Team Building For 2011

[bruno]

can anyone give a few pointers to team building for next year.im under the impression we will lose lee smart cuz of his average but last year he averaged 9.45 and was allowed back.also,is it right aussies are only allowed the one year at nl level.therefore do we lose jake andersen and micky dyer.any info on any rules would be useful.thanks ;)just thought what about age restrictions.thanks again

Edited September 15, 2010 by bruno

[RHayes]

Bruno, aussies are allowed a maximum of 2 years in the NL. If Micky Dyer goes PL then he can't ride in the NL because his average in the PL would be 5.00. You can only ride in both leagues when at the start of the season your PL average is 4.00 or less or when your PL average becomes the 4.00 or less during the season. I don't think there age restrictions but i'm sure Jayne carry clarify this for us.

[Halifaxtiger]

Very interesting question, this.

 

I have spoken in the last few weeks to two current NL team managers and one former manager on this particular subject.

 

Two have advocated a cut in the points limit, one rather draconian (36) the other not quite so (around 38). The third wondered where the bottom end riders are going to come from to make up the places of the top liners who will be forced out, and I think he's got a point as there are just 5 riders in the U15 championship this season.

 

I do hope that restrictions are placed on Australians (with patriality or without) and that we see the kind of compromise between the stand alone and double up clubs most sensibly and reasonably suggested by one of the above three gentlemen, not one promoter selfishly and arrogantly demanding his own way at the expense and to the detriment of the majority of the rest of the teams. The NL can't survive without that. My other hope would be for the creation of an NL side jointly funded by our northern most clubs and sharing track facilities there.

 

I also hope that all the teams will be back in again and am optimistic that Mildenhall will return. The biggest question marks to my knowledge are over Plymouth (who may go PL) and Bournemouth.

Edited September 15, 2010 by Halifaxtiger

[TonyOfBrum]

Dont rule out the Brummies dropping down, especially if we continue to have p### poor crowds like last night. :mad:

 

Last week you were telling everyone how wonderful and fantastic and successful the Make Me A Fan initiative has been.

 

One poor crowd for an INDIVIDUAL meeting on a cold, wet night does not mean we are going to drop down a league. Although if we did, I am sure you would still be here, predicting rain-offs and defeats every week.

 

Anyway, back on topic…

[Ben91]

Bruno you will probably lose Lee Smart but due to his PL average being over 4 rather than his NL average. I think a points limit cut is a good idea tbh. There are plenty of riders without teams floating around who could ride NL not just those in the Under-15's championship. Lower the points limit and bring through more young Brits, simples.

[21st century heathen]

There could be changes to the rules for 2011 so we can only say how things stand for 2010.

 

Bruno, aussies are allowed a maximum of 2 years in the NL. If Micky Dyer goes PL then he can't ride in the NL because his average in the PL would be 5.00. You can only ride in both leagues when at the start of the season your PL average is 4.00 or less or when your PL average becomes the 4.00 or less during the season. I don't think there age restrictions but i'm sure Jayne carry clarify this for us.

 

 

Two successive seasons is correct for any Commonwealth rider. So Micky and Jake could ride for the Heathens again next season. Also, I'm not sure about his average. He won't complete 6H and 6A for the Heathens so he will not get a new NL average. Therefore he remains on his assessed 6.00. A rider moving up from the NL to PL apparently has an average of 3.00 (see below) for the new PL club but I'm not sure if this only applies to riders that have gained a NL average. As Micky would still be on an assessed NL average would that mean he would join a PL team (if he went PL full time) on a PL assessed average of 5.00 as a new Commonwealth rider?

 

17.3.3 For Riders transferring between Leagues, when a conversion is necessary, the factor shall be: from EL to PL or PL to NL (x2 of the actual CMA), from PL to EL (50% of the current CMA), subject to the minimum / maximum converted CMA's being 3.00 / 12.00 and from the NL to the PL it shall be 3.00.

 

Additionally, see below for further information on Commonwealth riders. Micky and Jake can only ride NL for the Heathens next season.

 

The rules actually state a PL rider must have a PL average of less that 4.00. Smart is averaging 5.87 for Stoke so would not be eligible to ride NL next season.

 

I think riders have to be 15 to ride in the NL and 16 (definitely) for the PL and EL.

 

Two have advocated a cut in the points limit, one rather draconian (36) the other not quite so (around 38). The third wondered where the bottom end riders are going to come from to make up the places of the top liners who will be forced out, and I think he's got a point as there are just 5 riders in the U15 championship this season.

 

I do hope that restrictions are placed on Australians (with patriality or without)...

 

I also hope that all the teams will be back in again and am optimistic that Mildenhall will return. The biggest question marks to my knowledge are over Plymouth (who may go PL) and Bournemouth.

 

Nooooooooooooo have they learnt nothing from the mess the EL is in from dropping the points limit so low a couple of years ago and the inflated averages that average riders have now?!! I could live with trimming it a fraction to 42 if absolutely necessary. But even then that could prove low and force riders out of the league. If Mildenhall do not return and Bournemouth are lost (strong hint by Matt Ford in his programme notes that were written about the Heathens' support down there a few weeks ago) then there will be riders on the market with nowhere to go.

 

Commonwealth riders are already limited to two per team.

 

17.4.7.6 Commonwealth Riders as permitted (see SR 17.3.2.2), subject to a maximum of 2 per club are limited to ride for a maximum of 2 consecutive seasons which must be with that same club. They cannot ride for an EL/PL Team under any circumstances, even as a Guest.

[RHayes]

There could be changes to the rules for 2011 so we can only say how things stand for 2010.

 

 

 

 

Two successive seasons is correct for any Commonwealth rider. So Micky and Jake could ride for the Heathens again next season. Also, I'm not sure about his average. He won't complete 6H and 6A for the Heathens so he will not get a new NL average. Therefore he remains on his assessed 6.00. A rider moving up from the NL to PL apparently has an average of 3.00 (see below) for the new PL club but I'm not sure if this only applies to riders that have gained a NL average. As Micky would still be on an assessed NL average would that mean he would join a PL team (if he went PL full time) on a PL assessed average of 5.00 as a new Commonwealth rider?

 

17.3.3 For Riders transferring between Leagues, when a conversion is necessary, the factor shall be: from EL to PL or PL to NL (x2 of the actual CMA), from PL to EL (50% of the current CMA), subject to the minimum / maximum converted CMA's being 3.00 / 12.00 and from the NL to the PL it shall be 3.00.

 

Additionally, see below for further information on Commonwealth riders. Micky and Jake can only ride NL for the Heathens next season.

 

The rules actually state a PL rider must have a PL average of less that 4.00. Smart is averaging 5.87 for Stoke so would not be eligible to ride NL next season.

 

I think riders have to be 15 to ride in the NL and 16 (definitely) for the PL and EL.

 

 

 

Nooooooooooooo have they learnt nothing from the mess the EL is in from dropping the points limit so low a couple of years ago and the inflated averages that average riders have now?!! I could live with trimming it a fraction to 42 if absolutely necessary. But even then that could prove low and force riders out of the league. If Mildenhall do not return and Bournemouth are lost (strong hint by Matt Ford in his programme notes that were written about the Heathens' support down there a few weeks ago) then there will be riders on the market with nowhere to go.

 

Commonwealth riders are already limited to two per team.

 

17.4.7.6 Commonwealth Riders as permitted (see SR 17.3.2.2), subject to a maximum of 2 per club are limited to ride for a maximum of 2 consecutive seasons which must be with that same club. They cannot ride for an EL/PL Team under any circumstances, even as a Guest.

 

 

 

21st, Micky would come in a 5.00 PL average due to being a commonwealth rider, which is a bit ridiculous as all riders from the NL should come into the PL on half their NL average unless they already have a PL average.

[21st century heathen]

17.3.3 as quote above does not make that distinction although it does say "where a conversion is necessary". I assume then that if he retains his assessed NL average it is not eligible to be converted and therefore he can only have an assessed PL average?

 

So with that in mind his best bet is to do his second permissible season in the NL, gain a true NL average and then go PL in 2012. He'll be on to a winner as he'll go PL on a lower converted average 2012 than he will assessed in 2011. I think going PL on 5.00 in 2011 is a bit early for him anyway. He's going well and is quick and stylish when he makes clean starts but he's still learning to navigate traffic from the back, something he would need to get used to in the PL as the riders are sharper away from the start.

 

In my opinion Anderson needs a second year NL too. He's grabbed some important double figure scores for us at times but is pretty uncomfortable at Monmore and I suspect other smaller tracks. He'll chewed up and spat out and places like Edinburgh for example.

 

That's getting into the realms of who the Heathens used next season if we are able to continue though, so back to the rules for the NL.

[Swift Saint]

Bruno you will probably lose Lee Smart but due to his PL average being over 4 rather than his NL average. I think a points limit cut is a good idea tbh. There are plenty of riders without teams floating around who could ride NL not just those in the Under-15's championship. Lower the points limit and bring through more young Brits, simples.

 

 

Well Ben you and I do not always see eye to eye on many issues but this time we are in total agreement.

 

Had the points limit been lower last season then we would perhaps not have lost a club through running out of money and there would have been more quality between the teams.

 

Several Promoters have expressed doubts to me about running next season with anything near to the present points limit.

 

Malcolm Vasey

[Diesel]

17.3.3 as quote above does not make that distinction although it does say "where a conversion is necessary". I assume then that if he retains his assessed NL average it is not eligible to be converted and therefore he can only have an assessed PL average?

 

So with that in mind his best bet is to do his second permissible season in the NL, gain a true NL average and then go PL in 2012. He'll be on to a winner as he'll go PL on a lower converted average 2012 than he will assessed in 2011. I think going PL on 5.00 in 2011 is a bit early for him anyway.

You are wrong with regards to Dyer. Unless rules change he will go into the Premier League on a 5 point average regardless of whether he has attained a real NL average. This was the case with Grant Tregoning who was set to join Newport's PL side on a 5 despite posting a 6.xx NL average the previous season (obviously that was before the promotion decided to go with Alex Davies instead).

[boston five]

i have been told there might not be any aussie,s allowed in n/l next year what would happen if they held a british passport

[greyhoundp]

To my mind, not only is a points limit required, but also an age limit on how many riders per team over 25, IMO this should be only one rider per team who is over 25, some may say tough, but this is primarily a development league, alongside this i would allow only 1 Commonwealth rider per team, and yes there should be a lower points limit perhaps 40, but i would think less than that would be to drastic.

[21st century heathen]

You are wrong with regards to Dyer. Unless rules change he will go into the Premier League on a 5 point average regardless of whether he has attained a real NL average. This was the case with Grant Tregoning who was set to join Newport's PL side on a 5 despite posting a 6.xx NL average the previous season (obviously that was before the promotion decided to go with Alex Davies instead).

 

 

So what does the bit in rule 17.3.3 mean then when it says NL to PL shall be 3.00? Genuine question mate.

 

i have been told there might not be any aussie,s allowed in n/l next year what would happen if they held a british passport

 

Unless the rules also stated no duel citizenship then any rider with a British passport should be okay.

 

To my mind, not only is a points limit required, but also an age limit on how many riders per team over 25, IMO this should be only one rider per team who is over 25, some may say tough, but this is primarily a development league...

 

 

That may prove counter productive in a sense. The experienced riders such as Armstrong can pass on a lot of info to the young lads.

 

 

 

[waco]

i have been told there might not be any aussie,s allowed in n/l next year what would happen if they held a british passport

I have also heard that no aussies allowed in the national league next year..? Perhaps Malcolm or Jane can tell us the situation ..? I would also advocate a reduction in the points limit.....To many british lads have lost team places to big hitters of obvious premier league standard this season..

Edited September 16, 2010 by waco

[montie]

I have also heard that no aussies allowed in the national league next year..?

 

i thing maybe the reason for this is,if i have read the stuff correct,with the current work permits/visa`s that are about these days,thay shouldnt be in it this year

 

Maybe the boarders agency will make the decision for the BSPA or SCB for them

[Jayne]

Well Ben you and I do not always see eye to eye on many issues but this time we are in total agreement.

 

Had the points limit been lower last season then we would perhaps not have lost a club through running out of money and there would have been more quality between the teams.

 

Several Promoters have expressed doubts to me about running next season with anything near to the present points limit.

 

Malcolm Vasey

 

 

Don't think you can blame the points limit for that Malcolm more likely the fact that riders are paid above the agreed pay scale and the gates aren't there to support it.

[Swift Saint]

Don't think you can blame the points limit for that Malcolm more likely the fact that riders are paid above the agreed pay scale and the gates aren't there to support it.

 

Yes but surely if the points limit was lower teams would not feel the need to recruit PL standard riders at inflated prices.

 

There would also be a market amongst the riders and that would help keep wages demanded lower.

 

The points limit has to come down for the League to survive. It has got out of hand and I am sure you realise that.

 

Also less non-British riders only those who will ultimately ride for Great Britain in my view.

 

There are stacks of riders in the various Amateur Meetings that would love to race regularly.

 

Even with a points limit of 36 that is less than one heat leader replaced by a three pointer.

 

Malcolm Vasey

Edited September 16, 2010 by Proud Potter

[Jayne]

Yes but surely if the points limit was lower teams would not feel the need to recruit PL standard riders at inflated prices.

 

There would also be a market amongst the riders and that would help keep wages demanded lower.

 

The points limit has to come down for the League to survive. It has got out of hand and I am sure you realise that.

 

Also less non-British riders only those who will ultimately ride for Great Britain in my view.

 

There are stacks of riders in the various Amateur Meetings that would love to race regularly.

 

Even with a points limit of 36 that is less than one heat leader replaced by a three pointer.

 

Malcolm Vasey

 

 

I personally think that 36 is far too low. Lowering the points limit in the EL hasn't really helped with costs in fact I dont think it will have too much effect on costs in the NL if anything it will push the lower averaged riders demands up because they will be more in demand especially if they are on false averages. Its swings and roundabouts really you push the top guys out in theory to save money but then the lower guys become more valuable. If you listen to the comments made regarding the EL and the lowering of the points limit it has made the product less competitive as the standard is not as high but the costs do not reflect the standard of the league which some feel isn't that much higher than the PL. I agree the league needs a major shake up as costs are spiralling both for riders and promoters how we do that though is anyones guess.

 

As for the Australians in the league you can only have two per club anyway so dont think this needs to be limited any further. What does need to be done though is stringent policing of such riders so that there is no suggestion of ineligible riders competing. I personally just dont see where all the extra riders are coming from if you ban the aussies and lower the points limit drastically. There are only a handful of riders competing in the 500cc class of the U15s this year and very few riders on the sidelines who want to or are able to hold down a team spot.

[Mr S Bear]

The only Commonwealth/Australian riders who are only allowed to ride in the NL for two years are those who do not have a patrially/ancestry visa. To get a rhis type of visa one of their grandparents must have been was born in the UK or in the case of grandparents born in what is now the Irish Republic born prior to 1922. To find out more about visa requirements see UKBA web site, www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk or the Mark Jones topic. All other Australian/Commonwealth riders I beleive should be tier 5 permit holders under the youth mobility scheme and can only ride for two years in NL, can not ride in PL/EL and must ride as amateurs.

The only people saying that Australians will be banned in the NL in 2011 are Newport in this weeks Speedway Star and they are saying " we are not allowed to use Australians" so maybe the ban only apply to Welsh teams maybe as a form of punishment for wrong doing in 2010, see Mark Jones topic, and other teams may be subject to a similar ban if the BSPA take a close look at riders permits/visas/passports maybe something they should have done prior to riders taking part in the NL as part of their role as a governering body appointed by the UKBA to police the immigration rules in speedway on thir behalf rather than it appears taking the words of promoters as gospel.

[greyhoundp]

21st, i have always been in favour of 1 experienced rider in every team, but when you start to have 2/3 riders over say 25 in a NL Team then whats the point, they are not going to improve,and if they are not of PL standard by that age, then i am sorry, and it may seem harsh but they should not clog up the system for youngsters who are trying to make there way in the sport.

 

Costs as jayne says they need to be brought down, but how it is done is another matter, will Teams agree to adhere to any points or expences limit, and more pertinently if they do who will police it..? YES there should be a points and expences limit, if Teams dont want to stick to it, then they should ride in the PL, policing it is an ENTIRELY different matter.

Edited September 17, 2010 by greyhoundp