Scunthorpe Saints V ...rye Cobras Sun 4th July

[Roger MARTIN]

Its never going to happen,in Countries like Denmark and Sweden the sport his higher up the league table than in Britain, in Britain its way down the league, its so low its not even in a league, so the NL is where the youngsters have to start, like it or not thats where they have to start, they have an u15 Championship, then they have to go into the NL, i think that if the NL was to be run with the young British riders in mind it would be a good league to learn in, but having half a dozen Australians coming over every year using it has a stepping stone to the PL it is not helping,the problem is there is no money in the sport to do what other countries are doing, and there is no one willing to put money into doing it, so its easy to come on and say do what other Countries are do knowing its never going to happen, anyone can come on and say that, but most know it will never happen, so dont suggest it,

Edited July 7, 2010 by Roger MARTIN

[ancient mariner]

Has not the problem been caused by the statements made by the BSPA at the inception of the league? The intention was to progress from the CL, align the new NL with PL and EL, generally apply many of the PL/EL rules and make the NL more competitive.

 

Well the BSPA seem to have achieved their aims alright. The rules are open to interpretation with no apparent clarification or logical guidance from those alleged to be in charge, so I think we can say that the alignment bit has been achieved.

 

As for the more competitive bit, the NL is definitely that. Promotions are now looking for every little 'edge' that can be extracted to the detriment of the whole ethos of the NL. Those that do not or cannot follow the herd are left in the wilderness. The nonsense of hugely over-qualified non British riders in the NL is merely a symptom and not the cause. The BSPA needs to decide what it actually wishes from the NL, create the necessary rules to achieve those aims, to apply the said rules properly and fairly and show that it actually cares about the sport at this level. I am not holding my breath.

 

Certainly I very much hope that Jayne's post was made in the heat of the moment and that Buxton continue to grace the NL with their presence for many years to come.

[Great Central]

Yes they are either with patriality or a youth mobility visa (tier 5). Does Tyson have either?????

Jayne,

Last year when the subject of Australians came up, it was stated that Australian riders could only ride in the NDL if they had a British passport like your young Aussies or if they had patriality, a word I hate, since it is so vague and really has no meaning within an English dictionary.

Now you are saying something about a "youth mobility visa".

For interest only, where are these rules written down - in the SCB Rulebook or does the NDL have a set of its own rules.

In Tyson's case, the youth mobility visa doesn't apply due to his age, and persons holding this visa must not be employed as professional sportsmen. Having read the rules one could argue if a speedway rider is employed or self employed etc but he is under 18 and cannot have a visa. The rules also state that a rider holding a FMN licence cannot ride in the NL. Don't Australian licences fall into this category.

Perhaps instead of writing on here quizzing you, a letter to the SCB is in order.

Martin Widman

[Jayne]

Jayne,

Last year when the subject of Australians came up, it was stated that Australian riders could only ride in the NDL if they had a British passport like your young Aussies or if they had patriality, a word I hate, since it is so vague and really has no meaning within an English dictionary.

Now you are saying something about a "youth mobility visa".

For interest only, where are these rules written down - in the SCB Rulebook or does the NDL have a set of its own rules.

In Tyson's case, the youth mobility visa doesn't apply due to his age, and persons holding this visa must not be employed as professional sportsmen. Having read the rules one could argue if a speedway rider is employed or self employed etc but he is under 18 and cannot have a visa. The rules also state that a rider holding a FMN licence cannot ride in the NL. Don't Australian licences fall into this category.

Perhaps instead of writing on here quizzing you, a letter to the SCB is in order.

Martin Widman

 

 

Martin

 

Here goes: Rules 17.3.2.2 refers to a Commonwealth rider with no previous UK riding experience , permitted under Border Agency Regulations, may ride on a 6.00 NL CMA.

17.4.7.Commonwealth riders as permitted (see 17.3.2.2) subject to a maximum of 2 per club are limited to ride for a maximum of 2 consecutive seasons which must be with that same club. They cannot ride for any EL/PL team under any circumstance, even as a guest.

 

I'm not an expert on immigration rules but as I understand it the youth mobility visa replaced the old working holiday visa. When the subject of allowing Commonwealth riders into the league came up (when it was the CL) we were told they could only ride if they had the youth mobility visa. You are quite right in stating that they cannot be a professional sportsperson on this visa and should not receive payment for such activities. I dont know what the answer is and how this applies to people under 18. I would presume if they dont qualify for the visa they shouldn't be able to ride but would guess that's down to the SCB and how the rule is interpreted.

 

It's a very thorny subject as it is a legal requirement to have the correct visa (if one is required) to work in this country. Without it you are risking penalties from the Borders Agency.

[Great Central]

Jayne,

Many thanks for the comprehensive reply. Obviously speed reading the rule book doesn't work because I missed that bit!!

Martin

[SimonB]

Its never going to happen,in Countries like Denmark and Sweden the sport his higher up the league table than in Britain, in Britain its way down the league, its so low its not even in a league, so the NL is where the youngsters have to start, like it or not thats where they have to start, they have an u15 Championship, then they have to go into the NL, i think that if the NL was to be run with the young British riders in mind it would be a good league to learn in, but having half a dozen Australians coming over every year using it has a stepping stone to the PL it is not helping,the problem is there is no money in the sport to do what other countries are doing, and there is no one willing to put money into doing it, so its easy to come on and say do what other Countries are do knowing its never going to happen, anyone can come on and say that, but most know it will never happen, so dont suggest it,

 

If we all went through life not saying things because "we know its never going to happen" nothing would ever change. It is absolutely true that I can not see the financing becoming available for speedway to operate in the way it does in Denmark but that doesnt mean that the approach of Denmark is wrong. Maybe by raising ideas someone could find a solution, stranger things have happened.

 

The national league should be about the financial sustainability of the teams and not specifically a development league in my opinion. Development of young riders needs to start earlier so that they are ready to enter the NL at an appropriate standard.

[scribbler]

Development of young riders needs to start earlier so that they are ready to enter the NL at an appropriate standard.

 

Like a mini track, amateur meetings, and second halves...

 

One rider from mini track to reserve at Pl in (?)10 months...

 

The groundwork can be put in place - when the venues are right - but the work does need to be put in. It's so much easier for the vast majority of promoters to use 'the finished product' than put the work in when they do have a venue that is accessible. I'm sure that most promoters don't even bother to look out for potential new riders, preferring to use experienced riders... or anyone that isn't British...

 

A bit of PR about 'new, exciting young British riders' wouldn't go amiss...

Edited July 8, 2010 by scribbler

[SimonB]

Like a mini track, amateur meetings, and second halves...

 

One rider from mini track to reserve at Pl in (?)10 months...

 

The groundwork can be put in place - when the venues are right - but the work does need to be put in. It's so much easier for the vast majority of promoters to use 'the finished product' than put the work in when they do have a venue that is accessible. I'm sure that most promoters don't even bother to look out for potential new riders, preferring to use experienced riders... or anyone that isn't British...

 

A bit of PR about 'new, exciting young British riders' wouldn't go amiss...

 

I am not sure that Promoters prefer to use anyone that isnt British but otherwise I agree with your post. Track time availability at an affordable rate is key, difficult at a track like Mildenhall for example which is rented and needs a significant income just to cover the rental fee let alone any other costs such as medical cover.

[Roger MARTIN]

I another big problem is where the track is, and can you use it seven days a week,i was talking to Nicky Glanz and the the local track near in Demark you can use seven days a week, and any time of the day, their are always people their, the track in Plymouth has big problems with this, only being able to use it on fridays 7.30 to 9.30, and some saturdays for training 1pm to 4pm, it seems nobody wants a speedway track near them, Exeter had big problems setting up a track after they lost the track they had, they had to give up in the end, and it was nothing to do with the lack of money, and it was in the middle of a horse racing track,seems its ok to race horses, but when it comes to speedway bikes its a big no no,in Plymouth next to home park the local football team they are building a life centre, a big sports complex where they are going to have every sport you can mention in it, a big netball centre will be based in the centre, and have been given a grant to run it, are their any grants available so speedway can run these type of centres, seems everyone can get them, why not speedway.

Edited July 8, 2010 by Roger MARTIN

[Halifaxtiger]

May as well call it the Aussie Development League and be done with it!

 

Complete rubbish. Less than one per team at the moment.

 

 

The current situation is not good, too many teams are paying PL money to riders and I feel that the league has lost its way from its original intention. Now it is all about money and I fear that several teams will not be lining up next year mine included as we cannot sustain the financial outlay especially in the current economic climate. Costs have increased drastically from the CL days as riders demands are higher and loan and transfer fees are taken into account. The days of a development league are behind us and it is not good for British speedway. The league standard is too high for development to be its aim as a whole and cannot be sustained by several clubs. Riders demands though impact on all three leagues as if you can get £25 - £30 in the NL what do you expect in the PL and EL? I don't blame the riders for this but everyone needs to see the bigger picture and until that happens things will only get worse.

 

It would be a huge shame if Buxton were to fold, Jayne, and I'd be surprised if anyone had a differing view.

 

No rider loaned to an NL club should be subject to a loan fee. After all, it is of considerable benefit for the assets of EL & PL clubs to be able gain significant riding experience at a level proportionate to a riders ability.

 

While I'd accept that riders demands have increased, paying over the odds isn't new - Wimbledon certainly did it and they closed in 2005.

 

I'd take issue with your comment regarding the standard of the league being too high for development, Jayne. Looking through the NL teams stated in Speedy Star dated 03/07/10, I'd say around 60% of those riders were at the development stage of their careers and/or had reasonable prospects of going into a higher league. Not quite enough for my liking, but certainly sufficient to disprove any allegation that the league is not used at least in part for that purpose.

 

I think we cant overlook the fact that the current make-up of the 'third tier', ie, with established riders who have experience at a higher level and youngsters who have come through training schools, DOES benefit those younger riders development - by giving them something to aim at to increase their ability, that they would not get by just racing against others from their own age group. You then see those riders who are ready and able to move up to a higher level.

 

It does strike me that as soon as a team has any sort of success at this level, people associated with those teams who are less successful look for some morality angle on why that success is undeserved - only to then be silence when their team's fortunes improve. You didnt see Scunthorpe fans complaining about anyone else's set-up when their team was sweeping all before it at CL level a couple of years back - yet now they are not so powerful, they are complaining about other teams.

 

I think any issues within the third tier are the tip of the ice-berg, for me a greater problem is the willingness of promoters at higher levels to overlook British riders in favour of (especially in the PL) low averaged foreign riders. This leaves a large number of Brits who have nowhere to ride, but the third tier, or be lost to the sport.

 

 

Very good points, Neil

 

I am certain that many of the young riders in NL sides are very thankful for the presence of the likes of Atkin, Stephens, Burrows etc.

 

The point about certain people from Scunthorpe's hypocrisy isn't lost on me. When they were putting out super strength teams (and paying over the odds to do it) I didn't hear them complaining then and can imagine the reaction if someone had.

 

Neil, If the 2nd string Clubs pulled out because they couldnt compete both on and off the track with the stand alones. Would there be enough Clubs left to make it attractive for the fans, and worthwhile for the Promotions ? For me each Club should be allowed one "old hand" and the rest should be u and coming youngsters, if there is enough to go around.

 

Agreed

 

 

The national league should be about the financial sustainability of the teams and not specifically a development league in my opinion. Development of young riders needs to start earlier so that they are ready to enter the NL at an appropriate standard.

 

In order to achieve the compromise (and to me, that is the only way forward)that you put in your earlier post, I'd say it has to be both. The league would not be a realistic prospect if either the stand alones or the double ups decided to go it alone, so they must have regard of each others needs & requirements. Stand alones need to be financially viable, double ups need young riders to develop into assets with one eye on costs themselves.There has to be a set of regulations that allows the development of young riders but maintains a standard that means that people are going to pay to come and watch.

 

On a separate thread, Vince put together a very good starting point for the building of teams involving the restriction of certain categories of rider and personally I think it is more about those restrictions than points limits. To my mind, the points limit should be set in around October time each year, taking into account the best estimates of riders that would be available in the forthcoming season. Talk of very low points limits would not only be financially disastrous, it would also be unachievable.

 

If it is accepted that each team can have one senior rider and a 34pt limit were imposed, Mildenhall could have Evans, Rayson & Jacobs and 4 3pt men next season. Aside from the fact of whether spectators would pay £10 to watch such riders, that would mean that the league (based upon existing numbers)would have to find 44 3pt riders not just next season, but for each season following. Not only that, but a 3pt man from the first season would then run the risk of being excluded for the second season if he upped that average. That's not just unworkable, its plain ridiculous.

[montie]

The point about certain people from Scunthorpe's hypocrisy isn't lost on me. When they were putting out super strength teams (and paying over the odds to do it) I didn't hear them complaining then and can imagine the reaction if someone had.

 

 

Didnt realise you were scunthorpe,s accountant as you must be please tell us all what they were payed then,clever sh;T

[scribbler]

 

The point about certain people from Scunthorpe's hypocrisy isn't lost on me. When they were putting out super strength teams (and paying over the odds to do it) I didn't hear them complaining then and can imagine the reaction if someone had.

 

 

This is getting boring zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

 

2006 & 2007

 

One older rider and six teenage riders, one of whom had patriality...

 

THe so-called super strength was gained by picking the right riders and developing them, and during the 2007 key riders were often missing because they were doubling up in the PL... the team was at full strength only about three or four times during the season. I don't know about paying over the odds - I think that only Buxton - and maybe Sittingbourne were paying the flat £5 a point and that other teams were paying more than Scunthorpe.

 

BTW 4 Australian riders ... and how many others have dual patriality...?

[June]

The point about certain people from Scunthorpe's hypocrisy isn't lost on me. When they were putting out super strength teams (and paying over the odds to do it) I didn't hear them complaining then and can imagine the reaction if someone had.

 

 

Didnt realise you were scunthorpe,s accountant as you must be please tell us all what they were payed then,clever sh;T

Oh I so agree with you montie........the above quote from Halifax tiger is ridiculous....how the hell can he know what our riders then were being paid........some folk claim to be so clever!.......This subject is becoming so repetative and boring.......As a supporter all I want to see is the speedy advance of our youngsters.......more so after attending the Cardiff GP yesterday. The only race which got us brits really excited was Tai's last race. That was awesome.........Cant everybody see that the standard of the brits is on the decline.........we must get our kids competative sooner rather than later or the brilliant event at ardiff will cease to interest many. certainly me. I'm fed up of saying I want to see the brits up there winning championships like they used to.......We have to find a way to run the N/L where both standalone and feeder clubs can work in harmony. Wake up to reality please......come on get behind the youngsters, whatever happened in the past is THEN we should all be pulling together for NOW.

[heathen79]

I haven't read all of this thread, so I apologise if I go over anything already said. On the subject of Tyson Nelson, Scunthorpe rode under protest because they didn't believe he was elligible. I believe they have now been proved correct, that Nelson should not be riding anywhere at all in the UK and getting paid for it. He is billed at Number 1 in the line-u for Dudley's Golden Hammer meeting on Tuesday but I don't think he will be allowed to even ride in that.

[Shadders]

I believe they have now been proved correct, that Nelson should not be riding anywhere at all in the UK and getting paid for it

I believe he was riding for free plus expenses

Edited July 11, 2010 by Shadders

[scribbler]

I haven't read all of this thread, so I apologise if I go over anything already said. On the subject of Tyson Nelson, Scunthorpe rode under protest because they didn't believe he was elligible. I believe they have now been proved correct, that Nelson should not be riding anywhere at all in the UK and getting paid for it. He is billed at Number 1 in the line-u for Dudley's Golden Hammer meeting on Tuesday but I don't think he will be allowed to even ride in that.

 

Good to get back on topic

 

Can't find anything to confirm that Tyson Nelson was not elligable yet...

[BossMan]

I believe he was riding for free plus expenses

 

 

Ahhh! so Jason Crump can ride in the national league as long as he is not being paid for it

[scribbler]

Ahhh! so Jason Crump can ride in the national league as long as he is not being paid for it

 

Good one Bossman

 

Just trying to work out about riding for free but getting expenses...did it go through the books - or was it cash in hand I wonder...and who will Tyson Nelson ride for next season???

[heathen79]

Good to get back on topic

 

Can't find anything to confirm that Tyson Nelson was not elligable yet...

 

There is no official word yet, but this was what I understand was decided after a meeting today. Expect a grovelling apology from Len Silver for using him ... what happens to the match I don't know. I think there's discussion amongst the BSPA at the moment about the situation.

[montie]

I believe he was riding for free plus expenses

 

Riding for free or paid,makes no odds,i believe what heathen is saying is correct,he shouldnt have been riding in NL due to paper work thingy