stevehone Posted October 28, 2003 Report Share Posted October 28, 2003 who cares...i don't even like the GP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fatface Posted October 28, 2003 Report Share Posted October 28, 2003 Aye right Steve! You'll be there every GP Saturday in front of the TV with your surround sound cranked up. How miserable it must be for you for those 10 or so Saturdays every year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lioness Posted October 28, 2003 Author Report Share Posted October 28, 2003 Falcace if you check out the SWC reduced to 8 thread you'll see Steve was being facetious ;-) Steve please can you stick to be sarcastic-I cant spell facetious! lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevehone Posted October 28, 2003 Report Share Posted October 28, 2003 thanks Lioness.... sarcastic is much better...the other word makes it sound like i'm taking a dump Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayEmm Posted October 29, 2003 Report Share Posted October 29, 2003 That's just it mate, he don't ! :evil: I have not got over Saturday(or one or a few other noteable occasions during the season usually involving Poole) either Steve, mind you we did get £275 for his gloves, hat and goggles on Sunday to add to the Carlos fund so he has his uses. Nice talking to you on Saturday Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryn Posted October 31, 2003 Report Share Posted October 31, 2003 Am I the only one who mourns the fact that riders are now "picked" to take part in the World Championship rather than them having to qualify? :roll: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shazzybird Posted October 31, 2003 Report Share Posted October 31, 2003 If it means another meeting to watch to justify a GP placing then I'm with you Bryn Any excuse for another meeting Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Meynell Posted October 31, 2003 Report Share Posted October 31, 2003 Am I the only one who mourns the fact that riders are now "picked" to take part in the World Championship rather than them having to qualify? :roll: No, there are still a whole two places available through next season's qualifying competition ;-) Personally, I believe all the riders in the SGP should have to qualify on merit, but with so many being nominated anyway, the qualifying rounds were becoming a complete waste of time. They would have become even more irrelevant with the reduction of the SGP field to 18 riders in 2005, so it's probably better to do without the disruption they cause to domestic programmes. What worries me though, is that the likes of the European Championship will be expanded, and we'll be back to square one again. To be honest, my interest in the whole world championship thing is waning. It's not really a sporting contest anymore, but a lottery to which you have to be invited. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Star Lady Posted October 31, 2003 Report Share Posted October 31, 2003 I'm with you too Bryn. The World Champion is supposed to be the best rider of any particular year. That can never be said if ALL riders are not give the chance to qualify. My thoughts are that choosing GP riders is maybe the first step to a whole GP circus with riders solely competing in that competition, well I can live in hope Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Meynell Posted October 31, 2003 Report Share Posted October 31, 2003 My thoughts are that choosing GP riders is maybe the first step to a whole GP circus with riders solely competing in that competition, well I can live in hope I suspect you'll be living in hope for a long time, especially at the current levels of prize money ;-) I think we're more likely to see the series contract than expand in the next few years, as local promoters get fed-up of subsidising loss-making GPs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Star Lady Posted October 31, 2003 Report Share Posted October 31, 2003 I realise that Kevin but I'm an optimist. The contract option would be good too if it contracts to invisible especially if BSI are going to play god with nominating riders. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff. Posted October 31, 2003 Report Share Posted October 31, 2003 I'm with you too Bryn. The World Champion is supposed to be the best rider of any particular year. That can never be said if ALL riders are not give the chance to qualify. My thoughts are that choosing GP riders is maybe the first step to a whole GP circus with riders solely competing in that competition, well I can live in hope Ever since I can remember most fans were saying how much fairer it would be to have a World Championship decided on a GP basis rather than a one off like existed at the time. Now we have the fairest possible method of deciding a Champion and people are still not happy. Star Lady how do you suggest that the qualifying events and the actual competition take place over the same season? It is not possible to race a season of qualifying stages for a tournament that started 6 months ago. I am interested in which Grand Prix Champion you feel was unjust, or as you put it "not the best rider of the year". Of course one off's always produced a genuine Champ, Szackiel, Muller, Havelock to name 3. Have the people who criticise BSI and Sky ever stopped to think where speedway might be today without them, 6 or 7 years ago speedway was looking dead and buried but now the slide seems to have been halted and even a marginal improvement in support seems to have occured, I suppose this is just coincidence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Meynell Posted October 31, 2003 Report Share Posted October 31, 2003 Now we have the fairest possible method of deciding a Champion and people are still not happy. I don't object the GP system per se. My objections are because the SGP doesn't attempt to coexist with the national leagues who still provide the bulk of rider incomes, because I don't believe that the SGP has a sustainable financial model, and because the competitors are no longer selected on merit. Have the people who criticise BSI and Sky ever stopped to think where speedway might be today without them Pretty much in the same state as now, but without all the disruption. Yes, BSI have taken GPs to the odd large stadium and got a couple of 30,000 attendances (although most don't draw more than 10,000), but what does this mean for domestic competitions? How many fans has it actually added to attendances, or how much extra revenue has it generated for local tracks increased? Very little I'd suggest, and in the meantime, BSI shareholders are taking money out of the sport that's unlikely to ever find its way back. Now I don't actually have anything against BSI for trying to run a profitable enterprise, but few enterprises expect to get their raw materials (i.e. riders) for nothing, be subsidised by their franchises, and still be allowed to undermine their suppliers' businesses. Of course, when the suppliers have all gone out of business and there are no longer any raw materials left, BSI can get out and move to another industry, leaving behind a dead landscape. Until BSI are prepared to properly fund the SGP and become the riders' main source of income, I'm afraid the national leagues should not lay down and be ridden over roughshod. This said, if the likes of the BSPA had done their jobs properly years ago, there wouldn't have been any scope for the likes of BSI to come along and effectively hijack the sport. The likes of the SGP and SWC should be run by speedway promoters, not corporate entertainment companies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fatface Posted October 31, 2003 Report Share Posted October 31, 2003 You are bang on Jeff. The pros of the current format far outweigh the cons. There hasn't even been a year yet where somebody who hasn't been able to qualify for that year's GPs could realistically expect to get in the top 10, never mind win it. It never ceases to amaze me the criticism Sky and BSI recieve on the forum. Even when the sport was in its heyday, live coverage was a rarity. Now we have national live coverage of all World Championship events and weekly league racing. At the start of the 90s, I reckon you would have got bloody long odds on that happening. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff. Posted October 31, 2003 Report Share Posted October 31, 2003 Kevin even before BSI the FIM got the riders for World Championship events for free and even if the rewards for GPs are not of Formula 1 proportions they are still better than the rewards for winning the old World Final. You say that without Sky and BSI things would be much the same anyway. Obviously it is total conjecture but I doubt that very much, In fact I would question whether there would be any form of top class speedway at all. I know of many new fans who have been attracted, or had their interest re-kindled, by speedway on TV. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fatface Posted October 31, 2003 Report Share Posted October 31, 2003 Yes, BSI have taken GPs to the odd large stadium and got a couple of 30,000 attendances (although most don't draw more than 10,000), but what does this mean for domestic competitions? How many fans has it actually added to attendances, or how much extra revenue has it generated for local tracks increased? I do think this idea that BSI, SKY and the GPs has done nothing to increase interest in Britain really ought to be put to bed. I've done some research, here's what I've come up with: 1994 (pre-GP/BSI/SKY) No of clubs: BL Div 1 - 11 BL Div 2 - 10 Others tracks (Buxton/Linlithgow) - 2 TOTAL - 23 2003 (incl GP/BSI/SKY) No of clubs: EL - 8 PL - 18 CL - 5* Others (Weymouth) - 1 TOTAL - 32 *not counting clubs who also have teams in higher leagues Nine extra clubs now in Britain - that's nearly 50% more - this can't be coincidence, surely? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Star Lady Posted October 31, 2003 Report Share Posted October 31, 2003 Star Lady how do you suggest that the qualifying events and the actual competition take place over the same season? I don't. All riders should have the chance to earn a place. I worded it badly, riders obviously have to qualify the year before. Riders however should have the chance to qualify even if it's only to compete for one GP place in the series. Had the GP riders been nominated by for example the Czech federation, Tomas Topinka would never get the chance simply because one member of the federation doesn't like him. The possiblity that could happen in the GP series to a rider will always exist, now please don't tell me you think that's fair. Falcace like Kevin M, I have no axe to grind with BSI if they try to co-exist with British Speedway but so far I see absolutely no sign of any co-operation, do you? Think back to the Swedish GP, did they consider the effect on British clubs and all the other riders postponments of league matches would affect. No of course they didn't. I'm still not convinced that showing league matches and GPs on Sky actually benefits British Clubs. Name me a club that has actually come out and said their attendances have improved because of Speedway on TV and if by any chance you can please explain all the postings on this and other forums by regulars at tracks who stay at home and watch in comfort and warmth when their team is on Sky! In fact how many Sky viewers actually know where British tracks are, apart from the 8 EL tracks which is all Sky ever mention. Now if Russell the Great were to persuade Sky that as they don't want to show PL or CL racing it might just benefit the sport for terrestrial TV to be allowed to show highlights (or even the occasional live meeting like the PLRC or the 4s he might just be worth the reputed large amount of money he gained from the Sky deal. That's without even touching on the subject of GP riders "shortchanging" their clubs and fans by not turning up, only testing engines etc in League matches, see numerous other threads for confirmation Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Meynell Posted October 31, 2003 Report Share Posted October 31, 2003 Kevin even before BSI the FIM got the riders for World Championship events for free Yes, but the FIM weren't out to make money, and after the permit fees and officials had been paid, the organisers (e.g. BSPA, SVEMO or whoever) got to keep all the proceeds. Nowadays, a prospective GP promoter has to pay a staging fee of USD 50,000 to BSI, and assume the organising costs. In return, they only get the admission and programme receipts, whilst BSI keeps all the television and sponsorship income. If the a GP promoter doesn't get sufficient revenue to cover their outlay, well that's just too bad! It doesn't take a genius to work out that those GPs with sub-10,000 attendances must be struggling to be profitable. even if the rewards for GPs are not of Formula 1 proportions they are still better than the rewards for winning the old World Final. I couldn't care less whether the riders are paid USD 1 or 10,000 for taking part. The point is that the levels of prize money are currently far too low to sustain the full-time circus that some people advocate. If BSI can raise the prize money to a level that can sustain such a competition, then I'll have no objection to them running the SGP the way they like. Until then, they need to recognise that they're effectively being subsidised by the national league competitions, and start showing some consideration towards them. I would question whether there would be any form of top class speedway at all. Whilst top-flight British speedway has not been particularly healthy for a number of years, it should not be forgotten that it still provides the bulk of rider earnings. The SGP needs the BEL far more than BEL needs the SGP. I would personally like to see the SGP and BEL coexist, but unfortunately, BSI don't seem to be interested in that. I know of many new fans who have been attracted, or had their interest re-kindled, by speedway on TV. Unfortunately, I don't see this reflected in improved attendances at local tracks, even though BSI have been running the SGP for five years now. Sure, it might be creating a dedicated television audience, but unless they actually come down to a track, the sport is doomed to be mid-afternoon Eurosport fodder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Meynell Posted October 31, 2003 Report Share Posted October 31, 2003 Nine extra clubs now in Britain - that's nearly 50% more - this can't be coincidence, surely? Yes, I would say it is coincidence. The reason for the decline in tracks in the late-1980s and early-1990s was an insufficient number of levels at which tracks could run. You had to run at National League level at the very least, and the problem became worse when it became the BL Division 2 and costs started spiralling out of control as certain teams pushed for promotion. It was for this reason that the Conference League was started (originally known as the BL Division 3) in 1994. By creating a third tier of competition more or less outside the professional structure, it was hoped that financially-struggling tracks could run at a more affordable level, whilst new tracks wouldn't face such high-startup costs. In fact, this has been one of the few success stories in British speedway in recent years Nearly all of the new or revived tracks in the last few years are in, or started in the Conference League - Buxton, Berwick, Carmarthen, Isle of Wight, Mildenhall, Rye House, Somerset, Stoke, St. Austell (Trelawny) and Wimbledon. I think only Hull and Newport have gone straight in at a higher level. Another reason for the upsurge in lower-league speedway is the increasing lack of grasstrack meetings where many part-time riders used to compete. Although their number was declining anyway, the foot-and-mouth epidemic (and consequent cancellation of meetings) was a catalyst for many riders taking-up speedway instead. The SGP started in 1995, but BSI didn't take over until 1999 when the number of tracks had already started to rise. I therefore don't think you can put this down to the existence of the SGP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fatface Posted October 31, 2003 Report Share Posted October 31, 2003 Sorry Kevin, if you think it is coincidence that there are now 9 extra clubs since SKY/BSI/GPs all got going in 94, you have your head stuck in the shale. There is no way on earth that prospective promoters and former fans who have come back into the sport with clubs like Rye House, Newport and Workington have done so without having their interest at least partly re-kindled by the TV coverage provided by SKY/BSI/GPs. Please don't tell me they just happen to be interested in the sport again after all these years, at exactly the same time the sport started to receive decent TV coverage. Please... :roll: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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