Aaaaaagggggghhhhhh!

[norbold]

Afraid I am not convinced by the article that the Easter meeting at High Beech was the first real speedway meeting held in Britain.

 

Why am I sceptical ?

 

Well Mr Jacobs acknowledges that the first meeting held on the newly redesigned track took place on Saturday 7th April (at 3pm btw).

 

Furthermore an Official Programme was issued for this event, which as far as I am aware does not refer to it as being a practice !!.

 

A full list of officials are listed (timekeeper, judges, machine inspector, track stewards, marshalls, clerk of the course, etc.), together with comprehensive details of competitors and events which were printed. It also carries the following :-

 

"Next Meetings :-Monday April 9th at 10 a.m. and 3 p.m"

 

I also believe there was a brief reference in "Motor Cycling" of 11th April to the meeting of 7th April, 1928.

 

Even if this meeting was less publicised than the Easter Monday events, I am puzzled as to why Mr Jacobs concludes that this was probably a practice event.

 

IMO the existence of a Programme for 7/4/1928 which is of the same design/layout as subsequent issues at High Beech in 1928, and was also sold for twopence, would indicate that the first real speedway meeting in Britain was held at High Beech on April 7, not April 9 as referred to in the article in the Speedway Star.

You may be right and the first competitive speedway may have taken place on 7 April, but I have never seen any evidence of it. There is no doubt the meeting took place, but who took part and did any of the riders broadside like Medcalf, Watson and Pugh were reported to have done at the 9 April meeting? Until I see any evidence that there was REAL speedway at the 7 April event I shall have to go along with 9 April being the first time it was seen. The Motor Cycle magazine says in its report of the 9 April meeting, "For the first time in this country real, honest-to-goodness broadsiding was seen, no fewer than three riders demonstrated their ability to proceed round the track in the approved fashion." Why would The Motor Cycle say this if there had been broadsiding only two days before?

 

If you can point me in the right direction I will be happy to change my view. After all that is why I wrote the article in the first place - to get at the truth of the origins of speedway. As I said at the beginning of the article "All that is certain is that nothing is certain" and my article should not be taken as gospel for all time if other evidence turns up. That would be just as bad as perpetuating the Hoskins myth.

Edited March 12, 2010 by norbold

[norbold]

Were you able to establish the first meeting at which races consisted of four riders racing over four laps? I know clutch starts at a starting gate came a fair bit later but when did we first see helmet colours?

 

Rob McCaffery

I haven't, no, Rob. It's not something I've really looked at enough to give a definitive answer. I don't know when the practice started in Australia.

 

The races at High Beech on 19 February were usually with four riders but over three or five laps. If Cyclone has the programme for 7 April he may be able to say what the format was for that meeting.

 

Helmet colours were certainly used at Belle Vue's first meeting on 28 July 1928 with red, white, blue, yellow, pink and green being used in the 6 man races and red, white, blue and yellow in the four man races.

 

Something else to look into.

Edited March 12, 2010 by norbold

[RobMcCaffery]

I haven't, no, Rob. It's not something I've really looked at enough to give a definitive answer. I don't know when the practice started in Australia.

 

The races at High Beech on 19 February were usually with four riders but over three or five laps. If Cyclone has the programme for 7 April he may be able to say what the format was for that meeting.

 

Helmet colours were certainly used at Belle Vue's first meeting on 28 July 1928 with red, white, blue, yellow, pink and green being used in the 6 man races and red, white, blue and yellow in the four man races.

 

Something else to look into.

 

I've always thought the use of helmet colours to have been a vital part of speedway and it's interesting to see how early they were introduced. Using a simple colour-coding made speedway races so easy to follow compared to other motor sports - easier to read simple helmet colours than looking for race numbers or race jackets often in poorly-lit stadia. Easiest to say to a newcomer - "We're in red and blue".

 

Rob McCaffery.

[Tsunami]

I've always thought the use of helmet colours to have been a vital part of speedway and it's interesting to see how early they were introduced. Using a simple colour-coding made speedway races so easy to follow compared to other motor sports - easier to read simple helmet colours than looking for race numbers or race jackets often in poorly-lit stadia. Easiest to say to a newcomer - "We're in red and blue".

 

Rob McCaffery.

 

Agreed and especially when all the riders wore black leathers in those days.

 

[cyclone]

You may be right and the first competitive speedway may have taken place on 7 April, but I have never seen any evidence of it. There is no doubt the meeting took place, but who took part and did any of the riders broadside like Medcalf, Watson and Pugh were reported to have done at the 9 April meeting? Until I see any evidence that there was REAL speedway at the 7 April event I shall have to go along with 9 April being the first time it was seen. The Motor Cycle magazine says in its report of the 9 April meeting, "For the first time in this country real, honest-to-goodness broadsiding was seen, no fewer than three riders demonstrated their ability to proceed round the track in the approved fashion." Why would The Motor Cycle say this if there had been broadsiding only two days before?

 

If you can point me in the right direction I will be happy to change my view. After all that is why I wrote the article in the first place - to get at the truth of the origins of speedway. As I said at the beginning of the article "All that is certain is that nothing is certain" and my article should not be taken as gospel for all time if other evidence turns up. That would be just as bad as perpetuating the Hoskins myth.

 

Colin Watson was amongst the competitors on 7/4 and in fact won the 500cc final. Whether he refrained from broadsiding in that meeting but decided to change his style two days later can neither be proved or disproved, but what do you think ?

 

Likewise is it not possible that the Motor Cycle journalist who posted the report for 9/4, was not present at 7/4 ?

 

FYI the programme of 7/4 states that "Kings Oak Speedway have secured the services of Mr W. P. B. Pugh of Australia as Trainer, Instructor and Technical Advisor on the track; he is also retained as rider. "

 

Perhaps one could surmise that the likes of some of those who appeared on 7/4 (Colin Watson, Gus Khun, Bill Bragg, Fred Ralph, Jimmy Stevens) had already received guidance/training prior to this meeting on how to broadside from Pugh ?

 

The event format for the meeting of 7/4 was the template used in subsequent meetings, namely:-

 

5 lap races, up to 250 c.c. Class, Up to 350 c.c. Class (heats, semi finals & final), Up to 500 c.c. Class (heats, semi finals & final), Sidecar Classes.

 

There was a S. T. Glandfield listed for the 500 c. c. events. I was wondering if this was actually Stanley Glanfield (despite different spelling) who is referred to by yourself as being present at a meeting held at Davies Park on 17/12/1927. If so, one would have expected him to attempt broadsiding based on his Australian experience.

 

I understand why you are basing your assumption on the Motor Cycle report.

 

However based on the documentary evidence of the actual programme of 7/4, I cannot see any validation of your presumption that this was a practice.

 

From my knowledge of Speedway practices, they do not have the panoply of officials required for an actual officially sanctioned meeting, nor do they issue an official programme in the same format as used for normal public meetings and charge for it.

Edited March 12, 2010 by cyclone

[Nigel]

Digger Pugh thats a laugh that man could tell a tall story. he new as much about speedway as I know about brain surgery.

 

he rode a 250cc Dunelt 2 stroke still no time to expand on the life and times of Digger Pugh .. will have to post later.

 

and Pugh was English

Edited March 13, 2010 by Nigel

[Blazeaway]

This thread is fascinating.

[norbold]

Colin Watson was amongst the competitors on 7/4 and in fact won the 500cc final. Whether he refrained from broadsiding in that meeting but decided to change his style two days later can neither be proved or disproved, but what do you think ?

 

Likewise is it not possible that the Motor Cycle journalist who posted the report for 9/4, was not present at 7/4 ?

 

FYI the programme of 7/4 states that "Kings Oak Speedway have secured the services of Mr W. P. B. Pugh of Australia as Trainer, Instructor and Technical Advisor on the track; he is also retained as rider. "

 

Perhaps one could surmise that the likes of some of those who appeared on 7/4 (Colin Watson, Gus Khun, Bill Bragg, Fred Ralph, Jimmy Stevens) had already received guidance/training prior to this meeting on how to broadside from Pugh ?

 

The event format for the meeting of 7/4 was the template used in subsequent meetings, namely:-

 

5 lap races, up to 250 c.c. Class, Up to 350 c.c. Class (heats, semi finals & final), Up to 500 c.c. Class (heats, semi finals & final), Sidecar Classes.

 

There was a S. T. Glandfield listed for the 500 c. c. events. I was wondering if this was actually Stanley Glanfield (despite different spelling) who is referred to by yourself as being present at a meeting held at Davies Park on 17/12/1927. If so, one would have expected him to attempt broadsiding based on his Australian experience.

 

I understand why you are basing your assumption on the Motor Cycle report.

 

However based on the documentary evidence of the actual programme of 7/4, I cannot see any validation of your presumption that this was a practice.

 

From my knowledge of Speedway practices, they do not have the panoply of officials required for an actual officially sanctioned meeting, nor do they issue an official programme in the same format as used for normal public meetings and charge for it.

Thanks Cyclone. Very interesting. You may well be right that the first time real speedway was seen in a competitive setting may have been the 7 April, but there is no actual proof. So it's still a matter of maybe it was the 7th, maybe it was the 9th. We know for certain broadsiding took place on the 9th but not for certain that it took pace on the 7th. Given what you have said however, I would not argue with anyone who says that the first speedway meeting in Great Britain may have taken place on the 7th. I think what we can agree on is that it wasn't 19 February!

[Nigel]

In reply to Cyclone.

 

Some of us spend many hours trawling through old newspapers, magazines, old speedway mags etc at the National Newspaper Library and others plus various archives etc' around the country... most of us are not privy to letters, diaries etc "we have to go by what we find". We do not have the luxury of owning an historic programme with all the details, particularly as yours is probably the only copy in existence. We have been unable to find any meaningful details of the Saturday meeting , we may have missed them or they may exist elsewhere.

 

Having read your evidence and opinion, you are possibly correct and sat the 7th was the first real speedway ..That is until someone comes up with evidence to the contrary, But if they relied on Digger Pugh training them then there wasn’t any broadsiding. Colin Watson would not have learnt anything from Pugh. Broadsiding on the sat 7th event is without written evidence an assumption/opinion. Of course if any solid evidence of broadsiding can be found for Audenshaw March 3rd. Then this discussion is academic. (Track length argument aside)

 

Digger Pugh:- I have to laugh ....the euphemism is lovable rogue.. Born in Northampton , he had never seen dirt track racing until it arrived in England, how he blagged his way into that job ?? “gift of the gab. Although it seems he could turn his hand to almost anything. How he demonstrated broadsiding on a gutless 250cc Dunelt 2 stroke is beyond me. (Wouldn’t pull the skin of a rice puddin) I think his tenure as trainer was short lived as was his speedway career. His only other involvement with speedway was helping to organise an amateur speedway on a track of soil covered with cinders near Hannington Northamptonshire. (That says it all) He then went back to showbiz!

 

If only we could have got him working with Johnnie Hoskins!!!

Edited March 14, 2010 by Nigel

[Nigel]

An excellent piece Norbold. The first meeting really comes down to interpretation. I agree with your suggestion that the Easter meeting at the rebuilt High Beech should be seen as the first true speedway meeting in Britain. Either way that was a very interesting read, well-written.

 

The core elements to define a speedway meeting that you identified as machines with no brakes racing on a small oval with loose surface permitting broadsiding are very sound.

 

Were you able to establish the first meeting at which races consisted of four riders racing over four laps? I know clutch starts at a starting gate came a fair bit later but when did we first see helmet colours?

 

Rob McCaffery

 

Rolling starts were used in 1928.. latter came clutch starts..then the starting gate 1934 I believe helmet covers were first used by ISL tracks May/June 1928

 

Wolverhampton and Foleshill (coventry).. races were over 5 laps usually with 5 or more riders.

 

[Guest]

Apologies for going way off the subject but I'm really intrigued why Ronnie Greene decided in 1968 to run all speedway races at Plough Lane over 4 laps and a bit!

 

Does anyone know why he decided on such an unusual action with the finish line a few yards ahead of the start?

 

Also, was Mr Greene MBE the speedway promoter at Wimbledon or simply the Speedway Manager on behalf of the Stadium Directors?

 

So many questions...so little time...

[TigerTom]

Off the top of my head (and sometime pure dribble come from it) I believe it was to comply with FIM regulations as to how many yards (or meters) a race must be to comply with FIM regulations.

 

Did I get it right Norbold!!!

 

Tiger Tom...

 

Apologies for going way off the subject but I'm really intrigued why Ronnie Greene decided in 1968 to run all speedway races at Plough Lane over 4 laps and a bit!

 

Does anyone know why he decided on such an unusual action with the finish line a few yards ahead of the start?

 

Also, was Mr Greene MBE the speedway promoter at Wimbledon or simply the Speedway Manager on behalf of the Stadium Directors?

 

So many questions...so little time...

 

[lucifer sam]

Fascinating and well-written piece by Norbold.

 

Of course, as stated in the opening paragraphs, it's all up to individual intrepretation as to what is the first speedway meeting in Britian. To me, it's the meeting at Droylsden, which was staged on June 25, 1927. The racing was anti-clockwise on cinders on an oval track. That sounds like speedway to me.

 

I can't see any good reason why Droylsden should be discounted.

 

All the best

Rob

[mickthemuppet]

Apologies for going way off the subject but I'm really intrigued why Ronnie Greene decided in 1968 to run all speedway races at Plough Lane over 4 laps and a bit!

 

Does anyone know why he decided on such an unusual action with the finish line a few yards ahead of the start?

 

Also, was Mr Greene MBE the speedway promoter at Wimbledon or simply the Speedway Manager on behalf of the Stadium Directors?

 

So many questions...so little time...

 

Ronnie Greene took over the promoting rights to Wimbledon Speedway in 1937. He ran Speedway there and paid rent to WJ Cearns who built and owned the stadium . The distances and starting gate changed in 1957. He retired in 1971 and John Cearns took up the promoting rights and appointed Cyril Maidment as Speedway manager.

The track distance was increased from 343 to 355 yards for the first lap due to the old starting gate was too close to the first bend so it was moved back 23 yards. Nothing to do with the FIM because Wimbledon was quite a large track. Wembley being 378 yards.

[cityrebel]

Apologies for going way off the subject but I'm really intrigued why Ronnie Greene decided in 1968 to run all speedway races at Plough Lane over 4 laps and a bit!

 

Does anyone know why he decided on such an unusual action with the finish line a few yards ahead of the start?

 

Also, was Mr Greene MBE the speedway promoter at Wimbledon or simply the Speedway Manager on behalf of the Stadium Directors?

 

So many questions...so little time...

the track at plough lane was reduced in size at the end of the 1967 season because of the damage being caused by the stock cars to the speedway circuit bends. the track from 1968 to 1991 had seperate bends for the cars and bikes. shale on the inside and tarmac on the outside. at the end of most speedway seasons we used to lift the shale from the straights so the car track was tarmac all the way round. it could be a nightmare trying to relay the speedway straights after a wet winter. i can remember sliding all over the place while driving a mini roller trying to pack down the wet shale!. the reason the starting gate was moved back was to give the riders a longer run to the first bend because the straights had been made shorter. happy days.

[norbold]

Fascinating and well-written piece by Norbold.

 

Of course, as stated in the opening paragraphs, it's all up to individual intrepretation as to what is the first speedway meeting in Britian. To me, it's the meeting at Droylsden, which was staged on June 25, 1927. The racing was anti-clockwise on cinders on an oval track. That sounds like speedway to me.

 

I can't see any good reason why Droylsden should be discounted.

 

All the best

Rob

As I said in the article, Rob, the reason I would discount Droylsden is because the cinders were hard packed; there was no loose dirt and nobody did - or could - broadside.In addition all the bikes had brakes. In my opinion loose dirt, broadsiding and no brakes are essential ingredients of "real" speedway. It's for the same reason that I also commit the heresy of discounting the first High Beech meeting too.

[lucifer sam]

As I said in the article, Rob, the reason I would discount Droylsden is because the cinders were hard packed; there was no loose dirt and nobody did - or could - broadside.In addition all the bikes had brakes. In my opinion loose dirt, broadsiding and no brakes are essential ingredients of "real" speedway. It's for the same reason that I also commit the heresy of discounting the first High Beech meeting too.

 

Norbold, personally I think you're being a little too narrow in your definition. After all, you could also say a stationary start and starting tapes are essential ingredigrents to a speedway race, in which case you can shift the first meeting back to around 1933. Or you could say the bikes should have four values, in which case the first meeting is circa 1975. Speedway has evolved over the years, and therefore a meeting taking place in 1927 would have different circumstances to one in 2010 or 1970 or even 1928.

 

And if you're discounting meetings with a lack of dirt, then I haven't been to that many meetings over the last few years.

 

If the track is oval, the track surface is either cinders or shale, and the motorbikes are travelling in an anti-clockwise direction, then, in my book, that is speedway. And therefore Droylsden is the first speedway meeting in this country.

 

But I agree with you said about it all being down to personal intrepretation.

 

All the best

Rob

 

 

 

 

 

[cityrebel]

the track at rye house on sunday was packed down hard with a lack of dirt. can i count that as a speedway meeting ?.

[cyclone]

Norbold, personally I think you're being a little too narrow in your definition. After all, you could also say a stationary start and starting tapes are essential ingredigrents to a speedway race, in which case you can shift the first meeting back to around 1933. Or you could say the bikes should have four values, in which case the first meeting is circa 1975. Speedway has evolved over the years, and therefore a meeting taking place in 1927 would have different circumstances to one in 2010 or 1970 or even 1928.

 

And if you're discounting meetings with a lack of dirt, then I haven't been to that many meetings over the last few years.

 

If the track is oval, the track surface is either cinders or shale, and the motorbikes are travelling in an anti-clockwise direction, then, in my book, that is speedway. And therefore Droylsden is the first speedway meeting in this country.

 

But I agree with you said about it all being down to personal intrepretation.

 

All the best

Rob

 

Personally whilst I can go along with your view regarding surface and anti-clockwise direction, I would not classify it as Speedway if the machines are fitted with brakes, which you ignore to mention, as was the case at Droylsden.

 

Oh and btw, 4 valve machines did appear in the early days in the UK and I think Ian Paterson, the proprietor of the finest Speedway Museum (Cinder to Shale), might have one

[lucifer sam]

Personally whilst I can go along with your view regarding surface and anti-clockwise direction, I would not classify it as Speedway if the machines are fitted with brakes, which you ignore to mention, as was the case at Droylsden.

 

Oh and btw, 4 valve machines did appear in the early days in the UK and I think Ian Paterson, the proprietor of the finest Speedway Museum (Cinder to Shale), might have one

 

Cyclone, we went there during a Northern Tour. I was very impressed.

 

But are brakes (or rather the lack of them) any more a part of a speedway meeting than, say, a stationary start. It's still bikes going around an oval track on cinders/shale - and the riders winning the races are not going to be using the brakes in any case.

 

Cyclone, so what do you reckon was the first meeting?

 

All the best

Rob

Edited March 16, 2010 by lucifer sam