rd Division!

 

Being local to Mildenhall I know thats its probable the track would of never seen speedway again after shutting midway through the 1992 Division 2 season. Indeed the club made the misjudgement of moving back into the 2nd Division in 2006 and struggled at that level for 3 seasons before having to move down after a disasterous 2008 campaign.

 

Long live the 3rd Division and anyone that think its not worthwhile should look closely at the facts!

Edited February 13, 2011 by 25yearfan

[Bryn]

 

In my opinion there are literlly thousands of kids riding MX simply because it is easy to get into locally and it is easy to find practice tracks where you can get hours on a bike every week.

If Speedway tracks were to work together with Grasstrack clubs or even buy some posts and rope and run a couple of practice days a month it would be more attractive to youngsters. If you then offered the top four in each class a ride before or after Speedway meetings they would be involved with Speedway straight away.

It is always going to be difficult getting people away from MX because of the time they get on the bike in comparison. Without drving for more than an hour I could spend longer riding a MX bike this weekend than a young Speedway rider will all year.

That is the real reason riders from other countries are ahead of ours at similar ages imo. Time on the bike - it's more important than what bike they ride or how many races they take part in. Promoters then compare an 18 year old Dane or Aussie with the same age British lad when, in the main, the British lad needs to be 8 or 10 years older to have comparable experience.

A young CL standard rider practicing whenever he can over the winter and doing 25 meetings will be lucky to get 3 to 4 hours on track time a year. I saw Kristian Lund quoted on here the other day about development of riders. He once told me that he could practice all day, any day for about £8. He was helping train the Mavericks and pointed out that he would ride more some weeks at home than they would all year. If we can't make Speedway tracks available then fields have to be the next best option.

 

Sound words indeed Vince and down this way (Kent) alas, it appears that junior grasstrack is far less prevalent than years gone by when there were two excellent junior grasstrack clubs in operation.

Although I haven't had contact with either of them for some while I feel certain that both Phil and Neil will read and digest any logical and helpful suggestions anybody might make in addition, no doubt, to trying to bring any plans / ideas they may have had themselves to fruition if at all possible.

[Parsloes 1928 nearly]

I think it depends on its purpose as a league which I think is ambiguous so that it can't be measured.

I think they should be reviewing & analysing the system as it stands.

People point to those riders & the young ones are no better than average at the highest level.

Tai was good b4 he came over.

Team GB at the SWC are a joke. Ok on home soil & that's about it.

Harris has don't great & can be really proud of his achievements but hes never gna have a shot at the world title. I think he improved & got to the top level because of his own hard work & not because the 3rd tier developed him into a world class rider.

If we measure it on that basis I don't think it has done anything over the last 10 years.

If we look at the riders who have progressed out of the NL I think it has done something. Especially last year.

But I think they need to either set targets or start reviewing the nl system and what it does.

 

Hmm, I think I'm right in saying that Tai had not raced competitively at 500cc before jetting into Scunthorpe (there's not an expression much used!) - so I think that our third division here can indeed claim a huge role in his development..

And, er, no-one would claim that Bomber was made into "a world class rider" by the CL but it was his - and all of his Team GB's contemporaries' - route into the sport: which is surely what we're talking about in terms of what we require from this tier of British Speedway..

[HenryW]

Hmm, I think I'm right in saying that Tai had not raced competitively at 500cc before jetting into Scunthorpe (there's not an expression much used!) - so I think that our third division here can indeed claim a huge role in his development..

You might be right, but I am not entirely convinced that we can claim THAT big a role in his development.

 

As Mr Bagpuss rightly said earlier in this thread, it's about what is done before these guys hit the age of 15. If Tai jetted into Scunthorpe and sat on a 500cc bike without what he had been doing before then, he wouldn't have been anything like as good as he was, and more importantly if he had jetted in when he was 10 he would probably be racing BSB or MotoX now...

 

The current 3rd tier only has a "claim" on the development of a bunch of riders because they can race at age 15 at that level. Most of the guys mentioned could easily have stepped into the PL at 15, but they had to wait until they were 16 (why DO they have to wait until they are 16 to race PL, BTW?)

 

Having said that, I don't mean to denounce the value of the 3rd tier. Any chance for young riders to get track time is good, but I think it would be much better to focus on U15 development and work on providing training track time and competitive action for those that are currently too young to get any.

 

Just looking locally to me (Scotland) it's clear that despite the fact we haven't provided any riders at the top level in recent years, we had a lot more riders coming into the PL back in the days that we had good training facilities available to the kids up here (Linlithgow), but even that wasn't great. A competitive setup for kids, like so many of the other top speedway nations have, would surely provide much better riders. 15 is too late to catch the kids. You need to get them involved and give them opportunities to race competitively when they are still under 10.