2010 Grand Prix wildcards

[Steve Turner]

You both misunderstand, I am not saying there has to be two Brits, but very obviously there is an arrangement in place for that to be the case, always has been.

Whether it's in a legal agreement, or linked to sponsors, or BSI, or Sky Sports or an amalgamation of all those things and more.

 

You can't say it must be the 15 best riders in the world, because it's not clear who they are ! There's a system in place which says the Top 8 deserve a place next year, okay...the top 3 from a qualifying series, which is acceptable...and four selected riders, which as can be seen, is open to debate.

They are all selected in one way or another...and we can argue about it forever

[Paleco]

I always liked english sense of humour. Monty Phyton circus is flying again.

[Seb the Snail]

The fundamental flaw is that there seemingly have to be Brits in the series by right. I've posted before that I would have no problem with the Top 15 being made up of 5 Danes, 5 Poles and 5 Aussies and I stick by that view, although I guess that there's now a Russian worthy of inclusion. This is a World Championship, not some Charity Event.

 

Woffinden is a bright prospect but he is about 4th or 5th best Brit* depending on your point of view, so I'm really struggling to see how anyone can justify his inclusion in next year's series. He'd have got there in the end, but no way does he deserve a place for next year.

 

As several others have suggested, Zagar and Lindback would have made way more sense. We'd have still had the British Champion at Cardiff for any patriots to get behind, and right now that's all that we deserve.

 

* For the record, I'd go Richardson, Harris, Nicholls, Kennett, Woffinden, Bridger, Stead.

[lucifer sam]

Anyway enough of this Parsloes/Lucifer love in.

 

Jamie Robertson had no impact on the CL title in 2005......discuss !!!! That'll stuff it up

 

Chris, well I know he didn't and so do you. Oxford won both meetings he rode in by 20 points or more and would have would them just as easily using R/R for Chris Mills at No.1 (Millsy was a designated heat leader for the Academy in August, replaced by Ben Barker from September) as Jamie Robertson.

 

The highly suspect introduction of Grant MacDonald at Wimbledon on a false grade (when Oxford signed Grant in 2007 he was on his proper Grade 11, so why not at Wimbledon in 2005?) nearly had far more impact on the title race.

 

I'm sure Parsloes agrees as well.

 

Anyway, back to topic. I agree with those who can't understand why there has to be two Brits in the series. I don't see how if would effect the attendance at Cardiff. If there was one permanent Brit in the series (e.g Woffinden) plus one wildcard (e.g. Harris), that would be more than enough and more than we deserve. What have we done to deserve to get two Brits seeded into the 2010 GP series?

 

And when was the last time the highest ranked Brit in the world was the World No. 14?

 

All the best

Rob

Edited November 14, 2009 by lucifer sam

[spook]

By giving Harris the place, they ensure that if Rune decides not to race, PePe replaces him.....Hmmmmmm.

 

you could well be on the money MrW but it made me chuckle that you were the one who thought of it

 

 

Personally I would maek it a rule that anyone who doesn't do the qualifiers should not even be considered for a wildcard but I would never win that one.

 

I dont see why that couldnt take pride of place amongst the relevant rulings........ I understand why the GP lineup is part qualification and part seeding but the carrot and stick approach will always make riders more hungry and in this case the competition would hold more integrity.............. I couldnt care less if a rider's name is Emil Darcy-Woffinden or Lee Nicholls-Harris... if they cant be bothered to enter the qualifiers and make sure of their place for the following year then they should be ruled out

 

 

Why ? Do Brits have some kind of divine right to be in, even if they are not good enough ?

 

because the modern world is a ruthless and contrived place.......... we do know the reasons why we have two brits in ... we do know why Chris Harris has been the only rider to gain a permanent wildcard over someone who scored more than him (twice!)... apart from Hans who BSI were making a point to about toeing the party line

 

 

The fundamental flaw is that there seemingly have to be Brits in the series by right. I've posted before that I would have no problem with the Top 15 being made up of 5 Danes, 5 Poles and 5 Aussies and I stick by that view, although I guess that there's now a Russian worthy of inclusion. This is a World Championship, not some Charity Event.

 

a world championship without the best 16 riders in the world is hardly a new thing....in fact it has rarely happened in the past.. so why is it imperative now? Yes I agree in an ideal speedway world it would be the way but our sport is far from ideal currently. If it is because of Sky/IMG/Cardiff then it isnt difficult for us to recognise it... even if we dont agree and we feel IMG have sold a part of the competition's soul............................ but even then we have to recognise all those years of having at least 4 Eastern Europeans in the world final who clearly were only there because of that era's version of seeding

 

I wonder if IMG/Sky have it wrong and that attendance/viewing figures would be unchanged if there were less/no Brits in the competition.... or I wonder if they are bang on the money and every promoter around the country should be taking note............. while there is a chance that they are right to be cautious I personally cant blame them for that.

 

What I think many in this thread are missing is that we actually have one of the strongest lineups ever..... lets face it Tai, Bomber and Magnus are no mugs and yet we are all writing them off in no uncertain terms ... simply because the field is incredibly strong.... in fact I would describe them as better than the Verner's, Stancl's, Adorjan's, Kasper jr's etc of old

Edited November 14, 2009 by spook

[machinn]

I'm glad Freddie got his place for obvious reasons, and I'm not surprised Hans and Fred got nominated at all. I was also not surprised by Tai's inclusion, it's been speculated for a while. I think he is one of the best British prospects and his form this year in Britain and the continent has been superb. I wish him all the best, and hope that my fears that it may be a year too early aren't confirmed. Tai needs to grab the oppurtunity when it comes, hopefully he can make an impression at the very least next year.

Harris however left me thinking why? We musn't forget that he's 'won a grand prix', yes 1/33. I think one brit in the series plus a wildcard at Cardiff is more than enough. Harris was never in the top 8, never really looked close to reaching the top 8, so to exclude some much better riders to allow him into the GPs is a joke. I do wish him well, he's a Brit afterall, but I definetly was left a bit deflated after the nominations were revealed. Hopefully he can prove us all wrong and have a good season, and in 2011 he can be included on merit.

[Midland Red]

I've just read through all the posts and can put my hand on my heart and say that nothing has been posted to justify the opinion that anyone should have been chosen ahead of Bomber or Tai.

 

Most of the names mentioned as alternatives seem to be Rico, Lindback and Zagar. Well Bomber was closer to qualifying by right than any of them. Comaparing their EL form shows Zagar as the better rider by ½ a point, but he didn't do a full season. Rico and Bomber scored the same to within .02. Rico has also had his chance in the GPs and I believe recorded just one third place. Bomber has a win and a third, and is the British Champion again. With a chance at the top of the GP tree it's worth Bomber getting one more shot because if the tracks are better prepared in '10 there are few more exciting riders than Bomber in full flow (jsut for the record I'm of the school of thought that Rico is a much better racer than he gets credit for - just to add balance to my post). Tai is by far our best prospect out of the teenagers/very early twenties. He's streets ahead of the others. Only Ed would come into the frame, but he has had two chances in the last two British GPs to impress and has failed to do so. Neither Ed nor Tai made the GP Quali Final so you can't split them there either. As for Lindback - Well he couldn't be bothered turning up for the GP Quali Final so sod him!!! And Ward is just a new boy that had a good season in the PL. What makes anyone think he should be step up the GPs in '10 if beyond me, talented though he is.

 

Overall I can't see what's wrong with Bomber and Tai joining Lindgren and Andersen.

 

Spot on !

[ladyluck]

So why should he be overlooked?

 

Because he's not good enough. Zagar has, at least, finished in the top eight once. Harris never has.

[Paulco]

Because he's not good enough. Zagar has, at least, finished in the top eight once. Harris never has.

Still we can once again look forward to his battle to score 5 points in each GP

[salty]

You both misunderstand, I am not saying there has to be two Brits, but very obviously there is an arrangement in place for that to be the case, always has been.

Whether it's in a legal agreement, or linked to sponsors, or BSI, or Sky Sports or an amalgamation of all those things and more.

To me that is the core of the problem when it comes to the performance of the Brits. Rather than them having to finish top 8 or qualify top 3 in the Challenge a Brit knows that 10th would be enough to ensure selection for next year or even worse as long as they maybe have a couple of decent performances at the end of the season.

Having this safety net does them no favours. Tai will go into 2010 knowing that the chances are he will also be guaranteed a slot for 2011. Unless he is totally out of his depth (possible, but unlikely imo) or 2 other Brits qualify as of right for the following year (possible, but highly unlikely imo) then Tai will know that he is likely to be back.

 

For years Nicholls - and now Harris - have known that as long as they finish top 10 or 12 and there are no other contenders then they will get a pick in all likelihood. This must affect their attitude to their racing. Compare the way Rune Holta seems to ride his socks off each year to get into the top 8 - the difference being that Rune knows if he doesn't make that cut-off it is unlikely he will get a seeded spot.

[stevep]

I just think its funny that Chris and Tai are riding with the numbers 14 and 15 on there race jackets, as thats the position they will finish in come next October

[Sprog1]

To me that is the core of the problem when it comes to the performance of the Brits. Rather than them having to finish top 8 or qualify top 3 in the Challenge a Brit knows that 10th would be enough to ensure selection for next year or even worse as long as they maybe have a couple of decent performances at the end of the season.

Having this safety net does them no favours. Tai will go into 2010 knowing that the chances are he will also be guaranteed a slot for 2011. Unless he is totally out of his depth (possible, but unlikely imo) or 2 other Brits qualify as of right for the following year (possible, but highly unlikely imo) then Tai will know that he is likely to be back.

 

For years Nicholls - and now Harris - have known that as long as they finish top 10 or 12 and there are no other contenders then they will get a pick in all likelihood. This must affect their attitude to their racing. Compare the way Rune Holta seems to ride his socks off each year to get into the top 8 - the difference being that Rune knows if he doesn't make that cut-off it is unlikely he will get a seeded spot.

 

Well said Salty.That is precisely why GB is light years away from having a top 3 finisher, let alone a World Champion. We are condemned to the "gallant loser "status for evermore it seems.

This season we have seen more than ever the sound of the commentators at the GP's getting excited to the point of practically wetting themselves at the thought of "a British rider making the semi's" in the first half of the season and by the second half of the season it was reduced to the prospect of winning a heat. We treat heat winners as if they won the title. They will not be hungry enough if they keep getting an easy ride. Sam Ermonlenko said virtually that on one of the broadcasts.

I am surprised people keep falling for it all the time.

It also saddens me to think that if Tai goes two or three years without making an impact the same people singing his praises now will have their knives out. Just it was with Harris when he seemed a good prospect a few years ago, and just as it was with Nichols and Richardson before that. Tai is still very young. Even the top riders now, other than Emil were held back and allowed more time to develop. Rightly so in my opinion because it is a very tough sport.

The empasis is too much on youth. With the exception of Emil it is the older riders that dominate, and Tai is no Emil.

Steve Shovlar was absolutley right(not often I say that) those who make the selections are clueless.....unless the emphasis on youth is to try to turn the whole circus into a kind of speedway version of the x-factor where its all about image rather than talent.

Edited November 14, 2009 by Custer Mouse

[IW08]

Not sure what to think tbh. IMO, only Freddie merits a permanent w/c out of the quintet chosen though I can see why Hans has been given one. A bad year in 2009 so being given a chance to put things right, fair enough. Undecided about the British selection(s), I suppose Harris is merely justifiable, given that he is the current British Champion but in my view, he is far too inconsistent to ever become a top-line grand prix rider.

 

As for Tai, I think this comes one year too early for him. Of course, he'll get my support but I must admit that I am 'concerned' about the potential impact on him that it could have. With what is happening off the track in terms of his father's illness, the grand prixs are just going to be providing big(ger) distractions for him when he doesn't need it. I'd rather have seen him come in for 2011 but never mind, the decision is made now and we have to accept it, whether we like the 'choices' or not.....

[21st century heathen]

I would suggest the following riders were more deserving than Bomber

 

Piotr Protasiewicz, Leigh Adams (but he ruled himself out), Seb Ulamek, Ryan Sullivan, Lee Richardson and Adrian Miedzinski.

 

Based on what?

 

I think the selection of Chris Harris for a wildcard is a joke, how can his selection be justified after the year he just had. Finishing in the top 8 should mean something but every year certain GP riders get chance after chance. I dont care what nationallity the wildcards are, I want to watch riders that deserve to be there on merit.

 

My picks would have been: Lindgren,Andersen,Zagar and Lindback

 

1) The top eight does mean something. It means automatic qualification for the following season. You are going to be watching the 11 riders that qualified on merit. It's not as though they're all picked out of a hat.

 

2) Zagar and Lindback again. What's your justification for including them ahead of Bomber?

 

But in previous years Harris has been too arrogant to bother with the qualifiers and that has been ignored in giving him previous wildcards. Sorry but the qualifier debate is irrelevant in this case. Personally I would maek it a rule that anyone who doesn't do the qualifiers should not even be considered for a wildcard but I would never win that one.

 

Facts on Harris are that he was awarded a wildcard to the 2007 series and didn't do the qualifiers during that season, this was the same in 2008. Let be honest he only done them in 2009 because even he would never have believed in a million years he would get a 4th freebie pass

 

Its a ciompletely undefendable situation which even Harris must be embarrassed by

 

So based on history and making up new rules Bomber shouldn't be included in '10? Back in the real world - He won the British title this season, has the highest world ranking of the Brits and finished ahead of any other Brit in the qualifiers.

 

Woffinden is a bright prospect but he is about 4th or 5th best Brit* depending on your point of view, so I'm really struggling to see how anyone can justify his inclusion in next year's series. He'd have got there in the end, but no way does he deserve a place for next year.

 

As several others have suggested, Zagar and Lindback would have made way more sense. .

 

* For the record, I'd go Richardson, Harris, Nicholls, Kennett, Woffinden, Bridger, Stead.

 

Woffinden is in because there are too few twenty-somthings challenging the top riders and if we don't blood some youngsters now there is going to be a mad panic in a few years when the GP series has got virtually no experience in it. Hancock and Gollob are still usually the best of the rest, but won't be there much longer. Crump and Pedersen are also over 30. Adams and possibly Holta have raced their last GP. Surely Ulamek and Walasek are not the riders everyone is hanging the GP future on? That leaves Andersen and Lindgren (who also needed a pick to get back in) along with Bjerre. If not for the likes of Saifutdinov and Woffinden gaining experience now where would we in a few years time? I'm not saying we should flood the GP with youngsters, but bringing one in each year over the next 5 years (for eg) will help replace the experienced but aging top 8 as they drop out.

 

Zagar and Lindback again. Why?

 

And why Rico ahead of Bomber?

 

And when was the last time the highest ranked Brit in the world was the World No. 14?

 

No idea. But is makes a mockery of the argument that the GP should be the best ranked riders but that Bomber should not be included.

 

Because he's not good enough. Zagar has, at least, finished in the top eight once. Harris never has.

 

That's not a requirement that has to be fulfilled.

[ladyluck]

Based on what?

 

In Ulamek's case, based on finishing ABOVE Harris in the 2009 GPs, or didn't you spot that from your Brandon bunker?

[Seb the Snail]

Woffinden is in because there are too few twenty-somthings challenging the top riders

Ah right, so it's not based on ability, it's not even nationality (as most of us suspected), it's all down to Tai's age. Bless.

 

Zagar and Lindback again. Why?

Possibly because they are more accomplished speedway riders? Just a thought; or is 7.47 Tai actually a better rider than 9.15 Matej?

 

Not that I'm basing my view on EL performances alone...

 

And why Rico ahead of Bomber?

Higher average in all 3 European Leagues seems a good place to start?

 

Britain - a whisker in it, but Lee wins 8.56 - 8.54

Sweden - no contest, Rico came 10th in the league ahead of the likes of Gollob, Emil, Freddie and Holder.

Poland - Rico (7.22) the top Brit once again, well ahead of Tai (6.58) in second place.

 

Better record in the SWC... the leading Brit for years, including 17 points in the Race Off this year (as many as Chris 9 and Tai 8 put together).

 

Do you want me to carry on?

Edited November 14, 2009 by Seb the Snail

[SCB]

Richardson is far and away in every sense possible the best British rider at present and has been for a few years now. He had a really terrible seaosn in 2006 but still did better in Poland and Sweden than any other Brit and was probably top 4 in the EL averages. I think I'm right in saying that he has best performer in all but 2 of the SWCs for GB (cant say top scoring as Chris Harris scored 3 more than him this season, but I'm sure everyone would accept Lee was capable of scoring 4+ at Peterborough) and he IS our leading scoring in all SWC events.

 

But he's not liked by the Brits so they'll all choose to ignore it. Oh and he's the only active British rider with a World Championship medal for speedway.

Edited November 14, 2009 by SCB

[colincooke]

Why? We are telling the truth as we see it.

 

 

Ditto, so come on Chris mate, slate him.

 

For the record i commented on 1 blip & have backed him since, unlike others, only fair says i.

[lucifer sam]

No idea. But is makes a mockery of the argument that the GP should be the best ranked riders but that Bomber should not be included.

 

No it doesn't. Harris is only the World No. 14 because there are only 15 permanent riders in the GP series. The likes of Lindback, Iversen and Ward would all finish ahead of him, if there were in the GP series.

 

Harris hasn't looked remotely like finishing in the top 8 in the last two seasons - he doesn't deserve yet another chance.

 

It's pathetic when the rider who finished 14th in the series is put back in. It means there are riders finished ABOVE Harris in the 2009 GP standings and yet Harris is back in and they are not. Seb Ulamek and Greg Walasek both should be well pissed off that a lesser rider (Harris) has been put in before them.

 

All the best

Rob

 

[colincooke]

Excuse me everybody, but is anybody on here English & proud to be English & proud of our English sportsmen?

 

Just thought i'd better ask.

Edited November 14, 2009 by colincooke