heathen79 Posted January 30, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 30, 2011 I am fully aware that we are talking about the 3rd tier of speedway here, but I for one dont want to see almost complete novices taking up team places at the expense of seeing more competitive teams. I would much rather the NL revert to the old 13 heat system, and have the second halves again featuring novices. I know that there are people who would see this as a regression, but I consider it to be a huge step forward from what is being proposed at present. I am aware that there is a replicated discussion going on here and on the Heathens Forum, but I shall post here with the intention that a broader selection of people can contribute to the debate. I have mentioned 'novices' riding in the NL, but should clarify what I mean. I am not referring to riders taking their first rides and struggling to get round the track as this would not be racing. However, I would include the likes of Tom Perry, Steve Worral, Richie Worral and Ashley Birks from 2010. All had varying grasstrack/motocross experience but were taking their first steps into competitive team speedway racing on beginner 3.00 averages. These should be the riders we are encouraging at reserve. And just look at the unqualified success of those four, for starters. The rules allowed Dudley last year to replace James Sarjeant with Micky Dyer. Now, you and I will agree Villiers, that we all loved watching Micky and getting to know him, and I am delighted that the Heathens made the move. For one reason, that some other club would have done if we didn't, because those were the rules. But surely in terms of the development of these young British riders, it would be a better situation to have a lower points limit and the exclusion of non-Brits. The likes of James and Darryl Ritchings would have more opportunities under these rules compared to a higher points limit and entry to non-Brits. When they progress up the ladder to the PL, like those four mentioned above, they can test their mettle against higher grade riders, including the young Aussies, and continue their progression. Would James Sarjeant and Darryl Ritchings have more chance of progressing under last years rules or those talked about for this year? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frostylion Posted January 30, 2011 Report Share Posted January 30, 2011 The rules allowed Dudley last year to replace James Sarjeant with Micky Dyer. Now, you and I will agree Villiers, that we all loved watching Micky and getting to know him, and I am delighted that the Heathens made the move. For one reason, that some other club would have done if we didn't, because those were the rules. Dont you mean the rules were bent so Dudley could have done this change??the treatment of James Sargeant was disgusting,if he wasnt a Coventry asset but belonged to one of the speedway mafia,would he hace dropped,NO!!!!! Perry should have had a new average before this point and Dyer didnt have the right paper to ride in the NL,FACT!!!! Same as Mark Jones,but to be fair to Newport,the rules did change after they has signed him Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhidassa Posted January 30, 2011 Report Share Posted January 30, 2011 Dont you mean the rules were bent so Dudley could have done this change??the treatment of James Sargeant was disgusting,if he wasnt a Coventry asset but belonged to one of the speedway mafia,would he hace dropped,NO!!!!! Perry should have had a new average before this point and Dyer didnt have the right paper to ride in the NL,FACT!!!! Same as Mark Jones,but to be fair to Newport,the rules did change after they has signed him Which is, technically, history. And not really relevant in a discussion of future rules and how useful/good they may or may not be... One thing speedway fans (and I'm not directly this at you, but in general) seem very good at it is remembering things they disliked and holding grudges, which usually crop up on such a large majority of topics that are unrelated. Bit of a shame, really. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
heathen79 Posted January 30, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 30, 2011 Dont you mean the rules were bent so Dudley could have done this change??the treatment of James Sargeant was disgusting,if he wasnt a Coventry asset but belonged to one of the speedway mafia,would he hace dropped,NO!!!!! Perry should have had a new average before this point and Dyer didnt have the right paper to ride in the NL,FACT!!!! Which is, technically, history. And not really relevant in a discussion of future rules and how useful/good they may or may not be... 'History' it may be, but 'fact' (regardless of the use of capital letters) it certainly isn't. Anyway, still awaiting the full official announcement regarding the AGM. It has been suggested that this will be on Tuesday, but why the delay? Why not just confirm the rules that have been adopted already? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
21st century heathen Posted January 30, 2011 Report Share Posted January 30, 2011 Which is, technically, history. Not to mention inacurate. Anyway, still awaiting the full official announcement regarding the AGM. It has been suggested that this will be on Tuesday, but why the delay? Why not just confirm the rules that have been adopted already? Well, there's been no official statement from the EL AGM yet so I wouldn't hold your breath. The only reason we know the points limit for a fact is becasue the BSPA website states what each team has remaining to play with after the signings already made. ------------------------------------------------------ With regard to the discusions here: Did banning the Swedes have any effect? No idea but directly or indirectly the period that followed was the last time the Brits had a significant pool of good riders. Collins brothers, Morton, Lee, Carter, Jessop, Louis, Davis, Grahame brothers, Tatum, Wigg, Smith, Doncaster, Cross, Loram, Screen, Louis, Havelock and probably some more in and around the 15-20 years that followed the ban. Now I could name about 5 in the same class as that list. Coincidence perhaps, but I thought I'd put it out there. I'd have been happy enough last season if we would have completed the season with Taylor and Sarj in the team, with Ritchings perhaps getting the odd meeting as required by a number 8. But given the rules were what they were it was a no-brainer to strengthen the team as injuries kicked in and the opportunities arose. But lets not forget that despite clearly helping us to the top of the table the two Aussies, Anderson and Dyer, went missing before the end of the season. Would we really want that to become a regular problem that potentially has a dramatic effect on the outcome of big meeetings at the end of the season? I don't. But this is the past. If in future it's Brits only I would be happy with that decision because there would appear to be enough Brits to go around. Incidentally, I notice on Facebook that Danny Warwick is the latest rider asking if there's any places out there. Also it would be worth having a word with Perry to see whether he's got any mates on the Grasstrack scene that fancy trying speedway. I'm not saying every teenage kid on the grass could be as good in year one as Perry, but if there's a handful out there that could come in and average 4 in the their first season it would be worth giving them a chance because they would start on a 3. If even one or two go on to be any good (if even progressing only to the PL) it would be worthwhile. Likewise the MotoX scene. Any lads out there struggling to make the breakthrough or not 100% sure it's right for them despite loving riding a bike should have a speedway Promoter in their ear giving them another option. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
speedy bill Posted January 30, 2011 Report Share Posted January 30, 2011 I would like to see just one overseas rider alowed per team it cant do any harm.Also with the dropping of the points limit they are droping the standard. Last season the national league was made into a more profesional league and it showed in the product we saw,please dont do a Elete League and lower the standard we fans wont pay to see lower standards as with the Elete it will only lead to smaller crowds.And most National League clubs can not afford that to happen more so the two stand alone clubs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
June Posted January 30, 2011 Report Share Posted January 30, 2011 Since Rob Godfrey brought speedway back to Scunny our family of 3 generations are ever present. Then the C/L but now the NDL. We still watch DVDs of the meetings from 2005 to 2010, we find ourselves saying " wonder where he is?... whatever happened to him?....He packed in because he couldn't afford to keep going or he couldn't get a place in the P/L" and sometimes..." he never bothered after an injury". What I'm hoping is ; If the NDL is for the brits it will secure means of starting off in the bottom tier and progressing to PL. Therefore not forcing our own youngsters to pack up. People come on here saying the youngsters in Sweden, Denmark & Australia are better trained at an earlier age than our youngsters, therefore these foreign riders should be well ready for our PL. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parsloes 1928 nearly Posted January 30, 2011 Report Share Posted January 30, 2011 Did banning the Swedes have any effect? No idea but directly or indirectly the period that followed was the last time the Brits had a significant pool of good riders. It's a point - but i seem to recall that the ban on Swedes was just for the single year (1974 or was it '75) wasn't it..? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parsloes 1928 nearly Posted January 30, 2011 Report Share Posted January 30, 2011 Incidentally, I notice on Facebook that Danny Warwick is the latest rider asking if there's any places out there. It would be crazy if Danny didn't get a team berth as he's consistently been one of the best value and most entertaining riders at this level of the sport for a number of years now. NL Speedway needs the likes of Danny Warwick... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilK Posted January 30, 2011 Report Share Posted January 30, 2011 It would be crazy if Danny didn't get a team berth as he's consistently been one of the best value and most entertaining riders at this level of the sport for a number of years now. NL Speedway needs the likes of Danny Warwick... Pity then Derek, that there were a number of clubs happy to vote a fellow club out of the NL, and in doing so effectively kill seven potential places in speedway for British riders! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben91 Posted January 31, 2011 Report Share Posted January 31, 2011 Standard "You must be a racist for saying the NL should be Brits only," response from a few here again. I agree, we need to set up racing for younger riders below NL standard, however, we also need to maximise track time for those riders who are in the NL, assuming (also hoping) the NL is a 10 team league this year, that's potentially 10 Brits who could be replaced by Aussies/Kiwi's who should be coming over when they are ready for the PL. Before the "Well there are Brits going out to Aus and taking our riders spots," responses look at things from this perspective. Riders such as Micky Dyer, Andrew Aldridge, Ryan Sedgemen, Grant Tregoning have all come over in recent years and averaged between roughly 5-7 points a meeting respectively at NL level, the riders we are sending to Australia are in the main established PL regulars (Auty, Haines, Newman), so until we are sending our raw talent out to Australia and New Zealand then the same should not happen the other way as is the norm at the moment. Points limit lowering is a sensible idea to develop talent, teams will be encouraged to use young 3 pointers who will generally up their averages and move into the main team for the following season as the new reserves come in etc, over a few years this will also stop riders dropping down on ridiculously high averages, or at least if they do, then a team will have to compensate with a few lower averaged youngsters. in 3-4 years the league would have a lot of young British talent and then slowly a compulsory 3 point Brit at reserve in every PL team could come in to play with this again being expanded on slowly. Patience is a virtue and if there was some in British speedway we could rebuild and have some fantastic riders coming through in the next few seasons but we have to build from the NL up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pollyanna Posted January 31, 2011 Report Share Posted January 31, 2011 What's the NDL? It's the official title of the National League, BFD. It stands for National Development League. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
21st century heathen Posted January 31, 2011 Report Share Posted January 31, 2011 It's a point - but i seem to recall that the ban on Swedes was just for the single year (1974 or was it '75) wasn't it..? I don't know. I'm sure it's nothing more than a coincidence but it was worth a mention. If it was just one season it would have no effect, in real terms, on British Speedway. How many top Swedes were there that would have been over here given the choice at that time? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parsloes 1928 nearly Posted January 31, 2011 Report Share Posted January 31, 2011 I don't know. I'm sure it's nothing more than a coincidence but it was worth a mention. If it was just one season it would have no effect, in real terms, on British Speedway. How many top Swedes were there that would have been over here given the choice at that time? Probably not a huge number but those that were, were some of the best riders in the world: Anders Michanek (World Champ in the year the Swedes were banned); Tommy Jansson; Soren Sjosten; Bengt Jansson; Bengt Persson: all were in the top 16 in the world at that time, and all made the World Final rostrum at least once, except of course for the great Tommy who was taken from us before that certainity came to pass... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iris123 Posted January 31, 2011 Report Share Posted January 31, 2011 Going back to the ban on Swedes,maybe my memory is bad,but i seem to recall it was more to do with cost of flying them in and out for British meetings than it was to do with nationality and helping young Brits.This was shown in the fact that resident Swedes like Sjösten and Olle Nygren were not banned if my memory is correct But there was a significant and very important Swedish representation in the top league at the time.Not really sure this has much to do with the situation in the NDL though. I personally feel that a number of foreign youngsters can only be of help to the progress of young British riders.And like i mentioned before,if they help put a few more on the gate that helps the clubs and subsequently also the Brits Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parsloes 1928 nearly Posted January 31, 2011 Report Share Posted January 31, 2011 I personally feel that a number of foreign youngsters can only be of help to the progress of young British riders.And like i mentioned before,if they help put a few more on the gate that helps the clubs and subsequently also the Brits One 'foreign' rider per team would do no harm, IMHO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidba Posted January 31, 2011 Report Share Posted January 31, 2011 One 'foreign' rider per team would do no harm, IMHO Hope they haven't introduced this knee jerk no 'foreigners' rule, 1 per team is sensible and i'm sure it increases crowds and they should be trying to get more people not less through the gates. One 'foreign' rider per team would do no harm, IMHO Hope they haven't introduced this knee jerk no 'foreigners' rule, 1 per team is sensible and i'm sure it increases crowds and they should be trying to get more people not less through the gates. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scribbler Posted January 31, 2011 Report Share Posted January 31, 2011 I personally feel that a number of foreign youngsters can only be of help to the progress of young British riders.And like i mentioned before,if they help put a few more on the gate that helps the clubs and subsequently also the Brits From my understanding of the UK Borders Agency rules having foreign riders would mean EU riders and not Commonwealth riders. Do we really want to be training EU riders so that they can come into the PL and EL - giving British riders even less of a chance? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iris123 Posted January 31, 2011 Report Share Posted January 31, 2011 (edited) From my understanding of the UK Borders Agency rules having foreign riders would mean EU riders and not Commonwealth riders. Do we really want to be training EU riders so that they can come into the PL and EL - giving British riders even less of a chance? I have already stated my opinion.If it helps pull in the crowds by having a Dane or a young German rider or any other nationality,it helps the clubs and so helps British riders.Without the crowds we can forget about training up young Brits because there won't be many clubs and so not many fixtures for them.Plus,like i have said before,there isn't anything stopping young Brits riding on the continent to help further their development.I remember seeing a team including Bridger and Roynon riding in Germany.Pity it isn't a yearly fixture Edited January 31, 2011 by iris123 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
21st century heathen Posted January 31, 2011 Report Share Posted January 31, 2011 Probably not a huge number but those that were, were some of the best riders in the world: Anders Michanek (World Champ in the year the Swedes were banned); Tommy Jansson; Soren Sjosten; Bengt Jansson; Bengt Persson: all were in the top 16 in the world at that time, and all made the World Final rostrum at least once, except of course for the great Tommy who was taken from us before that certainity came to pass... A far more significant % that I thought. One 'foreign' rider per team would do no harm, IMHO For so long as there are enough teams in the NL that all the Brits that are worthy of a place get a place that would be fine by me too. What we don't, as suggested, is a situation where there are no foreign riders and perhaps no older riders with 'wobblers' making up the short fall. That would not do the league or the riders any good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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