ladyluck Posted August 22, 2010 Author Report Share Posted August 22, 2010 WadyWuck, I notice how you're now calling him Laguta. The problem isn't the Aussies, it's the Poles, Swedes, Danes, Germans and so forth who treat us as a third-world speedway nation and have British Speedway as thier bottom priority. It's these sort of riders we could do with getting rid of. I have been convinced by the posts of ghostwalker and henryw that the Polish portals had it wrong and the correct transliteration is Laguta. As to your second point, I would remind you that Scott Nicholls on one occasion missed an Eastbourne fixture to ride for his Polish club and subsequently decided to exit the British domestic scene in favour of Poland, Sweden and the GPs. Lee Richardson has often mused on taking a similar stance (only to complain bitterly on the occasion it looked like British promoters were going to leave him on the sidelines), while Lewis Bridge seems to talk constantly of making a big impression in Poland. It is Poland, Sweden, Denmark and Germany that are developing the riders you are talking about, so why should they give priority to British speedway, especially when they see their comrades dumped at the first opportunity if they aren't working out? For every Kevin Wolbert, there is a Max Dilger dumped by the wayside. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Icicle Posted August 22, 2010 Report Share Posted August 22, 2010 Ah Names! I note the Brits tend to spell Names as they are written in their own language & then mispronounce them badly (listen -or not - to Tatum for example!), whilst Sweden is opposite, spelling names Swedish style to get the correct pronounciation (but altered spelling!).(Also the O with 2 dots is Swed that can be seen as "oe") Meanwhile you get some Finnish names no-one but Finns can pronounce!! Life's complicated!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lucifer sam Posted August 22, 2010 Report Share Posted August 22, 2010 It is Poland, Sweden, Denmark and Germany that are developing the riders you are talking about, so why should they give priority to British speedway, especially when they see their comrades dumped at the first opportunity if they aren't working out? For every Kevin Wolbert, there is a Max Dilger dumped by the wayside. Max Dilger was crap. Why do we want crap riders like that taking up valuable team places that could be given to British based riders? All the best Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghostwalker Posted August 22, 2010 Report Share Posted August 22, 2010 ccording to swedish commentator Johan Ejeborg, the poles filed a protest again Artem Laguta's engine. The engine was dismantled but nothing wrong was found. http://gpbloggen.wordpress.com/2010/08/21/polsk-protest-smolk-i-rysk-gladjebagare/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidba Posted August 22, 2010 Report Share Posted August 22, 2010 (edited) Pleased for Artem, good to have another Russkie, though only seen him once in the flesh so not sure if he will be out of his depth or not, would have preferred his older bro, just because he's mad! Lindback too is probably a good addition, a complete enigma, but excellant on his day and always exciting to watch.I hope AJ and Zorro miss the top 8 and Lindgren now makes the top 8 thus allowing the classy Zolodziej to join them, though i still hope in vain that Harris will make the top 8 too and avoid the embarrasing British picks situation! If Karpov had qualified though then there would be a rider in the SGP series whom i haven't seen before and they would have guarenteed my attendance at at least one 2011 GP!! Edited August 22, 2010 by davidba Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spook Posted August 22, 2010 Report Share Posted August 22, 2010 (edited) If only we had riders like that these days. No of permanent Brits in the GP between 1995 & 2002: 1995 - five out of 17 - Loram, Louis, Cocker, Havelock, Smith 1996 - six out of 17 - Loram, Louis, Screen, Havelock, Smith, Cocker 1997 - four out of 17 - Loram, Louis, Smith and Wigg 1998 - three out of 21 - Louis, Loram and Smith 1999 - three out of 22 - Screen, Louis and Smith (Loram won GP as wildcard - and indeed finished fifth in world as wildcard) 2000 - five out of 22 - WORLD CHAMPION Mark Loram, Louis, Screen, Stonehewer and Smith (plus Martin Dugard won British GP as wildcard) 2001 - five out of 22 - Loram, Stonehewer, Smith, Louis and Screen (although Screen was injured for entire series) 2002 - four out of 22 - Loram, Nicholls, Stonehwer and Smith. All the best Rob tbh this just shows the gradual decline for me though....... probably the last 4 generations: Nicholls, Harris, Richardson, Woffinden, Norris, Stead, Kennett, Loram, Havvy, Louis, Screen, Cox, Smith, Stonehewer Wigg, Tatum, Doncaster, Dugard, Cross, Thorp, Schofield Carter, Morton, Peter Collins, Les Collins, Lee, Jessup, Davis even though the standard has quite obviously plummeted from those early 80's days.... the difference is probably better illustrated with the riders that came further down in the pecking order......... the likes of the Grahame brothers, Steve Bastable, John Louis, Gordon Kennett could have formed a national B team that would give our current A team a run for their money.... let alone vs King, Bridger, Barker, Wright, Robson!..... and this is probably reflected through the Wigg and Loramski eras as well I'm sure these things go through cycles and we were due a quiet era or two anyway but the level of idiocy and negligence at promoter level has been quite beyond belief down the years........ ladydei is spot on to highlight the assessed averages as the promoters knew of the current issue 10/5/3 years ago ..... so if you are governing the british league system and you know the issue exists do you allow the acceleration of overseas signings at a rate never experienced before? I'm all for the influence of overseas riders and in particular I have admiration for the spirit of the Aussies..... but what kind of balanced governance do the bspa call this? What direction is this going in exactly? Edited August 22, 2010 by spook Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lucifer sam Posted August 22, 2010 Report Share Posted August 22, 2010 Top Brits in the 1977 British League averages: Michael Lee 10.64 (top of averages) Peter Collins 10.49 Gordon Kennett 10.41 Malcolm Simmons 10.22 Dave Jessup 10.20 John Davis 9.82 Martin Ashby 9.80 Terry Betts 9.70 John Louis 9.64 Doug Wyer 9.21 Chris Morton 9.05 That's 11 Englishmen with a BL average in excess of 9.00 - and all 11 in the top 20 of the averages. And there's a further 9 Brits (I need to say Brits rather than English, since Jimmy McMillan is one of them) with a BL average between 8.00 and 9.00. All the best Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spook Posted August 22, 2010 Report Share Posted August 22, 2010 ccording to swedish commentator Johan Ejeborg, the poles filed a protest again Artem Laguta's engine. The engine was dismantled but nothing wrong was found. http://gpbloggen.wordpress.com/2010/08/21/polsk-protest-smolk-i-rysk-gladjebagare/ interesting and controversial! I take it this was a protest by Walasek then as surely it couldnt be Kolodziej as he was on an even faster bike than Laguta! I do wonder about the testing procedure and how up to scratch it is...... technology can make or break a rider's career these days..... so if they are pushing the boundaries so hard to gain the extra speed........... what are the FIM/IMG doing to keep up with them? Are they still carrying out the same old checks? and are those good enough? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orion Posted August 22, 2010 Report Share Posted August 22, 2010 Max Dilger was crap. Why do we want crap riders like that taking up valuable team places that could be given to British based riders? All the best Rob Who are ever worst . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ladyluck Posted August 22, 2010 Author Report Share Posted August 22, 2010 (edited) probably the last 4 generations: Nicholls, Harris, Richardson, Woffinden, Norris, Stead, Kennett, Loram, Havvy, Louis, Screen, Cox, Smith, Stonehewer Wigg, Tatum, Doncaster, Dugard, Cross, Thorp, Schofield Carter, Morton, Peter Collins, Les Collins, Lee, Jessup, Davis I'd say that some riders above are in the wrong generations. Marvyn Cox and Andy Smith were certainly before Martin Dugard who started in the same season as Gary Havelock. I'd also put David Norris in the generation before, as he started racing before Chris Louis, although I think Louis might've been a "late starter" in the sport. Still, any post that mentions the wonderful Steve Schofield can't be all bad. Great little rider. A couple of riders missing from that generation would be Andy Galvin and Andrew Silver, who may not have achieved as much as they could've done, but were still a whole lot better than what we see now, Interestingly, Havelock and Dugard had their first season in 1985 and many pundits opined that the best British prospect from that season was the long-forgotten Ali Stevens. Edited August 22, 2010 by ladyluck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lucifer sam Posted August 22, 2010 Report Share Posted August 22, 2010 Interestingly, Havelock and Dugard had their first season in 1985 and many pundits opined that the best British prospect from that season was the long-forgotten Ali Stevens. Ali Stevens was one hell of a prospect, he was brilliant at the age of 16/17. Unfortunately he suffered an industrial accident early in 1986 when he fell through a roof (which cost him a place in the 1986 Oxford Cheetahs, with Nigel De'ath taking the place he was earmarked for), and then suffered a nasty injury at Oxford on Good Friday 1987. He showed flashes thereafter, but didn't realise his potential. It didn't help that he was mechaniclly hopeless, I remember him once suffering four engine failures in one night. The following night Oxford went to Swindon, Ali borrowed a bike from Martin Dugard and Ali put in a match-winning performance. But his own bikes were rubbish. All the best Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Authorised Posted August 22, 2010 Report Share Posted August 22, 2010 (edited) Top Brits in the 1977 British League averages: Michael Lee 10.64 (top of averages) Peter Collins 10.49 Gordon Kennett 10.41 Malcolm Simmons 10.22 Dave Jessup 10.20 John Davis 9.82 Martin Ashby 9.80 Terry Betts 9.70 John Louis 9.64 Doug Wyer 9.21 Chris Morton 9.05 That's 11 Englishmen with a BL average in excess of 9.00 - and all 11 in the top 20 of the averages. And there's a further 9 Brits (I need to say Brits rather than English, since Jimmy McMillan is one of them) with a BL average between 8.00 and 9.00. All the best Rob No offence but this is one of the worst use of statistics I have seen on this site. How many of the League were British in 1977? If 60% of the League were British, I would expect Brits to have these averages, on a sliding scale towards what we currently have.......we have 12 - TWELVE - British Full Time Elite League riders, and one of them includes the now injured Paul Hurry. If you would like a direct comparison, what was the % of 1977 riders that were non-British? Currently 80-85% dependent on double uppers. If it was 10% back then, look at the TWELVE British riders and discount 7/8ths of their defeats to non-British riders, and you will get averages like this. Last time I checked, British riders in the top 20 were Nicholls 4th, Richardson 8th, Stead 12th, Harris 14th as of a couple of years ago. I would say that is proportionate with the decline of the 'use' of British riders in the EL as a whole. Fill the EL with Brits in the same proportion to 1977 and we will have a similar outcome, if not, as useful comparison. Although I do not feel that these averages are achieveable nowadays, see below. Peterborough - 0 Poole - 0 Eastbourne - 0 Swindon - 1 Wolves - 1 plus 1 D/U Belle Vue - 1 plus 2 D/U Ipswich - 2 Lakeside - 3 Coventry - 4 plus 1 D/U NATIONALITY aside, if you are eleven riders were over 9, it suggests to me two other things, correct me if wrong: - - there were more teams in 1977 to achieve such a high number of riders above 9pts - - top riders met each other in heats less often - - riders took fewer races Chris Holder was 6th in the averages on 9.03 on Aug 7th......if your British comparison is to hold up, it would say he is not as good as Morton. The point scoring remains the same but the heat formats have altered so top riders have to meet each other 3 times potentially in 5 rides. Nicholls vs. Lindgren can happen in 1, 13, and 15 likewise Holder vs. Adams. I would like to know how so many Australians are in the Leagues, all 3 in some cases, on low averages, when EU Citizens are assessed on higher averages. EU Law may be interested if anyone is denied a right to work because of averages. But how are so many Australians here, and how do some become assets of clubs without riding for them? What is to top someone with deep pockets signing up all the talent for future years, to gain loan fees, transfer fees and cherry pick the best? Also, the generation thing....Scott Nicholls has been a number 1 wherever he has been by the end of the season for 10 years, I would possibly put him in the Loram/Louis generation for this? However generations overlap, but I wouldn't class him in the Kennett generation of being talked up, and going through the leagues. Nicholls was in the EL in 1995, when Ed was 9. Edited August 22, 2010 by Authorised Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coventry_Bee Posted August 22, 2010 Report Share Posted August 22, 2010 No offence but this is one of the worst use of statistics I have seen on this site. How many of the League were British in 1977? If 60% of the League were British, I would expect Brits to have these averages, on a sliding scale towards what we currently have.......we have 12 - TWELVE - British Full Time Elite League riders, and one of them includes the now injured Paul Hurry. If you would like a direct comparison, what was the % of 1977 riders that were non-British? Currently 80-85% dependent on double uppers. If it was 10% back then, look at the TWELVE British riders and discount 7/8ths of their defeats to non-British riders, and you will get averages like this. Last time I checked, British riders in the top 20 were Nicholls 4th, Richardson 8th, Stead 12th, Harris 14th as of a couple of years ago. I would say that is proportionate with the decline of the 'use' of British riders in the EL as a whole. Fill the EL with Brits in the same proportion to 1977 and we will have a similar outcome, if not, as useful comparison. Although I do not feel that these averages are achieveable nowadays, see below. Peterborough - 0 Poole - 0 Eastbourne - 0 Swindon - 1 Wolves - 1 plus 1 D/U Belle Vue - 1 plus 2 D/U Ipswich - 2 Lakeside - 3 Coventry - 4 plus 1 D/U NATIONALITY aside, if you are eleven riders were over 9, it suggests to me two other things, correct me if wrong: - - there were more teams in 1977 to achieve such a high number of riders above 9pts - - top riders met each other in heats less often - - riders took fewer races Chris Holder was 6th in the averages on 9.03 on Aug 7th......if your British comparison is to hold up, it would say he is not as good as Morton. The point scoring remains the same but the heat formats have altered so top riders have to meet each other 3 times potentially in 5 rides. Nicholls vs. Lindgren can happen in 1, 13, and 15 likewise Holder vs. Adams. I would like to know how so many Australians are in the Leagues, all 3 in some cases, on low averages, when EU Citizens are assessed on higher averages. EU Law may be interested if anyone is denied a right to work because of averages. But how are so many Australians here, and how do some become assets of clubs without riding for them? What is to top someone with deep pockets signing up all the talent for future years, to gain loan fees, transfer fees and cherry pick the best? Also, the generation thing....Scott Nicholls has been a number 1 wherever he has been by the end of the season for 10 years, I would possibly put him in the Loram/Louis generation for this? However generations overlap, but I wouldn't class him in the Kennett generation of being talked up, and going through the leagues. Nicholls was in the EL in 1995, when Ed was 9. Very good post Authorised, My dad is always on about how averages these days can't be compared to years gone by. After heat 1 the top guys never met again but like you said that heats 1,13,15 are where the heat leaders meet each other and so maximums and paid maximums are so sparse these days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ladyluck Posted August 22, 2010 Author Report Share Posted August 22, 2010 The 1977 averages would include bonus points, while currently the GSAs do not. In the old thirteen heat format the two respective No 1s were only programmed to meet once in a meeting. That was Ht 1, although, of course, they could subsequently meet if one or the other took a Tactical Substitute ride in a particular heat. However, more often than not, a team manage would hold his top rider's Tactical Substitute outing until Ht 8. There was no "nominated riders" heat. The biggest change between then and now is, of course, the mammoth changes wrought by the European Union and the fall of the Berlin Wall. Ole Olsen would've been the dominant Dane, with the Gundersen-Nielsen era on the verge of dawning. Scott Autrey would be there for the States, but the Penhall era would be just about to start. The Australians weren't even that good, with only Phil Crump really a heavy hitter. This was still the Mauger era. There'd have been a few Poles kicking about, but they could hardly compete with their Western counterparts due to the heavy and dulling hand of the Communist dictatorship. It was a different world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lucifer sam Posted August 22, 2010 Report Share Posted August 22, 2010 No offence but this is one of the worst use of statistics I have seen on this site. How many of the League were British in 1977? If 60% of the League were British, I would expect Brits to have these averages, on a sliding scale towards what we currently have.......we have 12 - TWELVE - British Full Time Elite League riders, and one of them includes the now injured Paul Hurry. If you would like a direct comparison, what was the % of 1977 riders that were non-British? Currently 80-85% dependent on double uppers. If it was 10% back then, look at the TWELVE British riders and discount 7/8ths of their defeats to non-British riders, and you will get averages like this. Last time I checked, British riders in the top 20 were Nicholls 4th, Richardson 8th, Stead 12th, Harris 14th as of a couple of years ago. I would say that is proportionate with the decline of the 'use' of British riders in the EL as a whole. Fill the EL with Brits in the same proportion to 1977 and we will have a similar outcome, if not, as useful comparison. Although I do not feel that these averages are achieveable nowadays, see below. Peterborough - 0 Poole - 0 Eastbourne - 0 Swindon - 1 Wolves - 1 plus 1 D/U Belle Vue - 1 plus 2 D/U Ipswich - 2 Lakeside - 3 Coventry - 4 plus 1 D/U NATIONALITY aside, if you are eleven riders were over 9, it suggests to me two other things, correct me if wrong: - - there were more teams in 1977 to achieve such a high number of riders above 9pts - - top riders met each other in heats less often - - riders took fewer races Chris Holder was 6th in the averages on 9.03 on Aug 7th......if your British comparison is to hold up, it would say he is not as good as Morton. The point scoring remains the same but the heat formats have altered so top riders have to meet each other 3 times potentially in 5 rides. Nicholls vs. Lindgren can happen in 1, 13, and 15 likewise Holder vs. Adams. I would like to know how so many Australians are in the Leagues, all 3 in some cases, on low averages, when EU Citizens are assessed on higher averages. EU Law may be interested if anyone is denied a right to work because of averages. But how are so many Australians here, and how do some become assets of clubs without riding for them? What is to top someone with deep pockets signing up all the talent for future years, to gain loan fees, transfer fees and cherry pick the best? Also, the generation thing....Scott Nicholls has been a number 1 wherever he has been by the end of the season for 10 years, I would possibly put him in the Loram/Louis generation for this? However generations overlap, but I wouldn't class him in the Kennett generation of being talked up, and going through the leagues. Nicholls was in the EL in 1995, when Ed was 9. Authorised, it wasn't supposed to be a direct comparison, which is why I didn't provide 2010 averages, because they aren't that comparable. It was more to show how far we've fallen down the totem pole since 1977. You have to remember in 1977, that the British League WAS the best league in the world. The vast majority of top riders rode in this country, so if they were 11 Englishmen in the top 20 of the BL averages it also means that there were 11 Englishmen amonsgt the best 30 or so riders in the entire world. These days, it's the Swedish League which is the strongest, closely followed by Poland, with the British Elite League a poor third. Look at the top 30 riders in the Swedish League, and we might have one (Scott Nicholls). All the best Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HenryW Posted August 22, 2010 Report Share Posted August 22, 2010 These days, it's the Swedish League which is the strongest, closely followed by Poland, with the British Elite League a poor third. Look at the top 30 riders in the Swedish League, and we might have one (Scott Nicholls). Scott has been dreadful in Sweden this year, and has actually dropped to reserve for his team! Lee Richardson is the top Brit in Sweden. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lucifer sam Posted August 22, 2010 Report Share Posted August 22, 2010 Scott has been dreadful in Sweden this year, and has actually dropped to reserve for his team! Lee Richardson is the top Brit in Sweden. Henry, do you have the positions for our riders in the Swedish Elite League averages? All the best Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ladyluck Posted August 22, 2010 Author Report Share Posted August 22, 2010 These days, it's the Swedish League which is the strongest, closely followed by Poland, with the British Elite League a poor third. Look at the top 30 riders in the Swedish League, and we might have one (Scott Nicholls). It says earlier in this very thread that Harris has a higher average in Sweden than Nicholls. I'd say the Polish league is stronger than the Swedish league, if for no other reason than the quantity of Polish riders knocking around in both leagues. They're bound to give their best efforts to the Polish league. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ladyluck Posted August 22, 2010 Author Report Share Posted August 22, 2010 Henry, do you have the positions for our riders in the Swedish Elite League averages? All the best Rob A set of Swedish averages: http://www.sportowefakty.pl/img/tmp/stat/statelitserien2010.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lucifer sam Posted August 22, 2010 Report Share Posted August 22, 2010 It says earlier in this very thread that Harris has a higher average in Sweden than Nicholls. I'd say the Polish league is stronger than the Swedish league, if for no other reason than the quantity of Polish riders knocking around in both leagues. They're bound to give their best efforts to the Polish league. But the Swedish Elite League has most of the good non-Poles as well, whereas a few of them are missing from the Polish scene. I don't think there's much in it, though. Sorry, haven't read every single post in this thread, didn't realise that the peformance of our riders in Sweden had already been brought up. All the best Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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