Sgp Challenge Final

[BigFatDave]

I'd love to hear a get together of our last decent generation (Loram, Screen, Louis, Tatum) to see what they have to say about it all and what they think the differences are between now and then

Judging from Kelvin's performance on SKY last monday ("Did you know there's 38 Aussies, that's right, 38, riding in GB?" "38!") I've got a pretty good idea where the blame will fall.

 

No Havelock? No Stonehewer?

[HenryW]

it almost makes it look like the decline has only taken place during the last decade!...... I just had to check 99 as the alzheimers is kicking in these days..... Screen and Louis were hot property in those days ...along with Andy Smith honing his limpet impression .. numbers of swedish riders had become out of control though which probably had more to do with it

In all honesty, GB probably hasn't been a genuine force since about the late 70's or very early 80's, but it has got much, much worse in the last 10 years.

Let's not forget that in the mid 80's we were pretty hopeless as well...84 and 85 there was only one Brit in the World Final. It got a bit better for a few years after that, but in all honesty the guys involved were not genuine contenders. Tatum and Wigg flirted with the best, but were never quite good enough. The only other one in that period that seriously got into the mix was Cross. The others, despite making World Finals were not in the top bracket...As evidence of that I offer up Thorp, Knight and Evitts to name but three...

 

Having said that, we always had someone who could mix it with the best even if they couldn't deliver consistently over a season. The only year since the late 70's/early 80's that you could genuinely say that we had a consistent winner was 1992, and Havvy just shone for 1 year and then fizzled out.

 

Since the early 2000's we haven't even had a contender.

 

Happily Henry, the semi finalists from one GP automatically start in the next GP, the remaining 7 (excluding the local wildcard) have to pre-qualify along with 7 others and 2 local nominations. Top 5 from pre-qualifying start in the GP along with 2 BSI picks, and 1 local wild card.

 

Pre-qualifying to be staged on the Friday, on a secondary track, the 7 others paying an entry fee to compete, the entry fee to be no more than 50% of the prize money for 16th place in the GP.

I actually think that I have suggested on here in the past that I would like to see something similar. The current 15 rider field with 1 wildcard is just not big enough.

The short period where they used 24 man fields in the GPs was much more interesting as you got to see some different names making an impression. There are probably about 5 or 6 riders are that are truly, consistently, better than the rest. Then there is a group of maybe something like 15 or 20+ that on their day/track can match the best, but can also just as likely be hopeless. Limiting the field to 15 isn't the best.

 

However, I can certainly see issues with the format that you suggest. Just to mention 2 issues...

How do you decide who gets to race on the Friday? I can imagine about 20+ Poles wanting to be involved in that match for a Polish GP...

Is it sensible to run the pre-qualifier on a different track? For example, before Leszno you hold a round at Zielona Gora and get someone like Walasek or PePe coasting through, who offer very little on the actual GP track but are a specialist on ZG track!

 

 

Judging from Kelvin's performance on SKY last monday ("Did you know there's 38 Aussies, that's right, 38, riding in GB?" "38!") I've got a pretty good idea where the blame will fall.

Not 100% sure of your point here, so I am just taking a guess that you thought he was criticising this situation...I don't think he actually said that, and he may very well not have meant that...He may just have been expressing some surprise at how well the Aussies were training up their kids to get into the league.

 

The recent success of Australia, Poland and Russia at bringing through young riders is something that British Speedway should really be looking at. Especially in the cases of Australia and Russia where the domestic scene for pros isn't exactly great, but they are finding and training the talent...

[Peter S.]

The sooner we accept that Britain is no longer an elite speedway nation the better. The reason is quite valid. There are too many other high profile sports in this country to compete against. Poland claims Speedway to be their no.1 sport. I suspect, in reality, it is on par, or just second to football. In all probability, it is the same situation in Denmark. Whatever, they are high profile sports in their respective countries. They don't have to compete against other major events. In other words, I don't see them involved in world class cricket, rugby, tennis, golf, or staging top league PL football or being the mainstay of formula one etc. Without doing any detailed research, I doubt that it ranks within the top 30 sports in the UK and is, to all intents and purposes and, despite the efforts of SKY SPORTS, a forgotten sport. I cannot help but notice that most young British riders entering the sport are only there through junior grasstrack, because their dads used to ride, or both. Because Speedway is marketed poorly, why would anyone think of becoming a rider if they do not know of its existence! (This does not excuse, of course, the continuous influx of Australians who succeed for no other reason than being Australian and who take to sport like ducks to water!).

In Denmark speedway isn´t a top sport, maybe not even in top 10. We have no national speedway televised, not even the danish final this year. SGP/SWC are shown on the minor channel DK4, their best event this year was the SWC final with around 300.000 viewers. Our superleagu meeting has an attendance averaging around 1200 attenders. Look at the youth speedway systems instead.

Regards

Peter

[hagonshocker]

Hopeful scenario of Freddie moving into top 8 to allow Kolodziej in...but how desperate will he be now?...Janusz deserves to be in...but NO Brits deserve a wildcard especially 2..that would be taking the rise.

Disagree with Shovlar (now theres a thing) about Laguta the gp's need fresh blood each season and Artem is definatly a talent in the same mould as Emil and Holder

[lucifer sam]

In the early days of the Grand Prix you could hardly move for British riders - in the 1996 series, there were SIX British riders amongst the 17 competitors.

 

And when seeded riders were first brought at the end of the 2001 season ready for the 2002 season, there was no need to seed in any British riders. But three, yes three, Poles were amongst the six seeds. How times have changed.

 

All the best

Rob

[SCOTLAND1314]

In the early days of the Grand Prix you could hardly move for British riders - in the 1996 series, there were SIX British riders amongst the 17 competitors.

How times have changed.

 

All the best

Rob

 

And they largely performed very very poorly.... the more things change the more they stay the same....

[salty]

At the risk of stating the bleeding obvious a lot depends on what happens in the last 4 rounds. Most obviously to determine who finishes in the top 8.

One nomination will go to Emil and it seems that any 3 from Andersen, Jonsson, Hancock, Pedersen and Harris will need a pick as well.

Unless Tai ups his game significantly in the last 4 GP's I can't see how he could be justified getting a pick ahead of any of the above riders. Other imponderables are possible retirements freeing up spots. Is it possible Kolodziej will have a wild card spot at Bydgoszcz to show us again what he can do?

 

Past history has shown that BSI/IMG want to have 2 Brits in the series, but really such a standpoint is becoming difficult to maintain as unfortunately the Brits aren't up to it.

I can see a scenario where Tai is given a second season "to grow" into the series, but to be honest I think such a move would make a total mockery of the event.

[BARNES]

Hello chaps, any chance of telling me who actually went through?

 

i just went through from page 12 and am still none the wiser.

[screm]

Never thought Id see the day that Simon Stead was just 5 rides away from the GPs.

Gollob,Pedersen,Crump can all rest easy this morning known that Stead didnt quite make it.

[beesknees]

Hello chaps, any chance of telling me who actually went through?

 

i just went through from page 12 and am still none the wiser.

 

Artem Laguta, Lindback and Lindgren, with Kolodziej and Zetterstrom defeated in a run-off for 3rd place by Lindgren.

 

Cheers

BK

[SuddenSam15]

1. Artem Laguta (Rus) - 3, 0, 3, 3, 3 = 12+3

2. Antonio Lindback (Swe) - 1, 3, 3, 3, 2 = 12+2

3. Fredrik Lindgren (Swe) - 3, 3, 2, 1, 2 = 11+3

----------------------------------------------

4. Janusz Kolodziej (Pol) - 3, 3, 3, 2, 0 = 11+2

5. Magnus Zetterstrom (Swe) - 2, 3, 0, 3, 3 = 11+1

6. Thomas H. Jonasson (Swe) - 2, 2, 1, 1, 3 = 9

7. Chris Harris (GB) - 0, 1, 2, 2, 3 = 8

8. Niels-Kristian Iversen (Den) - 3, 2, 1, 1, 0 = 7

9. Andrey Karpov (Ukr) - 2, 1, 2, 1, 1 = 7

10. Grigorij Laguta (Rus) - 2, 0, 2, 0, 2 = 6

11. Simon Stead (GB) - 1, 1, 1, 2, 1 = 6

12. Leon Madsen (Den) - 0, 0, 0, 3, 2 = 5

13. Roman Povazhny (Rus) - 0, 2, 3, X, 0 = 5

14. Grzegorz Walasek (Pol) - 1, 2, 0, 0, 1 = 4

15. Sebastian Ulamek (Pol) - 1, 0, 1, 2, 0 = 4

16. Tomasz Gapinski (Pol) - 0, 2, 0, 0, 1 = 3

 

 

From page 11

[mothorsen]

Hmmm. How can THJ and Walasek both get two points in heat 7? I remember it was a close race, but THJ was first over the line, wich sends Walasek down to 3 poins all together.

[racers and royals]

Hmmm. How can THJ and Walasek both get two points in heat 7? I remember it was a close race, but THJ was first over the line, wich sends Walasek down to 3 poins all together.

He was 3rd in heat 7 and scored 3 overall

[Robbie B]

From the Speedway GP website

 

VOJENS SCORES:

Artem Laguta (3-0-3-3-3) 12+3

Antonio Lindback (1-3-3-3-2) 12+2

Freddie Lindgren (3-3-2-1-2) 11+3

 

Janusz Kolodziej (3-3-3-2-0) 11+2

Magnus Zetterstrom (2-3-0-3-3) 11+1

Thomas H Jonasson (2-2-1-1-3) 9

Chris Harris (0-1-2-2-3) 8

Niels Kristian Iversen (3-2-1-1-0) 7

Andrey Karpov (2-1-2-1-1) 7

Grigory Laguta (2-R-2-0-2) 6

Simon Stead (1-1-1-2-1) 6

Leon Madsen (0-0-0-3-2) 5

Roman Povazhny (R-2-3-T-0) 5

Sebastian Ulamek (1-0-1-2-0) 4

Tomasz Gapinski (0-2-0-0-1) 3

Grzegorz Walasek (1-1-0-0-1) 3

Lukas Dryml ® 0.

[spook]

Judging from Kelvin's performance on SKY last monday ("Did you know there's 38 Aussies, that's right, 38, riding in GB?" "38!") I've got a pretty good idea where the blame will fall.

 

No Havelock? No Stonehewer?

 

HenryW quote

 

Not 100% sure of your point here, so I am just taking a guess that you thought he was criticising this situation...I don't think he actually said that, and he may very well not have meant that...He may just have been expressing some surprise at how well the Aussies were training up their kids to get into the league.

 

quite right Havvy should be there as someone who won something... and Stoney as someone who did it against the odds zorro style

 

re: Kelvin .... I don't think BFD has completely the wrong end of the stick Henry... I think he understood perfectly that the number was being used as a tool...... and imo Kelvin is correct to focus on that as one important stat because it reflects where the promoters heads are as much as anything else.......I'm not sure Kelvin was particularly looking to apportion blame on the Aussies though.... they are after all just taking opportunity and making a good fist of it.....

 

being fair though it isnt the most important stat...... there are others more important such as numbers of brits in their own league system.... number of training tracks..... level of support and sponsorship...... number of governing rules brought in to encourage investment in grass roots..... in fact probably the biggest stat is number of promoters who give a damn considering they rule themselves............

 

HenryW quote

 

In all honesty, GB probably hasn't been a genuine force since about the late 70's or very early 80's, but it has got much, much worse in the last 10 years.

 

......................

 

Since the early 2000's we haven't even had a contender.

 

exactly ...... I think we all expected Cross, Cox, Knight and co just to continue the work of generations before them but it didnt happen with the exception of a great night for Havvy........... I don't remember an issue with the amount of Brits in the leagues at that point though ... just a lessening of Brits making it to the very top.......... I am sure that if things had remained the same in the league system then that cycle would have been broken eventually

 

one thought is that despite it being widely criticised the old British League once had a policy of 1 mandatory british novice per team...... maybe it was just coincidence but one of those novices was Mark Loram

Edited August 22, 2010 by spook

[lucifer sam]

And they largely performed very very poorly.... the more things change the more they stay the same....

 

I don't think 7th & 8th in the world (Loram & Louis) was that bad at all. And Havelock was looking a possibility for a top three place that year, before the back injury that halted his GP career and left him never looking like quite the same rider ever again.

 

If only we had riders like that these days. No of permanent Brits in the GP between 1995 & 2002:

 

1995 - five out of 17 - Loram, Louis, Cocker, Havelock, Smith

1996 - six out of 17 - Loram, Louis, Screen, Havelock, Smith, Cocker

1997 - four out of 17 - Loram, Louis, Smith and Wigg

1998 - three out of 21 - Louis, Loram and Smith

1999 - three out of 22 - Screen, Louis and Smith (Loram won GP as wildcard - and indeed finished fifth in world as wildcard)

2000 - five out of 22 - WORLD CHAMPION Mark Loram, Louis, Screen, Stonehewer and Smith (plus Martin Dugard won British GP as wildcard)

2001 - five out of 22 - Loram, Stonehewer, Smith, Louis and Screen (although Screen was injured for entire series)

2002 - four out of 22 - Loram, Nicholls, Stonehwer and Smith.

 

None of the above Brits were seeded. They all qualified. Around 2001 is probably where it all started to go wrong. Loram had a disappointing defence as World Champion and wasn't a contender again, whilst both Louis & Screen suffered from injury. And the next generation, headed by Scott Nicholls, then failed to deliver.

 

All the best

Rob

Edited August 22, 2010 by lucifer sam

[ladyluck]

One of the biggest problems is the assessed averages, which seem to get progressively lower, especially at Premier League level. Chris Holder came in on an assessed average of seven or eight, but what would it be now? Three or four? As I recall Berwick's three Czechs came in on assessed averages of nine and now they'd be assessed at seven, perhaps even lower, given that the Czech Republic league isn't one of the "major leagues". It's all about getting the best for a given team in a given season and to hell with the sport as a whole. All the promoters (and, to be entirely fair, a large proportion of their fan base) are looking to get the next hot prospect from wherever on a false assessed average. The Coventry fans are, for the most part, delighted that Przemyslaw Pawlicki isn't going to get a proper average this season. As far as they are concerned, Pawlicki, one of the brightest prospects in Poland, on a low assessed average for next season is all to the good.

On the flip side of this, Artem Laguta suddenly becomes the most unwanted rider in British speedway, since his elevation to the GPs means that his assessed average goes from four or five to eight, just from the result of a single meeting. This meeting. The same happened with Emil Sayfutdinov, whose assessed average went from four or five to eight as a result of a decision made by BSI. It had nothing to do with a single performance on a speedway track. Everyone was looking at Sayfutdinov before that decision; interest dried up after it (although it was clear Sayfutdinov wasn't that keen on trying his hand in the UK).

Young riders are being developed by other nations and then being picked up by British promoters hoping to get a good rider on a falsely low average.

[ladyluck]

1995 - five out of 17 - Loram, Louis, Cocker, Havelock, Smith

1996 - six out of 17 - Loram, Louis, Screen, Havelock, Smith, Cocker

1997 - four out of 17 - Loram, Louis, Smith and Wigg

1998 - three out of 21 - Louis, Loram and Smith

1999 - three out of 22 - Screen, Louis and Smith (Loram won GP as wildcard - and indeed finished fifth in world as wildcard)

2000 - five out of 22 - WORLD CHAMPION Mark Loram, Louis, Screen, Stonehewer and Smith (plus Martin Dugard won British GP as wildcard)

2001 - five out of 22 - Loram, Stonehewer, Smith, Louis and Screen (although Screen was injured for entire series)

2002 - four out of 22 - Loram, Nicholls, Stonehwer and Smith.

 

Didn't Marvyn Cox, Simon Wigg and Andy Smith have nationality changes?

Since Martin Dugard's night of glory in Coventry, Great Britain has only claimed one GP win. It's a rather dreadful statistic. All those charity nominations have simply held British riders back. Being "Britain's best" has been enough to get into the GPs, no matter how mediocre the aggregate of British talent has been. Other riders who have paid the price of their GP failure have come back stronger in the long run. Hampel this year, for example, and Andersen and Holta before him.

The other thing to note about the "early days" of the GPs was the number of Americans, with Ermolenko finishing the first season of GPs third and then, of course, Billy Hamill and Greg Hancock winning in 1996 and 1997. Once Ermolenko and then Hamill fell by the wayside Hancock has ploughed a lone furrow.

Edited August 22, 2010 by ladyluck

[lucifer sam]

One of the biggest problems is the assessed averages, which seem to get progressively lower, especially at Premier League level. Chris Holder came in on an assessed average of seven or eight, but what would it be now? Three or four? As I recall Berwick's three Czechs came in on assessed averages of nine and now they'd be assessed at seven, perhaps even lower, given that the Czech Republic league isn't one of the "major leagues". It's all about getting the best for a given team in a given season and to hell with the sport as a whole. All the promoters (and, to be entirely fair, a large proportion of their fan base) are looking to get the next hot prospect from wherever on a false assessed average. The Coventry fans are, for the most part, delighted that Przemyslaw Pawlicki isn't going to get a proper average this season. As far as they are concerned, Pawlicki, one of the brightest prospects in Poland, on a low assessed average for next season is all to the good.

On the flip side of this, Artem Laguta suddenly becomes the most unwanted rider in British speedway, since his elevation to the GPs means that his assessed average goes from four or five to eight, just from the result of a single meeting. This meeting. The same happened with Emil Sayfutdinov, whose assessed average went from four or five to eight as a result of a decision made by BSI. It had nothing to do with a single performance on a speedway track. Everyone was looking at Sayfutdinov before that decision; interest dried up after it (although it was clear Sayfutdinov wasn't that keen on trying his hand in the UK).

Young riders are being developed by other nations and then being picked up by British promoters hoping to get a good rider on a falsely low average.

 

WadyWuck, I notice how you're now calling him Laguta.

 

But you've made a good point. Assessed averages are far too low. As far as the PL is concerned, any non-Commonwealth should come in on a 9.00 point average, and in the EL, it should be 6.00.

 

And BFD, I welcome the Aussies riding in our leagues, because the Aussies show commitment to riding in the British Leagues. They treat us as their surrogate home country, and ride in British meetings with passion. The problem isn't the Aussies, it's the Poles, Swedes, Danes, Germans and so forth who treat us as a third-world speedway nation and have British Speedway as thier bottom priority. It's these sort of riders we could do with getting rid of.

 

All the best

Rob

[lucifer sam]

Didn't Marvyn Cox, Simon Wigg and Andy Smith have nationality changes?

Since Martin Dugard's night of glory in Coventry, Great Britain has only claimed one GP win. It's a rather dreadful statistic. All those charity nominations have simply held British riders back. Being "Britain's best" has been enough to get into the GPs, no matter how mediocre the aggregate of British talent has been. Other riders who have paid the price of their GP failure have come back stronger in the long run. Hampel this year, for example, and Andersen and Holta before him.

 

Cox, Wigg & Smith were all British, whatever license they had at the time. And all rode with the British flag on their breastplate in the Grand Prix series.

 

But yes, the record of British riders in the Grand Prix from 2001 onwards is pretty awful. And you've missed out the main rider who came back from GP failure to greater glory: Mark Loram. Not qualifying for the 1999 series really got him to buckle down, and resulted in him being the deserving 2000 World Champion, he was the most consistent rider in the world that year.

 

All the best

Rob