Aaaaaagggggghhhhhh!

[iris123]

I would agree with Rob on this.It is the track and the way the rider goes round it that defines speedway,rather than the accesories on the bike.Shouldn't really matter if the bike had brakes or headlights as long as the rider broadslides.But then again i have seen junior meetings where certain riders could hardly manage that either

Were brakes on the bikes in the pre-1928 Australian meetings?

[norbold]

I would agree with Rob on this.It is the track and the way the rider goes round it that defines speedway,rather than the accesories on the bike.Shouldn't really matter if the bike had brakes or headlights as long as the rider broadslides.

Yes, but Rob doesn't think broadsiding is important either.

 

Also, given all the other ingredients you don't feel are important to speedway, Rob, why do you think going anti clockwise is so important? Why would you rule out Camberley as the first meeting? It would seem to me that the direction is far less important than sliding as a definition of speedway.

Edited March 16, 2010 by norbold

[lucifer sam]

Yes, but Rob doesn't think broadsiding is important either.

 

Also, given all the other ingredients you don't feel are important to speedway, Rob, why do you think going anti clockwise is so important? Why would you rule out Camberley as the first meeting? It would seem to me that the direction is far less important than sliding as a definition of speedway.

 

Norbold, you're right - the direction isn't vitally important. The track is though. Wasn't Camberley on sand? Speedway takes place on either cinders or shale. Which means Droylsden is still Meeting No. 1.

 

All the best

Rob

 

[cityrebel]

Norbold, you're right - the direction isn't vitally important. The track is though. Wasn't Camberley on sand? Speedway takes place on either cinders or shale. Which means Droylsden is still Meeting No. 1.

 

All the best

Rob

rob, when i was a wee lad on holiday in 1969 my parents took me to see plymouth ride at pennycross. the surface there was very much sand like and what about all the indoor meetings raced on concrete and ice these are all classed as speedway.

[Ian]

Norbold, you're right - the direction isn't vitally important. The track is though. Wasn't Camberley on sand? Speedway takes place on either cinders or shale. Which means Droylsden is still Meeting No. 1.

 

All the best

Rob

 

I recall reading in the 1960s that the Sheffield track was surfaced with crushed granite. Does that mean that there was no speedway in Sheffield at that time? Many a Tigers' fan would be surprised.

 

 

[lucifer sam]

rob, when i was a wee lad on holiday in 1969 my parents took me to see plymouth ride at pennycross. the surface there was very much sand like and what about all the indoor meetings raced on concrete and ice these are all classed as speedway.

 

No, what I saw at the weekend at Assen was Ice Racing not speedway. And Telford isn't either - it's an abonimation.

 

Speedway takes place on:

1. Cinders

2. Shale

 

Nowt else.

 

All the best

Rob

 

[norbold]

Droyslden was a cinder track but they were packed down hard, so it wasn't in the sense we really mean it a cinder track.

 

Camberley's surface was sandy but at least it was loose sand. And it wasn't like sand you find on the beach. The soil was a sandy soil, so it was in effect a dirt track, much more so I would say than Droylsden or even the first meeting at High Beech.

[cityrebel]

was high beech the first meeting to be licensed by the ACU in this country.

[cityrebel]

No, what I saw at the weekend at Assen was Ice Racing not speedway. And Telford isn't either - it's an abonimation.

 

Speedway takes place on:

1. Cinders

2. Shale

 

Nowt else.

 

All the best

Rob

so the 1969 season at plymouth should be removed from the record books!.

[lucifer sam]

so the 1969 season at plymouth should be removed from the record books!.

 

Well I doubt very much that it was just sand, and didn't have a good amount of shale mixed in.

 

All the best

Rob

 

[Sotonian]

Or you could say the bikes should have four values, in which case the first meeting is circa 1975.

Rubbish! The Rudges used in the 20's and 30's had 4 valves.

[RobMcCaffery]

Well I doubt very much that it was just sand, and didn't have a good amount of shale mixed in.

 

All the best

Rob

 

How do you know? I suspect I've watched speedway on many tracks with no trace of shale or cinders. Hasn't the definition of a speedway track normally included the term "loose surface"?

 

I think what's clear from Norman's article is that speedway's beginnings, like many sports, especially the various forms of football were evolutionary rather than revolutionary.

 

Despite the Webb Ellis story in Rugby that sport struggles to define its first match, likewise association football. Key dates in those histories though were the creation of a universal rule-book and the establishment of formal competitions but nonetheless neither can declare an event as being the first football or rugby match.

 

Now speedway's origins are more recent of course and fall within a period well-recorded by press, photographers and even film-makers. Accordingly there is the temptation to try to establish a certain 'first' which speedway has generally adopted over the years to be at West Maitland for the world as a whole and High Beech for the UK. Both are convenient creations to give the sport a foundation.

 

Norman's piece stressed how this whole debate is uncertain - it depends on selecting criteria let alone finding an event that matches all or enough to qualify, and personal opinion always comes into it. If we disregard Norman's criteria such as an absence of brakes or racing anti-clockwise on a loose surface we might as well go right back before Droylsden to those meetings that Norman described back in the 1900s.

 

My own suggestion of criteria would be:

 

Primary: Motorcycles racing on a small oval with a loose surface anticlockwise without any braking system, using power slides/broadsiding to corner.

 

Secondary: Four or six riders using a clutch start from a starting gate racing four laps (normally) and using helmet colours to identify riders and race jackets or suits to identify the team. The use of a safety fence on the outside of the circuit only (early Arena Essex being an exception of course).

 

One other which I could throw in would be racing under a single set of rules specifically applying to the sport of speedway, issued by a governing body dedicated to the supervisioon of the sport - SCB, whether Board or Bureau.

 

Like I say, it's all a matter of opinion rather than absolute fact. As Norman correctly pointed-out, we can only be certain that we are uncertauin.

 

Rob McCaffery.

Edited March 16, 2010 by rmc

[lucifer sam]

Like I say, it's all a matter of opinion rather than absolute fact. As Norman correctly pointed-out, we can only be certain that we are uncertauin.

 

Rob, he did indeed, but then nailed his own colours to the mast of the Easter meetings at High Beech in 1928. Whereas I choose Droylsden in 1927. It's all a matter of opinion - what's yours?

 

All the best

Rob

[norbold]

Rob, he did indeed, but then nailed his own colours to the mast of the Easter meetings at High Beech in 1928.

Except I did say it is "likely" not certain.

[cityrebel]

Well I doubt very much that it was just sand, and didn't have a good amount of shale mixed in.

 

All the best

Rob

i'm only joking with you rob. i do agree with what you say about the indoor meetings, most of those staged in this country have been a farce. the only venues that resembled real speedway were brighton and bournemouth because they ran on a shale surface.

[cyclone]

A friend has kindly provided me with a copy of the programme for the High Beech meeting held on 9th April at 3pm.

 

The notes/information printed for both 7/4 & 9/4 programmes are identical, save for the “next meeting” dates.

 

The list of officials are also identical.

 

Mr W. P. B. Pugh(Digger ??) was designated as Machine Inspector, and I wonder if it would have been feasible to combine this duty with a riding role during meetings.

 

The event format is also the same, except that whereas for 7/4, 5 laps were specified, there is no indication in 9/4 as to the number of laps per race.

For 9/4 events, the additional annotation “and Championships” has been printed for each class.

 

Regarding the list of competitors, neither Digger Pugh nor Alf Medcalf are listed for the 3pm meeting, nor have they been included in the pencilled results entered.The only notable addition to the 9/4 card appears to be P.L.B. Wills (Lionel ?) in the up to 500cc Championships.

 

Do not know if this clarifies or confuses matters further, but it does provide further documentary evidence.

Edited March 16, 2010 by cyclone

[lucifer sam]

i'm only joking with you rob. i do agree with what you say about the indoor meetings, most of those staged in this country have been a farce. the only venues that resembled real speedway were brighton and bournemouth because they ran on a shale surface.

 

Cityrebel, I really enjoyed Brighton. I guess one qualification that no-one has mentioned so far is the size of track. Is a speedway meeting still a speedway meeting if it takes place on a 150m track or a 800m track? It would say it was, especially in the days before Longtrack was "invented".

 

Norbold, I realise your enlightening piece in the "Star" plays the probabilities with regards as to what is the first British speedway meeting.

 

Actually, what exactly qualifies West Maitland as the first-ever speedway meeting? What did it have that the previous motorcycle oval events didn't have? Were they broadsiding at West Maitland? Or is this being the first meeting merely an invention by the wily Mr. Hoskins?

 

All the best

Rob

 

 

 

 

 

[cyclone]

Cyclone, we went there during a Northern Tour. I was very impressed.

 

But are brakes (or rather the lack of them) any more a part of a speedway meeting than, say, a stationary start. It's still bikes going around an oval track on cinders/shale - and the riders winning the races are not going to be using the brakes in any case.

 

Cyclone, so what do you reckon was the first meeting?

 

All the best

Rob

 

I assume that was a tongue in cheek comment

 

I would imagine that there could be instances where a rider who overcooks a bend would be able to rectify the situation with the aid of rear brakes.

 

If rear brakes were not going to be used, why have them fitted in the first place ?

 

My personal criteria is anti-clockwise, loose surface (material is immaterial ) , oval/round shape, less than 601 yards per lap, motorcycles with no brakes, under 500cc.

 

As thing stand, I still favour High Beech on 7/4/1928 as the first Speedway meeting in the U.K.

 

[norbold]

A friend has kindly provided me with a copy of the programme for the High Beech meeting held on 9th April at 3pm.

 

The notes/information printed for both 7/4 & 9/4 programmes are identical, save for the “next meeting” dates.

 

The list of officials are also identical.

 

Mr W. P. B. Pugh(Digger ??) was designated as Machine Inspector, and I wonder if it would have been feasible to combine this duty with a riding role during meetings.

 

The event format is also the same, except that whereas for 7/4, 5 laps were specified, there is no indication in 9/4 as to the number of laps per race.

For 9/4 events, the additional annotation “and Championships” has been printed for each class.

 

Regarding the list of competitors, neither Digger Pugh nor Alf Medcalf are listed for the 3pm meeting, nor have they been included in the pencilled results entered.The only notable addition to the 9/4 card appears to be P.L.B. Wills (Lionel ?) in the up to 500cc Championships.

 

Do not know if this clarifies or confuses matters further, but it does provide further documentary evidence.

 

Once again that's very interesting, Cyclone. Nothing like having contemporary documents.

 

The information that Watson, Medcalf and Pugh demonstrated the art of broadsiding on 9 April come from the Motor Cycle report. I can't imagine the reporter would have just made it up. The report says:

"For the first time in this country real, honest-to-goodness broadsiding was seen, no fewer than three riders demonstrated their ability to proceed round the track in the approved fashion. One of these riders is an Australian, but the other two are British.

"The Australian rider, who is now connected with the King's Oak Speedway, is W.P.B. Pugh, a Silver Helmet winner. He gave several demonstrations on a 249 cc. Dunelt, and greatly delighted the crowd with his clever riding. The British riders are C. Watson (246 New Imperial) and A. Medcalf (494 Douglas), and as far as the actual races were concerned these two were undoubtedly the star turns of the day.

"At the morning meeting Watson won the 250 cc event, and was second in the 350 cc race, and in the afternoon, he won both the 250 cc and 350 cc races and was winning the 500 cc event when he crashed...

"Medcalf, who was, of course, only eligible for the 500 cc races won the event held in the morning after a wonderful tussle with Gus Kuhn and in the afternoon he was well on the way to victory when Nemesis, in the form of a skid, which he could not correct, overtook him, and he crashed heavily. He made the best time of the day by averaging 34.92 m.p.h. for five laps; the course is now 294 yards long."

 

 

Actually, what exactly qualifies West Maitland as the first-ever speedway meeting? What did it have that the previous motorcycle oval events didn't have? Were they broadsiding at West Maitland? Or is this being the first meeting merely an invention by the wily Mr. Hoskins?

 

All the best

Rob

What qualifies it is that Hoskins was a supreme showman and said he invented speedway. It is a totally false claim. For one thing, the Maitland track was really a grass track. Eleven months before Maitland, the Thebarton Oval in Adelaide had held a meeting at which motor cycles raced round a cinder track (note, Rob, cinders!) under floodlights. There were similar reports of meetings from a number of places including Townsville, Rockhampton and Newcastle, all before the "famous" Maitland meeting. There was no broadsiding at Maitland.

Edited March 16, 2010 by norbold

[cityrebel]

Cityrebel, I really enjoyed Brighton. I guess one qualification that no-one has mentioned so far is the size of track. Is a speedway meeting still a speedway meeting if it takes place on a 150m track or a 800m track? It would say it was, especially in the days before Longtrack was "invented".

 

Norbold, I realise your enlightening piece in the "Star" plays the probabilities with regards as to what is the first British speedway meeting.

 

Actually, what exactly qualifies West Maitland as the first-ever speedway meeting? What did it have that the previous motorcycle oval events didn't have? Were they broadsiding at West Maitland? Or is this being the first meeting merely an invention by the wily Mr. Hoskins?

 

All the best

Rob

hi rob, i went to three world long track finals in the 1980's - korskro, marianske lazne and herxheim. all three of these circuits were shale based and resembled very large speedway tracks. i recenty read an article by ivan mauger, where he comments that all pre 1991 long track competitions were more like speedway compared to the current long track series which resembles grass track with very few speedway riders taking part. it's just another example of how the sport has evolved over the years.