Aaaaaagggggghhhhhh!

[lucifer sam]

What qualifies it is that Hoskins was a supreme showman and said he invented speedway. It is a totally false claim. For one thing, the Maitland track was really a grass track. Eleven months before Maitland, the Thebarton Oval in Adelaide had held a meeting at which motor cycles raced round a cinder track (note, Rob, cinders!) under floodlights. There were similar reports of meetings form a number of places including Townsville, Rockhampton and Newcastle, all before the "famous" Maitland meeting. There was no broadsiding at Maitland.

 

Cinders are important They were speedway's original surface - so the first meeting worldwide and in Britain should really be ones that took place on cinders.

 

So does anyone know if they were broadsiding at the Thebarton Oval?

 

All the best

Rob

[lucifer sam]

hi rob, i went to three world long track finals in the 1980's - korskro, marianske lazne and herxheim. all three of these circuits were shale based and resembled very large speedway tracks. i recenty read an article by ivan mauger, where he comments that all pre 1991 long track competitions were more like speedway compared to the current long track series which resembles grass track with very few speedway riders taking part. it's just another example of how the sport has evolved over the years.

 

Cyclone, I guess speedway has evolved a lot over our lifetimes. At one time, had people been discussing the criteria for speedway, it would have included "putting the foot down" as well as broadsiding. But these days not all riders do put their foot down. And of course, this harks back to the leg-trailing trail-blazers of the 1920s. So, in this example, speedway has changed back to being more like its original form.

 

All the best

Rob

Edited March 16, 2010 by lucifer sam

[norbold]

So does anyone know if they were broadsiding at the Thebarton Oval?

I think it extremely unlikely.

[cyclone]

Once again that's very interesting, Cyclone. Nothing like having contemporary documents.

 

The information that Watson, Medcalf and Pugh demonstrated the art of broadsiding on 9 April come from the Motor Cycle report. I can't imagine the reporter would have just made it up. The report says:

"For the first time in this country real, honest-to-goodness broadsiding was seen, no fewer than three riders demonstrated their ability to proceed round the track in the approved fashion. One of these riders is an Australian, but the other two are British.

"The Australian rider, who is now connected with the King's Oak Speedway, is W.P.B. Pugh, a Silver Helmet winner. He gave several demonstrations on a 249 cc. Dunelt, and greatly delighted the crowd with his clever riding. The British riders are C. Watson (246 New Imperial) and A. Medcalf (494 Douglas), and as far as the actual races were concerned these two were undoubtedly the star turns of the day.

"At the morning meeting Watson won the 250 cc event, and was second in the 350 cc race, and in the afternoon, he won both the 250 cc and 350 cc races and was winning the 500 cc event when he crashed...

"Medcalf, who was, of course, only eligible for the 500 cc races won the event held in the morning after a wonderful tussle with Gus Kuhn and in the afternoon he was well on the way to victory when Nemesis, in the form of a skid, which he could not correct, overtook him, and he crashed heavily. He made the best time of the day by averaging 34.92 m.p.h. for five laps; the course is now 294 yards long."

 

Apologies, I should have deliberated over the copy longer

 

Alf Medcalf is indeed listed (reg no. 34 on a Douglas) and 34.92 has been pencilled next to his name.

 

And to think I had double rations of carrot with my lunch yesterday !!

 

[RobMcCaffery]

Rob, he did indeed, but then nailed his own colours to the mast of the Easter meetings at High Beech in 1928. Whereas I choose Droylsden in 1927. It's all a matter of opinion - what's yours?

 

All the best

Rob

 

Rob, we're hearing some very interesting information here so making snap judgements is really secondary. Based on what I've seen here so far I would tend towards High Beech 7/4 at this stage but I'd say it's far too complex and subjective to 'nail colours to masts'. Droylsden seems to have as much claim as any number of race meetings described by Norman in the 1900s.

 

I had hoped that my previous posting would have explained my reasoning. Much as we would like them to be most things really aren't simply 'black and white'.

 

Rob McCaffery.

Edited March 17, 2010 by rmc

[iris123]

Just out of interest Norman,have you any more details about the Shepherds Bush meeting you mention in your article?Where in Shepherds Bush was it held and what sort of track/racing was there.And was it just a one off meeting?Thanks for sending me the article.

[lucifer sam]

Rob, we're hearing some very interesting information here so making snap judgements is really secondary. Based on what I've seen here so far I would tend towards High Beech 7/4 at this stage but I'd say it's far too complex and subjective to 'nail colours to masts'. Droylsden seems to have as much claim as any number of race meetings described by Norman in the 1900s.

 

I had hoped that my previous posting would have explained my reasoning. Much as we would like them to be most things really aren't simply 'black and white'.

 

Rob McCaffery.

 

Hi Rob, I agree that it's not "black & white", but at the same time I'm not one to do a "Kelvin" and sit on the fence.

 

There has been some fascinating some on this thread. What would be very interesting if anyoNe can pinpoint at which point in Australia did they start broadsiding?

 

EDIT: Meanwhile, I've found this:

 

http://www.historicspeedway.co.nz/Start%20...y%20(world).htm

 

All the best

Rob

Edited March 17, 2010 by lucifer sam

[Nigel]

Blimey turn your back for a min and they post in their thousands.

 

Interesting stuff gents .... Of all the criteria for what constitutes real speedway there is I believe one certainty "Broadsiding the turns" this technique marked the sport out from other disciplines, this is what made the sport attractive, caught the imagination of the general public.... erm I might add..IMO

 

Using all the other criteria, surface material, track length, shape etc as a definitive is treading on dogy ground as there are many anomalies.

 

One possible reason for the lack of broadsiding was no doubt the use of stripped down road bikes, somewhat difficult to slide as they were not designed for the purpose.

 

West Maitland was a Grass track using stripped down road bikes

 

When the sport first hit Britain it was known as Dirt Track Racing.. As far as I am concerned the first Speedway meeting (as opposed to real Speedway) was Camberley May 1927. The ACU sanctioned the meeting... yes official ... a permit was issued for 'Dirt Track Racing'... A travesty of our sport it may have been but these people were pioneering a sport they knew little about. Same with Droylsdon, Fred Fearnley of the SM MMC is quoted as saying "The meeting was something of an experiment as we know little about the sport". again a permit for Dirt track racing was issued.

 

I have only very recently found out that at Droylsdon 1927 the track was so narrow that for safety reasons the riders started off one at a time!!!!

 

What of Audenshaw 3-3-1928 no proof of broadsiding ...yet

 

Audenshaw 5th May 1928 one rider in particular was noted for his deft use of the brakes..but he may have been the only one to do so?

 

I think you will find the Star article did not give any definitive answers ..it left the reader to make up their own minds.

 

I think Norbold is right on the evidence found at the time the article was written the meeting at High Beech 9th April is the best candidate for the first real Speedway meeting. IMO

 

The 7th April may well be a candidate but until we have a written report by an eye witness it is just speculation, however compelling the arguments

 

Errrm......IMO

Edited March 17, 2010 by Nigel

[RobMcCaffery]

Hi Rob, I agree that it's not "black & white", but at the same time I'm not one to do a "Kelvin" and sit on the fence.

 

There has been some fascinating some on this thread. What would be very interesting if anyoNe can pinpoint at which point in Australia did they start broadsiding?

 

EDIT: Meanwhile, I've found this:

 

http://www.historicspeedway.co.nz/Start%20...y%20(world).htm

 

All the best

Rob

 

Nothing wrong with 'sitting on the fence' if you genuinely cannot decide - it's a sign of honesty, not a sign of weakness.

 

Rob McCaffery.

[Nigel]

Just out of interest Norman,have you any more details about the Shepherds Bush meeting you mention in your article?Where in Shepherds Bush was it held and what sort of track/racing was there.And was it just a one off meeting?Thanks for sending me the article.

 

Im sure Norman wont mind me replying. hope you dont... The Sheperds Bush track was a banked concrete oval cycling track, there were several in London on which motorcycles raced on a regular basis. This track should not be confused with the White City track.

[norbold]

Im sure Norman wont mind me replying. hope you dont... The Sheperds Bush track was a banked concrete oval cycling track, there were several in London on which motorcycles raced on a regular basis. This track should not be confused with the White City track.

I was just about to say that!

[lucifer sam]

Nothing wrong with 'sitting on the fence' if you genuinely cannot decide - it's a sign of honesty, not a sign of weakness.

 

Rob McCaffery.

 

Rob, apologies for my facetiousness, it's just my manner, please don't take it the wrong way.

 

I'm certainly not 100% decided, but based on the evidence presented so far (largely Norbold's article in last week's Star), I angle towards the ACU-approved "Dirt track" meeting at Droylsden as the first meeting (Camberley sounds just a little too different).

 

Bikes and riding styles evolve, so I can accept them being a little different and it still being speedway.

 

All the best

Rob

 

 

[norbold]

There is an article on speedway postcards in this month's Picture Postcard Monthly which begins, "Although it is generally accepted that motorcycle speedway was first introduced in Australia in 1923...."

 

Here we go again!

[iris123]

There is an article on speedway postcards in this month's Picture Postcard Monthly which begins, "Although it is generally accepted that motorcycle speedway was first introduced in Australia in 1923...."

 

Here we go again!

It's a tough one Norman.People are still believing that old yarn that some guy called God invented the world.What chance have you got when some people seem to think Mr Hoskins was the next thing to God

 

[2ndBender]

It's a tough one Norman.People are still believing that old yarn that some guy called God invented the world.What chance have you got when some people seem to think Mr Hoskins was the next thing to God

 

I remember Johnnie, But who's God?

 

[Parsloes 1928 nearly]

I remember Johnnie, But who's God?

 

Hmm, I'm sure that as a devoted atheist our norbold must, in the deepest recesses of his brain, fear somehow meeting his maker at the pearly gates... It can't make it any better: the prospect of Johnnie Hoskins turning out to be his maker!!

 

BTW, I have personal experience of the time norbold was indeed closest to death... You MUST remember that lift, norb..?!!

[lucifer sam]

If Johnnie Hoskins is God, then Norbold is heading for hell, after daring to question West Maitland's claim to be the first speedway meeting.

 

All the best

Rob

[norbold]

From the latest issue of "Opposite Lock", the magazine of the World Speedway Rider's Association:

 

The article is titled "Darrell Mason's Tribute to the Past...Maitland 1923 still with us to this day."

 

And begins: "It is not often one os given the opportunity to delve back to the past, in this case to visit the recognised home of where our sport began its life, in Maitland, New South Wales, Australia almost 87 years ago, on December 15, 1923, to be precise."

 

There is a second article from Darrell, titled, "All our Yesterdays...Veterans from the past revisited. WSRA pays tribute to the golden greats of a bygone era."

 

This article begins: "When our recognised 'father of speedway', the late John Stark Hoskins, first introduced the sport from Australia to these shores...."

 

 

I'm just off to slit my wrists...

[speedyguy]

From the latest issue of "Opposite Lock", the magazine of the World Speedway Rider's Association:

 

The article is titled "Darrell Mason's Tribute to the Past...Maitland 1923 still with us to this day."

 

And begins: "It is not often one os given the opportunity to delve back to the past, in this case to visit the recognised home of where our sport began its life, in Maitland, New South Wales, Australia almost 87 years ago, on December 15, 1923, to be precise."

 

There is a second article from Darrell, titled, "All our Yesterdays...Veterans from the past revisited. WSRA pays tribute to the golden greats of a bygone era."

 

This article begins: "When our recognised 'father of speedway', the late John Stark Hoskins, first introduced the sport from Australia to these shores...."

 

 

I'm just off to slit my wrists...

 

 

The good old perpetuating myth raises its head again. It doesn't matter how many times an item is corrected, the original statement is always accepted. That's because often researchers and others do not know the original item is wrong nor that a subsequent correction may have been made - often months or even years later, frequently not at the original source.

 

Oh, by the way Norbold, IT IS APRIL 1!!!!

Edited April 1, 2010 by speedyguy

[iris123]

From the latest issue of "Opposite Lock", the magazine of the World Speedway Rider's Association:

 

The article is titled "Darrell Mason's Tribute to the Past...Maitland 1923 still with us to this day."

 

 

I'm just off to slit my wrists...

Who is this guy Mason?Seem to recall a rabid article from him on the subject of Egon Müller.Thought he was a New Zealander,so does he mean NZ when he writes "these shores"? Maybe Hoskins played an important role in introducing speedway to NZ?I have no idea how the sport started there