Kevin Meynell Posted November 23, 2003 Report Share Posted November 23, 2003 It would seem to discourage improving as you are surely better to stay at the top of for example grade 4 rather than have your average increase by .01 and take you into grade 3? That's the flaw with grading. Under the old system, you effectively had the same number of grades as there were riders, and it therefore had granularity at an individual level. Now you're effectively encouraging the manipulation of averages as riders at the top of each grade will be in huge demand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arnieg Posted November 23, 2003 Report Share Posted November 23, 2003 What's happened to the 2.5% discount for British riders? It will make no difference in most cases but it could make a huge difference if a rider goes from bottom of one grade to top of the one below because of the discount. And how are riders who doubled up last year being graded. riders like gjedde and shields could be in grade 3 based on their EL average, grade 5 if 50% of PL average is used or grade 4 if the two are combined. Anyone know? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Zebbo Mooty Posted November 23, 2003 Report Share Posted November 23, 2003 Unfortunately, the grading system is nothing like American Football who don't force teams to redistribute players. The grading system is nothing like American Football, but they do force teams to redistribute players. The current 'parity' in the NFL is almost entirely due to the salary cap, a system that couldn't work with the current band of lunatics running the speedway asylum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rabbit Posted November 23, 2003 Report Share Posted November 23, 2003 (edited) I think the penny has started to drop over the last day or so. It looks like anyone from your second heat leader down is going to be under an 8 point average. The band A riders must be laughing their heads off - lots of high scores and maximums for them since they'll not have as much competition in their rides. Expect quite a few more 10+ averaged riders by the end of the season. I'm all for freeing riders up for the new teams but this seems to be more far-reaching than that. And I don't think the majority of fans realise just how hard some teams and riders are going to be hit by this. Forget the new joker rule, this bothers me a lot more! Somehow the 'Elite' league isn't looking quite so elite anymore!! And if teams decide to put up prices with what I think we're going to be offered next year I've got a few early suggestions on what they can do with it! BTW, does anyone know what Ian Thomas is on about on the BSPA site today where he says 'Now there is more flexibility with the riding order it might just alter our way of thinking' - where has this come from? I don't remember seeing anything about riding orders - or is this another little surprise they've got up their sleeves..... Edited November 23, 2003 by rabbit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Posted November 23, 2003 Report Share Posted November 23, 2003 'Now there is more flexibility with the riding order it might just alter our way of thinking' I read somewhere that you have to have your top two heatleaders at 1 & 5,and the remaining heatleader and the two second strings can ride anywhere in the 2/3/4 jackets,adds abit of tactics I suppose,having a heatleader at number 4 might help away for instance,it would certainly benifit a team with a strong top 4. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lioness Posted November 23, 2003 Report Share Posted November 23, 2003 In effect all that is doing is changing the team make up from three heat leaders, two second string and two reserves to re-classify it as two heat leaders, three second string and two reserves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lioness Posted November 23, 2003 Report Share Posted November 23, 2003 Okay I am still going on about this grading thing. It makes a lot of assumptions but....... Assumptions Made:- Peters grades above are taken as accurate The limit is 19 points with the points being 6,5,4,3,2,1 Steve Turners final EL averages of all riders riding in the EL last year are used 10 team EL To build a team within the limit you can only have ONE rider from EITHER of the top two grades. There are 15 riders in the top 2 grades therefore we have 5 fewer riders in the EL with averages above 8.33 In band 3, you can again only have one rider. from last years list there are 12 in this band and therefore we loose another 2 riders Moving on to band 4, we have 16 riders and a loss of another 6 Band 5 takes us down to the 'poorer' EL riders-no disrespect intended. There are 23 riders from last year in this band. Now assuming the band 1 riders are all preferred over band 2 in the first part of this, eight teams can have 2 riders from this catagory with two only being able to choose one. We therefore need a maximum of 18 riders in this catagory therefore we still have to loose 5 riders in this grade. Finally band six. Bear in mind that a lot of riders falling in this catagory last year would only have ridden once or twice and may have been a desperate 'make up the numbers' job. There are 18 riders from last year in this category. We need an absolute minimum of 22 therefore at last we have a shortfall-of 4 All this only takes into account basic 1-7, not even starting to think of 'squad' riders. The definition of dilute in the dictionary is 'reduce in strength' If these assumptions are anywhere near accurate, then EL fans may like to take this into account. This has to be the biggest case of pulling the wool over the punters eyes they have come up with yet. Are we being fooled? What do you reckon.... And before any PL fans try putting a smug look on their face where do you think the shortfall is going to be made up from for the lower average riders? I doubt if the 5 out of work riders with averages low enough to drop down will compensate for loosing some of the PL heat leaders. Okay this is perhaps in simplistic terms. But often you have to look at things that way to get a handle on just what is being attempted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Posted November 23, 2003 Report Share Posted November 23, 2003 choosing 1 from each grade and 2 from grade six would give a grading total of 6+5+4+3+2+1+1 = 22 They're supposed to be setting a limit at 19. So your team is way too strong even thoough you've already included 2 x 3.00 grade riders! Whether it's 19 or not, you know exactly what I'm trying to say, Speedy-Star, ... there can be a big difference in the total averages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevH Posted November 23, 2003 Report Share Posted November 23, 2003 Some extremely well thought out and equally worrying statistics there Lioness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lanzilla Posted November 23, 2003 Report Share Posted November 23, 2003 Cracking bit of analysis there Lioness and as you rightly say 'Dilute' is the operative word. 10 from 15 from band A/B is tough on the big name riders who lose out on a team place next season. What concerns me most is what quality of teams will we have in the Elite League next season when we have the next highest averaged rider in the team being under an 8 point average? Looking at it from a business point of view i can see that the new rules will help clubs cut costs slightly and hopefully there should be a better balance throughout the League.Matches should be a bit closer which makes for better Sky coverage. I thought they had scrapped the BLC ,but i think it will live on in the Elite League next season as quite a few heats will be of a similar standard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevH Posted November 23, 2003 Report Share Posted November 23, 2003 10 from 15 from band A/B is tough on the big name riders who lose out on a team place next season. Maybe they could end up at PL tracks, thus making a move up in 2005 far easier? Just a thought Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCB Posted November 23, 2003 Report Share Posted November 23, 2003 You can only have 1 ridr form the top 2 groups, you can however have as many as you like form the rest. So you can have 6 rider worth 2 and one rider worth 6 if you like and keep an extra point. Or you can have one 5 point rider, 2 3 point riders and 4 2 point riders. The wya I see it, if you can only have one 5 or 6 poitn rider, you have so many points left and there are limited 3 pointers that nobody will want 1 point riders. There for making it a league with every team having na out and out star and then 6 very similar (grade 2 and 3) riders. So riders like Wato will not want to ride in the EL as he'll be a number 7 and will sturggle to score against these strength in depth teams. IMO theyhave made it harder for youngsters to move up into the EL. Well Done the BSPA!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philfromcov Posted November 24, 2003 Report Share Posted November 24, 2003 Ok, the realities the, present squad hamill 5 janirro 4 Richardson 5 Robson 3 jonsson 5 fisher 2 Bunyan 1 equals 25 lose 6 points (ok not saying this is going to happen!) best possible squad Jonsson 5 Fisher 2 Stead 3 Robson 3 Janirro 4 Bunyan 1 Risager 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philfromcov Posted November 24, 2003 Report Share Posted November 24, 2003 on another point, if you have three riders with a grade of 2 does this mean you could choose which rider takes the reserve berth? or will underneath all these grades, averages still take precendent? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ace_of_clubs Posted November 24, 2003 Report Share Posted November 24, 2003 lose 6 points (ok not saying this is going to happen!) best possible squad Jonsson 5 Fisher 2 Stead 3 Robson 3 Janirro 4 Bunyan 1 Risager 1 Wouldn't Risager be a 2 pointer? (4.50 ave seems to equate to grade E = 2 points) Still at least you got a good run at the 2003 title to build up your massively overstrong side. Here at Belle Vue our all conquering 2003 side leaves us with a too strong heat leader trio of Crump (6 points), Lyons (4) and Screen (4) which breaks the 13 point limit on heat leaders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ace_of_clubs Posted November 24, 2003 Report Share Posted November 24, 2003 on another point, if you have three riders with a grade of 2 does this mean you could choose which rider takes the reserve berth? or will underneath all these grades, averages still take precendent? We'll get back to you on that one once Terry Russell and Poole have built all their teams and decided which is most advantageous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philfromcov Posted November 24, 2003 Report Share Posted November 24, 2003 is there also a maximum of 13 points for heat leaders then? i havent heared that one? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ace_of_clubs Posted November 24, 2003 Report Share Posted November 24, 2003 is there also a maximum of 13 points for heat leaders then? i havent heared that one? Yep. According to Tim Stone at Newport's meeting yesterday. But don't worry, your mighty powerful trio of Andreas Jonsson, Billy Janniro and Simon Stead complies with the limit! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philfromcov Posted November 24, 2003 Report Share Posted November 24, 2003 next answer please... if you ar in the PL with an average of 6.99, you are rated grade 3 if you move up to the EL do you become grade 1.5? or grade 1? if the answer is the later you could get rusty harrison as a grade 1 rider Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ace_of_clubs Posted November 24, 2003 Report Share Posted November 24, 2003 next answer please... if you are in the PL with an average of 6.99, you are rated grade 3 stop there! There is no silly grading in the PL. So if you are 6.99 in PL, then you are 6.99. No silly grading and you build your team to 45 points.....what a wonderfully simple revolutionary idea!! So to come into the EL 6.99 divided by 2 = 3.50 Under the top secret leaked copy of the grading system that would make you a 1 point Grade F rider. 6.99 seems quite a good PL average to move up on. Not as good as the optimum 8.64, but infinitely better than the poor sod on 8.66 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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