Witches

[orion]

Personally I think the EL is unsustainable in its present form, otherwise we would not be having this very discussion time in and time out. If it were then we would be discussing the number of teams that wanted to join and how we could fit them into the league instead of the number of clubs that want to leave.

 

From a purely business point of view and forgetting entertainment, number of teams, costs, entrance fees etc., the main problem is the lack of control that you have over how and when you sell your product to your market. The GP's, other FIM events, and the number of riders that compete in overseas leagues restrict your ability as a promoter to sell your product at a time that suits your customers. The GP's & World Cup have taken the prime summer weekends, the Polish league takes away Sundays and therefore in most cases Saturdays. For a lot of tracks this is prime time. I cannot imagine another business that would give its prime sites or trading times to anyone else without a huge fight. The EL has capitulated and is reaping the consequences. If they cannot compete against this then they must find another way. No GP riders, and no riders whose first commitment is to an overseas club. Speaking personally, and as an Eastbourne supporter (traditionally a weekend track), if that means PL speedway then fair enough, it's better than what we get now.

 

 

We have seen teams have prime time weekend in the Pl like Workington and Newport has it done them any good are crowds flocking to see them .....to much happens at weekends these days them day to make it prime time things hve moved on unlike some of the fans on here ( bring back one off finals golden helmet second halfs etc etc )

 

The crowds tell you l that people don't want to watch Pl and don' think t it better than what were watching now ....yet again if you could show me that Pl teams are bringing in big crowds and makeing tons of money then you may have a point but seeing that's not happening it can't be the case .

[orion]

 

 

No this culture of clubs losing money hand over fist has got to be reversed but that won't happen if the League stays the same or drops to 8 teams which then it would get worse. Crowds are at an all time low and a big reason for that is way the EL is run - it isn't value for money and not not supporter friendly.

 

 

Yet again you forget that The El is still bringing in bigger crowds than the Pl ...as for value for money the El is much better you paying 2 or 3 more to see a much better standard the Pl is poor value in teams of how much you pay to watch it and the poor crowds reflect that .

[richtea]

The thing that annoys me most about the elite league is the lack of variety. I can see the attraction of the premier league for that reason but I agree that it is a lower standard and that means the elite league remains the preferred option. I don't know how though that it is possible to bring more variety to the el without watering down the product.

[mickthemuppet]

Utd made an Operating profit of £100,000,000 last season and that shows that some sports ie football teams (as in your post)can and do make money, only a stupid debt by some American has put Utd from a very wealthy to a heavily debited club

Young hyderd -It's the easest thing in the world to make £100m profit in one year is you ignore all the costs to get there in the first place

[Daniel Smith]

Yet again you forget that The El is still bringing in bigger crowds than the Pl ...as for value for money the El is much better you paying 2 or 3 more to see a much better standard the Pl is poor value in teams of how much you pay to watch it and the poor crowds reflect that .

 

I think you're missing the point. It isn't about who has the biggest crowds, better riders, better stadium etc. It all about viability.

 

The facts are if you add up all the EL clubs margins and all the PL clubs margins the PL comes out better off and the PL has almost twice as many teams. That alone is what makes the PL more tempting for Ipswich. The financial difference means they they could take a hit in the numbers coming through the gate to start with. Once they start knocking in some decent home wins there will be the lost supporters tempted to have a look.

 

It was exactly the same for us at King's Lynn and I can confidently say our support has been better than it was for our last 10 years in the EL as a whole

[Matt Davis]

To be honest if I had a business that I made 300k profit a year on, and I didnt wanna pay so much tax I think a Speedway team would be an ideal investmet for getting the tax bill down

[richtea]

Not if the said business is making less profit than the cost of running the team!

[orion]

I think you're missing the point. It isn't about who has the biggest crowds, better riders, better stadium etc. It all about viability.

 

The facts are if you add up all the EL clubs margins and all the PL clubs margins the PL comes out better off and the PL has almost twice as many teams. That alone is what makes the PL more tempting for Ipswich. The financial difference means they they could take a hit in the numbers coming through the gate to start with. Once they start knocking in some decent home wins there will be the lost supporters tempted to have a look.

 

It was exactly the same for us at King's Lynn and I can confidently say our support has been better than it was for our last 10 years in the EL as a whole

 

 

Yet again it only counts for certain teams ....i think we all argree that if Louis is to run Ippo then Pl is the place for them but under someone i maintain they could make a very good El team the same if Kl were to be in the El .

[Pirate Nick]

Young hyderd -It's the easest thing in the world to make £100m profit in one year is you ignore all the costs to get there in the first place

 

They actually posted a loss. Taken from BBC News site:

 

The club's parent company, Red Football Limited, on Tuesday published financial results for the three months to 30 September that reveal turnover increased from £57.7m to £63.3m in comparison to the same three months in 2009.

 

The main reason for that is a rise in commercial revenue to £24.2m, up over 25%. It was also revealed that United's gross debt had fallen from £514.7m to £509.4m.

 

Last month, United announced a £79.6m pre tax loss for the last financial year, mainly due to one off interest and debt charges, but despite that, the club generated revenues of £278m and have more than £100m of cash reserves.

[Badge]

They actually posted a loss. Taken from BBC News site:

 

The club's parent company, Red Football Limited, on Tuesday published financial results for the three months to 30 September that reveal turnover increased from £57.7m to £63.3m in comparison to the same three months in 2009.

 

The main reason for that is a rise in commercial revenue to £24.2m, up over 25%. It was also revealed that United's gross debt had fallen from £514.7m to £509.4m.

 

Last month, United announced a £79.6m pre tax loss for the last financial year, mainly due to one off interest and debt charges, but despite that, the club generated revenues of £278m and have more than £100m of cash reserves.

And just think 1% of that £100mil would save Ipswich Witches!!!

[Gearhead]

Yet again you forget that The El is still bringing in bigger crowds than the Pl ...as for value for money the El is much better you paying 2 or 3 more to see a much better standard the Pl is poor value in teams of how much you pay to watch it and the poor crowds reflect that .

 

What exactly defines a better standard? Are you suggesting the Racing is better in th EL,because if you are I would think you'd be outnumbered by PL fans telling you different.Sometimes seeing so called "Top riders" also means seeing them clear off into the distance too

 

I think a read of screamers' post proves that it isn't always the case regarding crowds,only 1 EL club made a profit,in the PL the figure was way more and as for ambition to move to EL,it would be financial suicide for any team,sure there are clubs in the PL that are struggling but the established ones are all pretty certain to open their doors each year

[orion]

What exactly defines a better standard? Are you suggesting the Racing is better in th EL,because if you are I would think you'd be outnumbered by PL fans telling you different.Sometimes seeing so called "Top riders" also means seeing them clear off into the distance too

 

I think a read of screamers' post proves that it isn't always the case regarding crowds,only 1 EL club made a profit,in the PL the figure was way more and as for ambition to move to EL,it would be financial suicide for any team,sure there are clubs in the PL that are struggling but the established ones are all pretty certain to open their doors each year

 

 

So are saying that there are better standard riders than Chris Holder Freddie l and Kenny b in the Pl ? if not then the standard is better in the El hence why more people watch it . Unlike others i understand that the racing can be good and any standard if the mix/ track/ riders is right on any given day

[Dietbowers]

So are saying that there are better standard riders than Chris Holder Freddie l and Kenny b in the Pl ? if not then the standard is better in the El hence why more people watch it . Unlike others i understand that the racing can be good and any standard if the mix/ track/ riders is right on any given day

You`re having a right old bash on this topic orion,any body would think it`s a witchunt

[Lovey]

No this culture of clubs losing money hand over fist has got to be reversed but that won't happen if the League stays the same or drops to 8 teams which then it would get worse. Crowds are at an all time low and a big reason for that is way the EL is run - it isn't value for money and not supporter friendly.

 

Never a truer word spoken. Well said, and reflects everythign I've been trying to say for several years now.

 

Anyone who thinks otherwise ... wake up and smell the cappucino!

[hyderd]

Young hyderd -It's the easest thing in the world to make £100m profit in one year is you ignore all the costs to get there in the first place

 

You have just gone on my Xmas card list.

[Gearhead]

So are saying that there are better standard riders than Chris Holder Freddie l and Kenny b in the Pl ? if not then the standard is better in the El hence why more people watch it . Unlike others i understand that the racing can be good and any standard if the mix/ track/ riders is right on any given day

 

Yes I understand that the better riders are EL and if you prefer to go to watch them,you chose as you wish.Personaly I prefer better racing and that can be at any level,Sheffeild comes to mind as I've seen some decking racing there with Ashworth,Compton,Wilson etc and th PL racing Ive seem on TV this year has been superb

 

There have been some good El seasons at Foxhall but my most enjoyable years have been those at the National Leqgue level as it was in the 2nd division ,Loram,Louis,Dean Standing,Moggo etc,great years!

[25yearfan]

Yes that 1989/90 2 season spell in the old National League were in my opinion (and many others) some of the best seasons of speedway ever seen at Foxhall and I go back to when the speedway track was where the current stock car track is now!

 

But Ipswich also had multi talented riders like Loram, Louis, Standing Mogridge and others so if they are to drop down next season they can't afford a sub standard team!

 

(Mr all is well in the EL. Wake up please!) Orion totally misses the point I'm making. I've never said that all is rosy in the PL, certainly all levels of speedway af struggling in this Country currently. Though its fair to say that the PL is more financially viable than the EL simple as!

 

Most of the EL teams are losing money hand over fist just to say they are in the top flight. I'd say that the current EL is viable for about 3 teams, 4 at the very most. The rest, Ipswich, Lakeside (did you read Stuart Douglas' piece in the speedway star last week?) Eastbourne, Peterborough and Belle Vue are just in the EL because they are perceived as regular top flight clubs.

 

King's Lynn were a regular top flight club from the mid 60's to 2002(bar one year in 1996 closed) when they finally saw sense and moved down. This is the best thing they've ever done and I bet the club is more profitable than it was for many years in the top flight. In fact when they had Brian Griffin on board the club was getting bankrolled and losing lots of money. After Griffin got out, that was when Wagstaff couldn't afford to do it. King's Lynn should of really dropped down around 1986/87 when Martin Rogers was struggling and he wanted to but the fans then insisted it was topflight or nothing.

 

The current EL is p iss poor and needs changing. If it remains the same then it'll only get worse next season.

 

If you went back to say 1975, a year slap bang in the middle of speedways golden era in this Country and stripped the top flight down to 9 teams, only had a maximum of 20 or so Brits in it, made tracks run on irregular racenights, had many of the riders not giving it 100% every meeting, had no test matches, and had a fixture list with teams riding each other twice at home and twice away then even in them days you'd of ended up with a struggling League.

 

 

I've been going to Ipswich for many many years so know that the club if run properly by a go ahead promotion is one of the Countries speedway hotbeds, capable of getting crowds most tracks only dream off. Under the current EL while the Louis remain in charge, a return to such glory days isn't going to happen. It could be with a cash cow person throwing money at it like Rick Frost at Peterborough but these sugardaddy hobby promotors are only papering over the cracks of an unsustainable League!

 

Things need to back to an even keel!

 

Get back to basics would help which are -

 

The best Leagues in speedway are the big ones with lots of variety where you don't see the same teams and riders over and over.

 

More Brits in teams. Create more local interest and theirs enough PL Brits who could ride at a level a bit higher.

 

Regular racenights. Supporters are creatures of habit, even more so the casual fan.

 

No shuffling around rearranging everything around the GP's. Hardly any GP riders ride in the British Leagues now anyway and teams should be restricted to one GP rider. If a team wishes to run on a Friday or a Saturday night (the best 2 days for speedway) then they would have to bite the bullte and no GP rider or if the have a GP rider (which is their perrogative) face having some meeetings without the rider or shuffling fixtures around.

 

If these basic aspects of a good British League set up are followed then the top flight would be much better of.

 

This is why my blueprint of a 16 top flight at a level inbetween the current EL and PL, with a 10+ 2nd tier (where all tracks wishing to operate in the top 2 Divisions would have to start in, hopefully team numbers will increase) at a level inbetween the current PL and NL and a 3rd tier without the many riders who could ride at higher level could work?

 

Keeping the EL as it is not an option as far as I'm concerned and the Ipswich situation epitomises why!

Edited November 19, 2010 by 25yearfan

[orion]

Yes that 1989/90 2 season spell in the old National League were in my opinion (and many others) some of the best seasons of speedway ever seen at Foxhall and I go back to when the speedway track was where the current stock car track is now!

 

But Ipswich also had multi talented riders like Loram, Louis, Standing Mogridge and others so if they are to drop down next season they can't afford a sub standard team!

 

(Mr all is well in the EL. Wake up please!) Orion totally misses the point I'm making. I've never said that all is rosy in the PL, certainly all levels of speedway af struggling in this Country currently. Though its fair to say that the PL is more financially viable than the EL simple as!

 

Most of the EL teams are losing money hand over fist just to say they are in the top flight. I'd say that the current EL is viable for about 3 teams, 4 at the very most. The rest, Ipswich, Lakeside (did you read Stuart Douglas' piece in the speedway star last week?) Eastbourne, Peterborough and Belle Vue are just in the EL because they are perceived as regular top flight clubs.

 

King's Lynn were a regular top flight club from the mid 60's to 2002(bar one year in 1996 closed) when they finally saw sense and moved down. This is the best thing they've ever done and I bet the club is more profitable than it was for many years in the top flight. In fact when they had Brian Griffin on board the club was getting bankrolled and losing lots of money. After Griffin got out, that was when Wagstaff couldn't afford to do it. King's Lynn should of really dropped down around 1986/87 when Martin Rogers was struggling and he wanted to but the fans then insisted it was topflight or nothing.

 

The current EL is p iss poor and needs changing. If it remains the same then it'll only get worse next season.

 

If you went back to say 1975, a year slap bang in the middle of speedways golden era in this Country and stripped the top flight down to 9 teams, only had a maximum of 20 or so Brits in it, made tracks run on irregular racenights, had many of the riders not giving it 100% every meeting, had no test matches, and had a fixture list with teams riding each other twice at home and twice away then even in them days you'd of ended up with a struggling League.

 

 

I've been going to Ipswich for many many years so know that the club if run properly by a go ahead promotion is one of the Countries speedway hotbeds, capable of getting crowds most tracks only dream off. Under the current EL while the Louis remain in charge, a return to such glory days isn't going to happen. It could be with a cash cow person throwing money at it like Rick Frost at Peterborough but these sugardaddy hobby promotors are only papering over the cracks of an unsustainable League!

 

Things need to back to an even keel!

 

Get back to basics would help which are -

 

The best Leagues in speedway are the big ones with lots of variety where you don't see the same teams and riders over and over.

 

More Brits in teams. Create more local interest and theirs enough PL Brits who could ride at a level a bit higher.

 

Regular racenights. Supporters are creatures of habit, even more so the casual fan.

 

No shuffling around rearranging everything around the GP's. Hardly any GP riders ride in the British Leagues now anyway and teams should be restricted to one GP rider. If a team wishes to run on a Friday or a Saturday night (the best 2 days for speedway) then they would have to bite the bullte and no GP rider or if the have a GP rider (which is their perrogative) face having some meeetings without the rider or shuffling fixtures around.

 

If these basic aspects of a good British League set up are followed then the top flight would be much better of.

 

This is why my blueprint of a 16 top flight at a level inbetween the current EL and PL, with a 10+ 2nd tier (where all tracks wishing to operate in the top 2 Divisions would have to start in, hopefully team numbers will increase) at a level inbetween the current PL and NL and a 3rd tier without the many riders who could ride at higher level could work?

 

Keeping the EL as it is not an option as far as I'm concerned and the Ipswich situation epitomises why!

 

 

We had regular race nights brits etc no gp riders weekend racenights in the pl and the crowds keep going down to sometime under 300 ....normal old time fan thinks going back in time will bring the fans it won't times have moved on .

 

Tell you what bring back the one of world final monkey masks Golden helmet and second halfs ....i reckon by your posts you think that would be the way forward

[tigerowl]

It's no point arguing with some of the 'Elitists'.

 

Let them watch their processional rubbish and we'll watch the proper racing.

[skeletor]

It's no point arguing with some of the 'Elitists'.

 

Let them watch their processional rubbish and we'll watch the proper racing.

 

 

Yes you watch it with the other couple of hundred .