British Sgp Decline

[Humphrey Appleby]

You have to consider the much larger geographical area speedway covers now.

 

I'm not sure that speedway is ridden in any more countries than it was years ago, and the main professional circuits are still in the four or five countries they always were. As to whether speedway is more widely watched (geographically) on television, well that's a bit debatable even if BSI do claim it's being shown in Dijbouti or wherever.

 

What certainly changed was that more countries wanted to stage a 'World Final', and in the case of Denmark and Germany they perhaps had a reasonable case at the time. However, taking the showpiece event to backwater stadiums in small countries hastened the decline of the World Final, and frankly shouldn't have been allowed. UEFA wouldn't stage the Champions League Final in Latvia or Slovenia (with all due respect to those countries) because they don't have the facilities or fanbases, yet the FIM were apparently happy to allow the World Final to go to Norden, Pocking and Amsterdam.

 

Even then, despite the supposed decline of the World Final, as many people watched the latter events in Poland and Sweden as go to the GPs there now, and a British World Final would probably have got as many as Cardiff if there had been a decent-sized stadium available at the time. Even Bradford got 25,000 which is an attendance most contemporary GPs would be very happy with.

 

The GP was and is simply about making the competition saleable to television and sponsors, which would be fine if this money actually benefitted the sport rather than enriching a private corporation.

 

I'll fully admit that I lost interest in the World Championship after the SGP was introduced (even pre-BSI), simply because part of the attraction was following the riders from your team through the various qualifying rounds, hopefully eventually to the Final. I never really had a lot of interest in individual racing though, so once that link was broken, my interest waned.

 

Nevertheless, I certainly don't think we should live in the past, and I can see certain advantages to having a GP series. I do think the current format suffers from overkill and a lack of variety, but that's nothing that can't be fixed.

 

However, what absolutely does need to change is for the national leagues to cut themselves in on the deal. You can't blame BSI for exploiting a commercial opportunity, but it's ridiculous that the golden goose was allowed to be sold off by the FIM.

 

Furthermore, not everyone bought into the BSI hype (reserving judgement on the current IMG incarnation). Their success was packaging up the existing events and selling them to television (albeit for a relatively moderate sum) as well as pulling in a few sponsors, but their promotional capabilities didn't seem anything special and fiascos like Gothenburg were just down to poor organisation (regardless of who was supposed to do what).

 

Unfortunately, SGP devotees only seem to see things in black-and-white. Unless you unequivocally praise the SGP then somehow you're 'anti-SGP' even if you might support the basic concept albeit not the way things are currently implemented.

[mickthemuppet]

One of the benefits of the old system of one off world finals was that any profits made went back into Speedway. The prize money for the present GP's is a pittance. Where does the rest of the money go,certainly not back into Speedway.

 

Young Orion there are still no hopers in the GP's at present and there has been every year so that is no change on the previous system.

 

Probably Leigh Adams and Tomasz Gollob have been the best two riders in the last decade but neither has been world champion. I bet they both would have been under the old system. Then Mark Loram became become a world champion without winning a GP that year. Any other Sports where you can be World Champion without winning anything.

[Humphrey Appleby]

As time passed, the Speedway World Championship as it was had simply not moved with the times and slipped into irrelevance. From 85 onwards, I think only Vojens 88 and 94 actually got any terrestrial coverage and they were one week late in 30 minute BBC Sunday Grandstand highlights packages.

 

There's a couple of points to be made here. Firstly, I think there's a reasonable argument that the World Final was run into the ground by the FIM to justify the introduction of a GP system which could be sold. It's reasonable to say that crowds had declined, but neither were they that bad at 'proper' venues either. Certainly the crowds at the likes of Munich, Gothenburg and Wroclaw were as good or better as at modern GPs, and even those at Vojens and Bradford were better than at most GPs now.

 

Secondly, satellite and cable television was still in its infancy in the late-1980s and there was much less scope than now for getting speedway on television. Even live football was a relative rarity, but by the time the SGP came to fruition, channels were proliferating and were desperate for content. The FA Cup is a knockout competition and is shown on television, so there's no reason to believe television wouldn't show the old-style World Championship if was presented in the right way.

[fatface]

And tell me falcace, why do you consider Speedway at the Olympic Stadium so utterly ridiculous..? If you knew anything about the Olympic authorities' desire for legacy and for maximising use of the main stadium (I actually work for an organisation with day to day contact on these various issues concerning the Olympic Park and surrounding area...) then you wouldn't dismiss this with such ignorant contempt.

Yes I do dismiss the prospect of a World Final being at the Olympic Stadium as you suggested above (re-read if you must) as it was only good enough for the Nordens, Pockings, Bradfords and Vojens of this world until it's inevitable demise. And you dismiss the prospect of a British GP being there (re-read if you must). Which I actually don't think is impossible. So, if not a GP, what is this great big speedway meeting at the Olympic Park that you have in mind then? Golden Greats by chance?

 

It's digressing (as you seem to be increasingly relying upon), but I also work for an organisation with close links to the sporting legacy of the Olympic Park and previously worked as spokesman for a National Governing Body who has a large interest in the stadium legacy. So, yep, I do know a little about that too.

 

Now come on Parsoles...one last chance...tell us how going back to the old World Finals will bring in massive TV audiences and massive crowds. Convince me...please

[orion]

One of the benefits of the old system of one off world finals was that any profits made went back into Speedway. The prize money for the present GP's is a pittance. Where does the rest of the money go,certainly not back into Speedway.

 

Young Orion there are still no hopers in the GP's at present and there has been every year so that is no change on the previous system.

 

Probably Leigh Adams and Tomasz Gollob have been the best two riders in the last decade but neither has been world champion. I bet they both would have been under the old system. Then Mark Loram became become a world champion without winning a GP that year. Any other Sports where you can be World Champion without winning anything.

 

 

Adams and Gollob have not been the best riders in the last decade and they have never won it because over the season they were never good enough ...you can be a world champion in f1 without winning anythink , you can BE no 1 in the world in golf and not win anythink in a year Just like Tiger Woods has .

 

 

When you come to think of it there are loads of other sports when you don't have win a round to be World Champion ,plus if the people knew they had to win maybe they would have put more effort in to do so ... in Loram case he done what he had to do to become world champion .

Edited September 3, 2010 by orion

[Humphrey Appleby]

If you knew anything about the Olympic authorities' desire for legacy and for maximising use of the main stadium

 

Unfortunately, I think economic realities will set in with the Olympic Stadium and it'll be sold off as a football ground or dramatically reduced in capacity if it stays as an athletics stadium. Large athletics stadiums are simply unsustainable as evidenced by the crumbling Olympic stadiums around the world.

[MattK]

One of the benefits of the old system of one off world finals was that any profits made went back into Speedway. The prize money for the present GP's is a pittance. Where does the rest of the money go,certainly not back into Speedway.

I don't agree with this "trickle down" arguement.

 

The only time speedway receives any kind of national media coverage is during the Cardiff GP. If we didn't have a GP, then there would be no media coverage at all.

 

If promoters cannot take this and built on it, then that's their problem.

[Humphrey Appleby]

The only time speedway receives any kind of national media coverage is during the Cardiff GP. If we didn't have a GP, then there would be no media coverage at all.

 

I'm not sure how an occasional 2 or 3 column inches in the national press justifies speedway not getting a cut of any profits. Moreover, many sports with virtually no national coverage whatsoever get better attendances than speedway.

 

National media coverage is even less critical in these days when fewer and fewer people read papers, and television viewing is diluted over umpteen channels.

Edited September 3, 2010 by Humphrey Appleby

[george.m]

If you say so

 

Surely the "very important point" of earlier start time can't be the key factor for the significant decline in viewing figures decline in both 2009 & 2010?

 

Why not?

[Jeff Scott]

Why not?

 

Firstly, my article discussed many factors while the comment you quote from the BSF also has a context you're taking it out of &, er, to answer your query:

 

since the Cardiff SGP rounds in 2009 & 2010 both started at 5pm - the 79,000 shortfall this year is an apples with apples comparison (rather than an exceptional new explanatory circumstance I'd failed to mention as the other gentleman had noted).

 

Apparently some feel the 104,000 shortfall in 2009 was exceptional circumstance prompted by changing the start time from 7pm to 5pm rather than being any reflection upon the diminishing enthusiasm of the UK television audience (as recorded by BARB). This PoV ignores the trend towards falling audience figures for other SGP rounds (where the start times remained the same) in both 2009 & 2010

[george.m]

Firstly, my article discussed many factors while the comment you quote from the BSF also has a context you're taking it out of &, er, to answer your query:

 

since the Cardiff SGP rounds in 2009 & 2010 both started at 5pm - the 79,000 shortfall this year is an apples with apples comparison (rather than an exceptional new explanatory circumstance I'd failed to mention as the other gentleman had noted).

 

Apparently some feel the 104,000 shortfall in 2009 was exceptional circumstance prompted by changing the start time from 7pm to 5pm rather than being any reflection upon the diminishing enthusiasm of the UK television audience (as recorded by BARB). This PoV ignores the trend towards falling audience figures for other SGP rounds (where the start times remained the same) in both 2009 & 2010

Sorry Jeff I remain to be convinced. We are not comparing apples with apples. You cannot ignore the fact that the world cup was on at this time. That has an impact on viewing figures, not only from a perspective of direct competition i.e. simultaneous broadcasting, but time available to watch TV. In other words, "only X amount of sport allowed on the TV in our house today".There would be world cup parties and barbecues. A 5pm start means there is less latent viewers available as 5pm is a time when people could be returning from an afternoon out or getting a meal ready. An evening start means more people are available to watch. The weather in both years is also a factor have you considered this?

 

More factors need to be considered before a valid and impartial conclusion can be drawn.

Edited September 3, 2010 by george.m

[Parsloes 1928 nearly]

The only time speedway receives any kind of national media coverage is during the Cardiff GP. If we didn't have a GP, then there would be no media coverage at all.

 

Does it...??

1) I've never noticed any significant national media coverage for the Cardiff GP; and 2) Actually the Daily Mirror (a national paper.. ) has a small column in it something like five days a week, featuring Speedway news. Actually this column is no bigger on the ocassion of Cardiff than any other time!!!

 

TV coverage..? Well, do you suppose that the TV figures for a World Final on Sky are going to be somehow hugely less than for a GP..? I'm actually not too bothered about TV viewing figures, I'm more concerned about numbers attending in the flesh AND on our sport and its riders having a proper World Championship...

 

Hold a GP at the Olympic Stadium - but what I'm saying is that at the end of the day, an event when something's actually decided as opposed to just a 'qualifer' type meeting is ALWAYS going to capture the public's imagination far more.. A World Final in October 2012 at what would at that point be the most famous stadium in the world...: can you even conceive of what a boost to our sport that would be..?!!

[WIE-JA]

Does it...??

1) I've never noticed any significant national media coverage for the Cardiff GP; and 2) Actually the Daily Mirror (a national paper.. ) has a small column in it something like five days a week, featuring Speedway news. Actually this column is no bigger on the ocassion of Cardiff than any other time!!!

 

TV coverage..? Well, do you suppose that the TV figures for a World Final on Sky are going to be somehow hugely less than for a GP..? I'm actually not too bothered about TV viewing figures, I'm more concerned about numbers attending in the flesh AND on our sport and its riders having a proper World Championship...

 

Hold a GP at the Olympic Stadium - but what I'm saying is that at the end of the day, an event when something's actually decided as opposed to just a 'qualifer' type meeting is ALWAYS going to capture the public's imagination far more.. A World Final in October 2012 at what would at that point be the most famous stadium in the world...: can you even conceive of what a boost to our sport that would be..?!!

Something is always decided at a GP-the winner of that particular Grand Prix! Other motorsports do quite well with this system whether on 2, 3 or 4 wheels. Much better to have 10 or 11 GPs per season on telly than one World Final that casual viewers might forget to watch.

[Jeff Scott]

Sorry Jeff I remain to be convinced. We are not comparing apples with apples. You cannot ignore the fact that the world cup was on at this time. That has an impact on viewing figures, not only from a perspective of direct competition i.e. simultaneous broadcasting, but time available to watch TV. In other words, "only X amount of sport allowed on the TV in our house today".There would be world cup parties and barbecues. A 5pm start means there is less latent viewers available as 5pm is a time when people could be returning from an afternoon out or getting a meal ready. An evening start means more people are available to watch. The weather in both years is also a factor have you considered this?

 

More factors need to be considered before a valid and impartial conclusion can be drawn.

 

Well, George, you've certainly come up with quite a few novel mitigating factors! I like your creativity. Considering all these it's a marvellous achievement they cobbled together more than 10 viewers

 

Let's not forget it could be bath night or, perhaps, clothes needed ironing or maybe a mass turn off after horoscopes warning of back luck for any Gemini's or Aries watching too much satellite telly?

 

Wish I'd been invited to one of those Third Place Play off "world cup parties and barbecues"

[Parsloes 1928 nearly]

Something is always decided at a GP-the winner of that particular Grand Prix! Other motorsports do quite well with this system whether on 2, 3 or 4 wheels. Much better to have 10 or 11 GPs per season on telly than one World Final that casual viewers might forget to watch.

 

Hmm, but how much does it actually matter who wins the GP.. Fairly often a rider outscores the winner on the night and all that REALLY matters is that points total on the way to first place in the series overall...

In other words each GP has the status of an 'Inter-Continental Final': and I've read plenty of the usual suspects branding those meetings of the past utterly worthless in terms of winning...! And coz the GB round is so early in the series it doesn't even get the status of an Inter-Continental Final...!! It's more like the Nordic-British event!!!

 

You can tell how little importance winning an individual round is from Greg Hancock's attitude in the GB GP Final of 2007... Anyone really believe he'd have let Crump past him on that last bend; but harmless home rider, Harris..?: well, that's a different matter... And before the GP apologists line up to cry how Greg didn't let Bomber past him in that fateful race etc., fast forward in your memory to the GB GP Final the next year when the Sky commenators openly referred to the fact that he had!!!

 

That sort of thing is always possible when there are such veterans in the field with no hope of actually winning the whole series (Hancock was last World Champ in 1997 for goodness sake!!) - sure he's still a major player but he can clearly take it or leave it; and what's really needed in a World Championship is everyone determined to do all they can to win it..

[WIE-JA]

Hmm, but how much does it actually matter who wins the GP.. Fairly often a rider outscores the winner on the night and all that REALLY matters is that points total on the way to first place in the series overall...

In other words each GP has the status of an 'Inter-Continental Final': and I've read plenty of the usual suspects branding those meetings of the past utterly worthless in terms of winning...! And coz the GB round is so early in the series it doesn't even get the status of an Inter-Continental Final...!! It's more like the Nordic-British event!!!

 

You can tell how little importance winning an individual round is from Greg Hancock's attitude in the GB GP Final of 2007... Anyone really believe he'd have let Crump past him on that last bend; but harmless home rider, Harris..?: well, that's a different matter... And before the GP apologists line up to cry how Greg didn't let Bomber past him in that fateful race etc., fast forward in your memory to the GB GP Final the next year when the Sky commenators openly referred to the fact that he had!!!

 

That sort of thing is always possible when there are such veterans in the field with no hope of actually winning the whole series (Hancock was last World Champ in 1997 for goodness sake!!) - sure he's still a major player but he can clearly take it or leave it; and what's really needed in a World Championship is everyone determined to do all they can to win it..

It is important to riders to win GPs. Not only is there financial reward on the night, but also status when approaching sponsors, negotiating contracts with continental promoters, and of course they are competitors and they all want to win. The old qualifying rounds had no relevance for casual tv viewers etc. People recognise titles such as European Champion, World Champion and of Grand Prix winner.

[Parsloes 1928 nearly]

The old qualifying rounds had no relevance for casual tv viewers etc. People recognise titles such as European Champion, World Champion and of Grand Prix winner.

 

European Champion was indeed the title bestowed on the winner of the penultimate round in the Western European part of the qualifying process up to the mid-70s... Peter Collins won the European Final in 1974 at, er, that little known ramshackle track out in the middle of nowhere called Wembley Stadium!!

 

BTW, I still haven't heard any coherent argument actually in FAVOUR of the GP system... All its apologists do is attack what they perceive as the shortcomings (and as in several threeads above they more often than not get these wrong! ) of the previous system of worldwide QRs and a one-off Final!

 

These people remind me of those on another part of the BSF who can only defend the Monarchy by pointing out what they perecive as the weakness in having a President!

If something's good it should be able to be defended for its own merits not the demerits of alternative systems!!

So come on, over to the GP brigade!!!

[george.m]

Well, George, you've certainly come up with quite a few novel mitigating factors! I like your creativity. Considering all these it's a marvellous achievement they cobbled together more than 10 viewers

 

Let's not forget it could be bath night or, perhaps, clothes needed ironing or maybe a mass turn off after horoscopes warning of back luck for any Gemini's or Aries watching too much satellite telly?

 

Wish I'd been invited to one of those Third Place Play off "world cup parties and barbecues"

 

Well Jeff unlike you I don't have a pre-conceived personal agenda that I'm working to and/or a single, self opinionated point of view of people who at least try to improve speedway. They don't hide behind a keyboard critiquing it, they have the entrepreneurial spirit to aim higher. The tone and content of your reply was exactly what I suspected it would be ... but thought I'd put to the test! Thank you.

 

You really should show more respect to the people who buy or could potentially buy your books.

 

PS ... Having been involved in brand marketing and advertising for over 30 years I do have a wee bit of knowledge of what can affect TV ratings and despite the stand point you write from I have seen little evidence of a valid, impartial and credible argument from you on this "catastrophic further collapse"!

[Parsloes 1928 nearly]

You really should show more respect to the people who buy or could potentially buy your books.

 

Bloody hell, Jeff's been on a one man (with pen and hidden tape recorder...) crusade to upset the whole of the Speedway world since 2005... There can barely be anyone he's not dissed in one way or another by now..

[orion]

 

Wish I'd been invited to one of those Third Place Play off "world cup parties and barbecues"

 

 

Me to ..you could put all the gabage you write on the fire next time you have a go try to put all the facts together before having a dig with your bias rubbish .