2004 Permanent Wildcards Announced

[fatface]

Here we go again :roll:

 

Hang on there. The 93-94 Finals must have attracted crowds of 15,000 max.

 

Yes, because they were held stadiums with small capacities. I didn't go to the 1994 Final in Vojens, but the 1993 Final in Pocking was a sell-out, and could have sold far more tickets.

 

Could've? Would've? Should've? Try didn't.

 

As for TV, we had a small highlights package of the 94 Final on Grandstand one week later.

 

Who would you say has the biggest viewing figures - Grandstand or Sky Sports?

 

That's bloody obvious. But if you ask me what reaches a greater amount of people. 30 hours of live World Championships SKY coverage over a season at peak viewing times, plus an additional 60 hours of repeats, plus 10 terrestrial hours from Channel 4. I think I'll take that over 30 minutes a year of a week-late coverage on Sunday Grandstand. And at the time the coverage was seen as a bonus - you will have seen nothing from the 90, 91, 92, 93 Finals on BBC or ITV, as I recall only Eurosport covered them.

 

Throw in the qualifying rounds - World Semis, Overseas etc. and you'd have say 40,000 max watching the World Championships. Now, even by your conservative estimates, our World Championship is seen by 160,000 paying customers

 

You accuse me of being selective, but then you do exactly the same. Aggregate attendances do not tell the whole story, because many fans will watch multiple rounds of the SGP. I suspect there are still only 40,000 fans that watch World Championship speedway, but a good percentage attend several rounds.

 

I think you are overestimating the wealth of speedway fans. Only 40,000 watch it in total? Using your figures - 30k GB, Scandinavia, Poland GPs, 15k Czech, Danish, Swedish, Poland II GPs, Slovenia 8k, Norway 5k. That's 163,000 overall. So that would mean this wandering band of 40,000 people take in an average of at least 4 GPs per season. Of all the people on this forum, there mught be one or two maximum who a) did that, could afford it.

 

Once again though, you miss my point. I'm not arguing that a handful of the GPs are better attended, or even that they're watched by more viewers, but I dispute that BSI have created that market. I think it was always there, and anyone that had the vision (and financial backing) to rent out a large stadium and do the proper promotion would have got the same crowds.

 

Quite right, cos speedway is a great sport, it will always have a market. Thank God, we have finally got somebody with a little vision to put the sport back on the big stage.

 

As I've said previously, BSI have undoubtedly improved the SGP compared to what it was, but I don't think it's as good as people seem to think, and I also question their economic model. Time will tell I suppose!

 

Time will tell. To be honest, let's look at the worst case scenario. Even if the financial model collapses. BSI discredited, a few promoters out of pocket. But the sport itself of vastly greater interest to thousands more people. Where will we be? Still well ahead of where we were 10 years ago. And light years ahead of where we would have been had we stuck with the untelevised, one-off World Final in crappy stadiums like Pocking-format. Lord knows where we might have been. Maybe the County Ground would have hosted a World Final by now

 

Now, even by your conservative estimates

 

You surely don't believe that the quoted attendance figures are all paying customers? I heard that at one GP, only half the reported number of people actually paid to get in.

 

our World Championship is seen by 160,000 paying customers and is broadcast live to hundreds of thousands (probably millions) of others throught Europe and also shown in Australia.

 

And I would ask how many of those people have we seen through the turnstiles in Britain?

 

Once again, 23 tracks in Britain before SKY coverage of GPs, now there are 32. The GPs have moved on significantly in recent years and I can only see the number of tracks increasing rather than decreasing.

[Jeff.]

Kevin have you not considered that from the early eighties to the late nineties speedway was in a serious steep decline. Do you not think that left unchecked that decline would have continued until there was no competitive speedway left in this country. It is remarkable that we are in a position to even be anywhere near levels of the late eighties let alone bettering them. There are people on this very forum who admit to the TV coverage either re kindling or starting their interest in the sport. On the point of BSI using the riding assets of the Elite League that isn't 100% true. Rickardsson only came back to the Elite League to assist his GP chances, so did Gollob, I get the feeling Ryan Sullivan wouldn't be here if he didn't feel it helped his GP chances. You could argue that these riders wouldn't be here in the first place if it was not for the GP

[Kevin Meynell]

Could've? Would've? Should've? Try didn't.

 

At that time, there was a five-year World Final rota between Britain, Sweden, Poland, Denmark and Germany. Germany originally got on the rota by hosting the 1989 Final in the Munich Olympic Stadium, and promising to hold the 1993 Final in the Berlin Olympic Stadium. When the switch to Pocking was proposed, the Final should have been taken away and held elsewhere. The reason that it wasn't was undoubtedly down to the fact that the CCP President was German.

 

I have no idea why Vojens was ever allowed to be on the World Final circuit, although the fact that Danish riders were so dominant at the time would have certainly been an influencing factor.

 

My own feelings are that certain elements within the FIM wanted to run the old format into the ground in order to justify the introduction of the GP Series, and the subsequent sale of the commercial rights. Unfortunately, they did too good a job, and it took them five years to find a buyer.

 

Incidentally, selling off World Championship rights is fine for most motorsports as the top competitors already competed in them exclusively. The problem with speedway is that the top riders have always ridden in national competitions which (still) provide most of their income.

 

So that would mean this wandering band of 40,000 people take in an average of at least 4 GPs per season

 

For a start, many of the same people would have attended the two Polish and Swedish GPs. In addition, a lot of Poles go to the Czech GP, and a lot of Swedes go to the Danish and Norwegian GPs.

 

I also know of several Brits that attended every GP this season, and quite a few that attended four or more. Ryanair has done wonders for cheap travel!

 

To be honest, let's look at the worst case scenario.

 

The worst case scenario is that it'll take top-flight British speedway down with it. I know most of you BPL fans don't think much of the BEL, but if it disappears, it will have a detrimental effect on the BPL as well (see other threads for details).

 

in crappy stadiums like Pocking

 

Pocking is actually quite a decent venue for normal racing, but it should never have been allowed to hold a World Final.

 

Once again, 23 tracks in Britain before SKY coverage of GPs, now there are 32.

 

You continue to quote this figure whilst ignoring the fact that the number of tracks was rising whilst GPs were being ridden in front of sub-10,000 crowds.

 

As I said, let's just agree to disagree on this point.

[Kevin Meynell]

Do you not think that left unchecked that decline would have continued until there was no competitive speedway left in this country.

 

I think this is a perfectly valid point, although I believe semi-professional speedway would have survived. Unfortunately, we can only base our arguments on the situation as it is now.

 

I get the feeling Ryan Sullivan wouldn't be here if he didn't feel it helped his GP chances.

 

He's hardly here now as it is ;-)