Detailed Polish Club Attendances

[manchesterpaul]

Latest figures for clubs in Poland.

 

Attendance by Club

 

1. Falubaz Zielona Góra - 12,250 (8 meetings, total 98,000)

2. Unia Leszno - 10,214 (7 meetings, total 71,500)

3. Caelum Stal Gorzów - 8,928 (7 meetings, total 62,500)

4. Tauron Azoty Tarnów - 7,000 (7 meetings, total 49,000)

5. Unibax Toruń - 6,782 (7 meetings, total 47,478)

6. Włókniarz Częstochowa - 6,714 (7 meetings, total 47,000)

7. Betard Wrocław - 6,250 (8 meetings, total 50,000)

8. Lotos Wybrzeże Gdańsk - 5,375 (8 meetings, total 43,000)

9. Start Gniezno - 5,285 (7 meetings, total 37,000)

10.Lokomotiv Daugavpils - 5,285 (7 meetings, total 37,000)

11.Polonia Bydgoszcz - 5,000 (7 meetings, total 35,000)

12.Marma Hadykówka Rzeszów - 4,075 (8 meetings, total 32,600)

13.RKM ROW Rybnik - 3,937 (8 meetings, total 31,500)

14.Ostrovia Ostrów - 3,375 (8 meetings, total 27,000)

15.GTŻ Grudziądz - 3,062 (8 meetings, total 24,500)

16.Wanda Kraków - 3,000 (7 meetings, total 21,000)

16.PSŻ Lechma Poznań - 3,000 (7 meetings, total 21,000)

18.Speedway Polonia Piła - 2,785 (7 meetings, total 19,500)

19.KMŻ Lublin - 2,714 (7 meetings, total 19,000)

20.Kolejarz Opole - 2,000 (7 meetings, total 14,000)

21.Orzeł Łódź - 1,975 (8 meetings, total 15,800)

22.KSM Krosno - 1,657 (7 meetings, total 11,600)

23.Speedway Miszkolc - 1,128 (7 meetings, total 7,900)

24.Kolejarz Rawicz - 771 (7 meetings, total 5,400)

Edited August 19, 2010 by manchesterpaul

[HenryW]

Those figures make pretty grim reading for Polish speedway.

 

Excluding Krakow, who didn't race last year, the only club to see a rise in attendance over the same period in 2009 is Daugavpils.

 

Admittedly it's been a bad year for Polish speedway, with the fixture list being thrown into confusion by the tragic plane crash early in the season and some dreadful weather, leading to a lot of re-arranged fixtures. However, some of the drops in attendance are quite frightening and will surely have had a massive impact on the accounts of those clubs.

 

For example, Rybnik are down by 52%, Poznan by 50%, Bydgoszcz 45%, Torun 43%, Gdansk 43%. Even league leaders Leszno are down by 15%.

In the Extraliga, Wroclaw have stayed the most consistent, going down by under 1%, but they already had pretty bad crowds last year!

[Mateusz]

This season has been tragic as for the attendances at league matches in Poland and the whole league system (regulations, riders' pays, ticket prices etc...) has to be changed asap...

 

...and it will be done - lots of changes in Polish speedway starting from next season.

[BigFatDave]

This season has been tragic as for the attendances at league matches in Poland and the whole league system (regulations, riders' pays, ticket prices etc...) has to be changed asap...

 

...and it will be done - lots of changes in Polish speedway starting from next season.

....as long as they don't change the SWC dates - I've already booked!! Don't drink all the Lech, Mateusz, leave some for me!

[Fingersfin]

This season has been tragic as for the attendances at league matches in Poland and the whole league system (regulations, riders' pays, ticket prices etc...) has to be changed asap...

 

...and it will be done - lots of changes in Polish speedway starting from next season.

 

 

Interesting stuff Mateusz have you any feel on what changes will be made.

 

Its amazing that Torun has dropped by so much with the worlds greatest speedway stadium in place, is that purely down to ticket prices?

 

.....slightly off topic but how far is it from the Bydgoszcz train station to the stadium as I have to collect my tickets on the day of the GP...can't wait..the place is going to go off!!

Edited August 19, 2010 by Fingersfin

[ChrissySW]

The crowds are good in comparison with British equivalent, in fact very good. However I get the feeling that they're not as good as might be hoped taking into account the huge sums of money paid to riders over there.

[manchesterpaul]

Those figures make pretty grim reading for Polish speedway.

 

Excluding Krakow, who didn't race last year, the only club to see a rise in attendance over the same period in 2009 is Daugavpils.

 

Aren't we again guilty of looking at the fall in attendances in speedway as if they are an isolated case?. Live sports across the world on the whole have less spectators than they used to. Last figures i could find for the top tier of polish football (their Premier League) was 7,500 a couple of years ago. The second tier was only around 3,400.

 

As all over the globe don't forget football gets mass media coverage every day of the year and is instilled into your awareness form birth to grave. So speedway does fare pretty well in reality.

 

I presume polish speedway would disappear or become amateur if they had to budget on UK crowds of around the 1,000 mark?

Edited August 19, 2010 by manchesterpaul

[Mateusz]

....as long as they don't change the SWC dates - I've already booked!! Don't drink all the Lech, Mateusz, leave some for me!

It's got nothing to do with the SWC dates Have they already been set, anyway?

 

Interesting stuff Mateusz have you any feel on what changes will be made.

Yeah, it's been pretty widely discussed over here for a while. The changes have been initially agreed at some meeting of the Ekstraliga promoters and now they are waiting for the Ekstraliga authorities to approve them.

 

Will try to say it briefly (as it's a VERY complex problem ) and point out the main issues - The biggest problem of the Polish league at the moment is that riders' wages have risen so much that most clubs struggle with making it even. They've got to pay off their riders and close their budgets, though - otherwise they'd not get a licence to ride in Ekstraliga next year. However, most clubs struggle financially more or less, mostly because riders want LOTS of money (a few times more than in UK / Sweden) and the Ekstraliga promoters are usually stupid enough to agree and sign such ridiculous contracts cause otherwise they could only get some average riders, lose all their matches and then fall down to Division 1. None wants it, of course, so this phenomenon has been escalating for years now and it is sick - riders wanting more and more money every year and the promoters agreeing cause otherwise after the season they'd be hung on local market squares by the fans, sponsors and others who care about the result only...

 

...Anyway, the system has to be changed cause: more money for riders require more expensive tickets. And expensive tickets is the MAIN reason of the poor attendances pasted above. There are other reasons as well (such as postponing many matches earlier the season - rain, national mourning, rain, floodings, rain etc., poorer results than expected in case of some teams - Bydgoszcz e.g.) but all in all the Polish society and speedway fans here are not too rich, in majority, and sometimes people cannot afford paying 30-40 zlotys for an Ekstraliga ticket (6-8 quid). I remember good old times when a ticket didn't cost much more than 20 zl. So... to get more fans at the stadiums the prices have to be reduced, at least a bit, and some regulations should be changed as well...

 

...Currently there are 8 teams in Ekstraliga, everyone rides again everyone home & away which gives us 14 rounds. Then we have the play-off's... which actually start from scratch and this seems to be the problem. The only advantage of finishing 1st after these 14 rounds is that in play-off you ride against the team that finished 6th (2nd with 5th, 3rd with 4th) which obviously makes your chances of going through much bigger but still, you can get the impression that it's pretty too much fuss just to finish on the position which makes your task in the play-off a bit easier. Theoretically, you can finish 6th and still become the Champion. Play-off's are super interesting but on the other side of the coin - some matches of these first 14 rounds are not really that important in such system. And fans knowing that actually everything's still possible in the play-off's give up going to some matches (of the first 14 rounds) since it's not cheap anymore to take your wife and kid to the stadium every Sunday afternoon, especially that apart from quality racing, a given match may mean nothing in terms of league points and place in the league table.

 

To reverse this tendency, they've started thinking and thinking and...

 

1) In two years they want to have 10 teams in Ekstraliga...

2) ...which would provide you at least 18 matches each season (currently you have 16-20 depending on where you finish in the play-off).

3) Then there would be some little play-off, just to keep the tension till the last rounds (19 & 20th) - like 1st & 2nd team fighting home & away for the title and maybe 3rd & 4th team fighting for the bronze. And then this would be it - league points scored through 18 rounds would be crucial and matches more important.

4) To get 10 teams in Ekstraliga we need 2 teams to qualify from Division 1. Which is going to take place next year. No team is going to be relegated from Ekstraliga next year then (for the first time in history, as far as I know) while two teams of Divsion 1 are going to be promoted to ride in Ekstraliga in 2012.

5) So, theoretically, next year some clubs struggling financially could build up really weak teams - just to survive and ride a season, even losing everything - they'd not be relegated in the end, anyway. So to prevent them from this, they want to introduce some CMA's again - not sure about details but there's probably going to be something like a minimal CMA and maximum CMA for a team line-up. Just to keep Ekstraliga teams at certain quality level and to provide more close results, theoretically.

6) If Ekstraliga has 10 teams starting from 2012, Division 1 & 2 will probably be merged into one league, but that's just my presumption. And they'd probably kick out teams like Daugavpils and Miskolc if they had to merge these both leagues into one.

 

Its amazing that Torun has dropped by so much with the worlds greatest speedway stadium in place, is that purely down to ticket prices?

In that order:

1) ticket prices

2) relatively poor results this season

 

Apart from a few speedway cities (like ZG miles ahead of everyone and then maybe Gorzow and Leszno) Polish fans are very fussy and demanding good results, especially if they are used to successes every year. There's always a group of some die hard fans who would attend every meeting of their team in every league but that's not so many of them - in Bydgoszcz it's about 3000 people - I reckon. To attract other people to your stadium you need: 1st) good results (success!) 2nd) relatively reasonable ticket prices 3rd) good stadium facilities.

 

This is why Bydgoszcz has got the worst attendances this year in Ekstraliga - the team lost most of their matches (because of Sayfutdinov's injury - Emil rode in only 4 matches for Bydgoszcz this year (out of 18-20 in total) and poor performances of the other riders) while the ticket prices went up before the season. Bydgoszcz fans are very spoilt as at some point of the Gollob era in Bydgoszcz we were winning the league every second year (4 Championship titles in 6 years: 1997, 1998, 2000, 2002) - people remember those times and don't wanna now watch some team fighting for staying up in Ekstraliga (except me & 2999 other die hard fans who would go to every match, no matter what )

 

.....slightly off topic but how far is it from the Bydgoszcz train station to the stadium as I have to collect my tickets on the day of the GP...can't wait..the place is going to go off!!

10-15 minutes by a cab.

 

PS. Forgot to add - Taking care of Polish young riders they also want to give them more opportunities to ride in league matches. There may be 16 races in a match, inc two u-21 rides (there's one u-21 heat now - the first one) + some extra restrictions when it comes to signing up foreigners (putting them into your line-up).

Edited August 19, 2010 by Mateusz

[brandonbee48]

Mateusz, we all owe you a vote of thanks for your very lucid explanation of what lies in store. You make absolute sense. Thank you. Alan.

[BigFatDave]

Mateusz, we all owe you a vote of thanks for your very lucid explanation of what lies in store. You make absolute sense. Thank you. Alan.

I'll just second that Alan; Mateusz, we all owe you a beer!

[brandonbee48]

I'll just second that Alan; Mateusz, we all owe you a beer!

I believe that you are in Australia, my friend, and i am in the USA, so we should send him a Fosters and a Budweiser! Seriously, he writes VERY well. Makes me ashamed that i don't understand a word when watching the (magnificent) entertainment from Poland each Sunday on the net.I have bought a Polish dictionary, but it's going to take a long time. Now if the cracker who does the studio on the Polish GP coverage would like to make herself available....... What a godsend it is, having it available on the net.I go down on my knees in thanks to the streamers! With the GPs, Sunday-Poland, Monday-UK, Tuesday-Sweden i get to see more now than when i was chugging off from Coventry over to Wolverhampton, Peterborough , etc. Best Wishes, mate. Alan

[manchesterpaul]

...Anyway, the system has to be changed cause: more money for riders require more expensive tickets. And expensive tickets is the MAIN reason of the poor attendances pasted above.

 

Interesting to note that football's Bundesliga is one of the most watched - actually, possibly THE most watched - league in Europe. It has state of the art stadiums and very cheap tickets. How about a season ticket for Bayern Munich a bargain at a mere £109 !

[2ndBender]

I believe that you are in Australia, my friend, and i am in the USA, so we should send him a Fosters and a Budweiser! Seriously, he writes VERY well. Makes me ashamed that i don't understand a word when watching the (magnificent) entertainment from Poland each Sunday on the net.I have bought a Polish dictionary, but it's going to take a long time. Now if the cracker who does the studio on the Polish GP coverage would like to make herself available....... What a godsend it is, having it available on the net.I go down on my knees in thanks to the streamers! With the GPs, Sunday-Poland, Monday-UK, Tuesday-Sweden i get to see more now than when i was chugging off from Coventry over to Wolverhampton, Peterborough , etc. Best Wishes, mate. Alan

 

You don't seriously call either of those drinks beer, do you? But seriously, yes, you're right, Mateusz has always provided us with a knowledgable and in-depth assessment of Polish Speedway and his comments have always proved invaluable to those of us who get over there from time to time, or simply just take an interest! Keep it coming, Mateusz, we rely on you!

[iris123]

Interesting to note that football's Bundesliga is one of the most watched - actually, possibly THE most watched - league in Europe. It has state of the art stadiums and very cheap tickets. How about a season ticket for Bayern Munich a bargain at a mere £109 !

Couple of points.I would say you are probably guilty of looking at some good attendance figures as if they are in isolation.As it has been pointed out they might be good compared to Britain,but are poor compared to previous years.We can always pick things out such as the price of bread in one country and compare it to the price of bread in england and say "look and weep"

Also you take the price of a standing ticket at Bayern and give a false impression.The standing tickets are cheap,but what about the other tickets,because that is what makes up the majority of the crowd.

 

Kategorie 1: 650 €

Kategorie 2: 550 €

Kategorie 3: 450 €

Kategorie 4: 300 €

Kategorie 5 (Stehplatz): 120 €

 

Doesn't quite look so good now does it

 

And chances of anyone getting one of those 120€ tickets are practically nil.Bayern have 38,000 season tickets set aside and 10,000 people applying for any ticket that isn't renewed.Then i think i am correct to say if you want to watch Bayern in a European game you are not allowed to stand,so have to buy a seat ticket.......plus from last weeks comparison of Bundesliga clubs watching a game at Bayern is one of if not the most expensive stadiums if you include parking(which is the most expensive at €10 and a beer....)

[manchesterpaul]

Dear oh dear Iris what on earth have i ever done to you? lol lol. When i first joined this forum i eagerly sought out every post of yours as, like Mateusz, your posts were always very informative to someone like me who loves to see speedway prosper across the globe. Also, i have had a long term interest in German speedway, probably because one of my girlfriends was German lol.

 

However, i've noticed that a lot of your posts nowadays can be a little aggressive. Instead of presenting an opposing view or simply correcting something the tone is often not very nice at all. Above all, the most hilarious thing is (and i chuckled away) when i saw you were the latest contributor to this thread, i was certain it would be me that you'd be quoting and it would be negative. I'm not talking about just having a different point of view either you often now use derogatory phrases. You've had some very targetted replies to my posts recently. I remember mentioning it a little while ago because it was so transparent. Anyway, rather than trigger off topic posts, if you have a problem just message me using the board facilities.

 

Soooooo on to your reply, at least it isn't as blatantly having a pop at me for the sake of it as your recent previous input.

 

Couple of points.I would say you are probably guilty of looking at some good attendance figures as if they are in isolation.As it has been pointed out they might be good compared to Britain,but are poor compared to previous years.We can always pick things out such as the price of bread in one country and compare it to the price of bread in england and say "look and weep"

 

What i said stands 100% the attendance figures are way higher than in the UK, to which 'read and weep' applies correctly. It was said in a jocular fashion but it does apply.

 

Also you take the price of a standing ticket at Bayern and give a false impression.The standing tickets are cheap,but what about the other tickets,because that is what makes up the majority of the crowd.

 

I made a firm point of selecting the terrace tickets as i think you will find there are very few luxury suites at speedway tracks and at some of them, to all intents and purposes, you are standing in the middle of a field There is often very little shielding or cover from the elements.

 

And chances of anyone getting one of those 120€ tickets are practically nil.Bayern have 38,000 season tickets set aside and 10,000 people applying for any ticket that isn't renewed.Then i think i am correct to say if you want to watch Bayern in a European game you are not allowed to stand,so have to buy a seat ticket.......plus from last weeks comparison of Bundesliga clubs watching a game at Bayern is one of if not the most expensive stadiums if you include parking(which is the most expensive at €10 and a beer....)

 

The availability of being able to purchase a ticket has ABSOLUTELY NIL effect on what was said. Clearly every match has however many thousands of people paying the price i said and watching the game. As for the Champions league, like the luxury areas of a football ground, we don't have that in speedway. We just have League matches for clubs.

Edited August 21, 2010 by manchesterpaul

[Fingersfin]

Mateusz, we all owe you a vote of thanks for your very lucid explanation of what lies in store. You make absolute sense. Thank you. Alan.

 

Yes you are right Alan, that last update from Mateusz was a cracker, thank you.

[iris123]

 

 

 

I made a firm point of selecting the terrace tickets as i think you will find there are very few luxury suites at speedway tracks and at some of them, to all intents and purposes, you are standing in the middle of a field There is often very little shielding or cover from the elements.

 

 

Without being condecending or aggresive i am arranging a date with a lovely woman so don't have time to go into too much detail.Forgive me,but i am sure you will understand....priorities and things

But you give the impression that Bayern have a big attendance because you can buy season tickets for 120€.Well as i have pointed out that only accounts for a small number of the crowd.You can't say that.If all the 68,000 people could buy tickets at that price the club would probably be in the Regionala liga or something.So you can't say look at how cheap it is for a succesful club......If speedway clubs set tickets at a very low price they have no other big source of income anyway like Bayern do with sponsorship and shirt sales.....and even when Bayern have all these other alternative income sources they don't sell all their tickets at that low price

[manchesterpaul]

Without being condecending or aggresive i am arranging a date with a lovely woman so don't have time to go into too much detail.Forgive me,but i am sure you will understand....priorities and things

But you give the impression that Bayern have a big attendance because you can buy season tickets for 120€.Well as i have pointed out that only accounts for a small number of the crowd.You can't say that.If all the 68,000 people could buy tickets at that price the club would probably be in the Regionala liga or something.So you can't say look at how cheap it is for a succesful club......If speedway clubs set tickets at a very low price they have no other big source of income anyway like Bayern do with sponsorship and shirt sales.....and even when Bayern have all these other alternative income sources they don't sell all their tickets at that low price

 

Whoaaaaa! my 'lovely woman' is missing tonight.....noooooo! is she meeting you?

 

The Bundesliga thing was more an observation that in view of the popularity of their team, they could get away with charging more for tickets. Also, that those terrace tickets are good value for money when compared to the surroundings of most speedway 'stadia'. No biggie really just a passing point.

 

Anyways, have a good night out.

[Mateusz]

Yes you are right Alan, that last update from Mateusz was a cracker, thank you.

No problem guys, glad I could make some issues more clear.

[iris123]

Whoaaaaa! my 'lovely woman' is missing tonight.....noooooo! is she meeting you?

 

The Bundesliga thing was more an observation that in view of the popularity of their team, they could get away with charging more for tickets. Also, that those terrace tickets are good value for money when compared to the surroundings of most speedway 'stadia'. No biggie really just a passing point.

 

Anyways, have a good night out.

Yes fine.Actually one of the best deals from one of the most fan orientated clubs in the world maybe.....local club St.Pauli offered season tickets for life for between 1 and 2,000€ i think it was.Back in 2003 they were close to going out of business and needed money fast.A lot of promotion selling t-shirts and stuff.But these season tickets are fantastic value for someone under 60 years old .They also go against the norm in Germany of not setting different categories for different teams.Tickets for Bayern are the same as a ticket for Freiburg."Our fans come to see St.Pauli,not Dortmund....." was the reason.Good start to the campaign yesterday.The future is Brown/White