miro Posted December 11, 2009 Report Share Posted December 11, 2009 Great knowledge of French riders,but seeing as you touched on the Germans.What about the early German riders who rode in GB.Hamburg rider Alfred Rumrich we know rode for a short period for the Dons.But what about the other guys who also rode pre war.What info do we have about the activities of Arnold Stolting and Fritz Niemeck who rode mainly at High Beech in 1930.Or the more successful Gustav "Bill" Kellner who rode for Preston in 1930 and 31 at least???? ...and the Austrian Leo Killmayer who rode for Plymouth in '33. Has anyone had a look yet at the two clips on itn archive I mentioned? any identification of the Australians? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ross Garrigan Posted December 11, 2009 Report Share Posted December 11, 2009 No you have that wrong Norbold.McKay wasn't really a kosher speedway rider and according to Cyril May it was Galloway who gave the cameras the first proper broadsliding exhibition seen in GB.Ok some might discredit Mr May,but millions believe in the bible and that is based on less facts than Cyrils book and articles i guess.I mean at least he did speak to the man in question and get the tale from the horses mouth People still write articles on speedway history with their sources of information being what others have previolusly written in books/magazines AND also what others have TOLD THEM happened. Both of these sources of information can be unreliable. If using what others have previously written, one has to assume that what had already appeared in print was correct. Also, if one uses riders' recollections and what family members etc say happened, one has to assume the "word of mouth" is correct. Assumptions have no place in the diligent documentation of speedway history. If writers can't/won't do grass roots speedway research for their writing they should at least find someone reliable who has. If one is going to write an item/book on any aspect of speedway history, it is important to know just what historical writing is - by definition it is the documenting of what happened - the documentation of HISTORICAL FACTS. There are those still writing on speedway history today who blatantly ASSUME things happened and write these assumptions as if they DID occur. That is NOT historical writing. Cyril May might have been spot on with what he wrote about British riders (I don't know as I haven't researched a lot of British speedway), but he failed miserably with what he wrote on a number of occasions about pre-war Australian riders. His writings in a number of cases have led to the creation of speedway myths which are still being perpetuated today. What is not needed is the creation of more speedway myths - and believe me some current day writers are unknowingly (??) doing just that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
speedyguy Posted December 11, 2009 Report Share Posted December 11, 2009 (edited) People still write articles on speedway history with their sources of information being what others have previolusly written in books/magazines AND also what others have TOLD THEM happened. Both of these sources of information can be unreliable. If using what others have previously written, one has to assume that what had already appeared in print was correct. Also, if one uses riders' recollections and what family members etc say happened, one has to assume the "word of mouth" is correct. Assumptions have no place in the diligent documentation of speedway history. If writers can't/won't do grass roots speedway research for their writing they should at least find someone reliable who has. If one is going to write an item/book on any aspect of speedway history, it is important to know just what historical writing is - by definition it is the documenting of what happened - the documentation of HISTORICAL FACTS. There are those still writing on speedway history today who blatantly ASSUME things happened and write these assumptions as if they DID occur. That is NOT historical writing. Cyril May might have been spot on with what he wrote about British riders (I don't know as I haven't researched a lot of British speedway), but he failed miserably with what he wrote on a number of occasions about pre-war Australian riders. His writings in a number of cases have led to the creation of speedway myths which are still being perpetuated today. What is not needed is the creation of more speedway myths - and believe me some current day writers are unknowingly (??) doing just that. The sad thing is, once a myth is created it's perpetuated by always being the last source of reference. Corrcetions if made to errors are often weeks later in regard to written works and sadly never picked up by researchers. The assumption is that the FIRST writing is correct even if it's not. Edited December 12, 2009 by speedyguy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ross Garrigan Posted December 11, 2009 Report Share Posted December 11, 2009 The sad thing is, once a myth is created it's perpetuated by always being the last source of reference. Corrcetions id made to errors are often weeks later in regard to written works and sadly never picked up by researchers. The assumption is that the FIRST writing is correct even if it's not. How correct you are speedyguy. There is one myth which I put several years of research into debuncking. That concerns what Johnnie Hoskins wrote decades ago about when Bluey Wilkinson first arrived in England (1929). That Hoskins' myth has been perpetuated for decades. The details of my research (gathered with assistance from numerous others who were keen to help me) will probably appear in an isuue of The Speedway Researcher early next year. During the last couple of weeks a small group of people have devoted many hours of their time preparing information for an historical speedway item (dealing with the late 1920s) which hopefully will appear in Speedway Star shortly. I hope the content of that article will generate worthwhile debate. I must say I enjoyed thoroughly my involvement with the exercise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norbold Posted December 11, 2009 Report Share Posted December 11, 2009 (edited) If one uses riders' recollections and what family members etc say happened, one has to assume the "word of mouth" is correct. Absolutely correct, Ross. As most of you know I have written a number of books on local history and have done a lot of research in to the history of this area. Some of this is done through oral history, that is talking to people about what they remember, but memories are notoriously unreliable especially when it comes to dates and even places. People will swear that something happened in a given year and that they were there when the newspaper reports of the time or other people's recollections quite clearly show they are mistaken. Oral History is ok as a starting point and to get the general feel of events of the time but they can never be taken as gospel. I also give talks on local history. About 20 years ago I was giving a talk to my own local history society on the history of Clacton when I said a bit about the opening of the swimming pool on Clacton Pier in 1932. A woman interrupted me to tell me I was wrong and that the swimming pool had opened in 1928 and she knew this because she was there. She was absolutely wrong. There are contemporary reports in the local papers of 1932 of the pool being opened. There is no mention of the pool in Clacton Guides before 1932, after which it is mentioned all the time. In addition there are lots of photos of local MP, Sir John Pybus, both in the newspaper and as postcards as well as photos of him performing the opening ceremony in private collections. He didn't become MP until 1929 so this woman couldn't possibly have seen the opening ceremony in 1928 and yet she felt so sure she was right she even interrupted my talk to tell me. People's memories are a minefield for the serious historian, as Billy Galloway's recollections prove. Edited December 12, 2009 by norbold Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iris123 Posted December 12, 2009 Report Share Posted December 12, 2009 I agree with you here.I was/am doing some research on a German rider.The family told me that he was born down south near the Austrian border,from official sources i have it that he was born here in Hamburg.On the net it has been posted that he was in the Lutfwaffe but from official sources i have it that he was in the German version of the Royal Engineers.From British sources he was listed as German Champ,which came as a surprise to his family and i have never seen any list of German Champions that list him....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
speedyguy Posted December 12, 2009 Report Share Posted December 12, 2009 I agree with you here.I was/am doing some research on a German rider.The family told me that he was born down south near the Austrian border,from official sources i have it that he was born here in Hamburg.On the net it has been posted that he was in the Lutfwaffe but from official sources i have it that he was in the German version of the Royal Engineers.From British sources he was listed as German Champ,which came as a surprise to his family and i have never seen any list of German Champions that list him....... By the Luftwaffe connection, I assume the rider to be Alfred Rumrich, at Wimbledon in 1937. Maybe the 'German champion' label was given to him in south London when he joined the Dons to add more credence to his reputation. Probably a piece of local journalistic licence? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
speedyguy Posted December 12, 2009 Report Share Posted December 12, 2009 ...and the Austrian Leo Killmayer who rode for Plymouth in '33. Has anyone had a look yet at the two clips on itn archive I mentioned? any identification of the Australians? Sebastian Roth, another German, also had a spell at Plymouth in the early 1930s. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iris123 Posted December 12, 2009 Report Share Posted December 12, 2009 By the Luftwaffe connection, I assume the rider to be Alfred Rumrich, at Wimbledon in 1937. Maybe the 'German champion' label was given to him in south London when he joined the Dons to add more credence to his reputation. Probably a piece of local journalistic licence? Yes it is.And that mirrors my opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
speedyguy Posted December 12, 2009 Report Share Posted December 12, 2009 Come on, speedy...: you need to be writing a book on this subject...! If you don't hurry the good Dr. (sic) will get there before you....!! October 2 1935 New Cross, London LONDON 18 - Nobby Key 5, Ernie Evans 5, Stan Greatrex 4, George Newton 4. PARIS 6 - Leon Boulard 5, Raymond Lemone 1. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parsloes 1928 nearly Posted December 12, 2009 Report Share Posted December 12, 2009 October 2 1935 New Cross, London LONDON 18 - Nobby Key 5, Ernie Evans 5, Stan Greatrex 4, George Newton 4. PARIS 6 - Leon Boulard 5, Raymond Lemone 1. :approve: Mind you, seemed a bit unfair if there were four Londoners but only TWO of our French cousins...!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianmartin Posted December 12, 2009 Report Share Posted December 12, 2009 :approve: Mind you, seemed a bit unfair if there were four Londoners but only TWO of our French cousins...!!! Didn't bother the French at Agincourt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobMcCaffery Posted December 12, 2009 Report Share Posted December 12, 2009 (edited) Didn't bother the French at Agincourt. Didn't they demand a track inspection after four heats? Rob McCaffery. Edited December 12, 2009 by rmc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
speedyguy Posted December 12, 2009 Report Share Posted December 12, 2009 QUOTE (speedyguy @ Dec 12 2009, 11:22 AM) October 2 1935 New Cross, London LONDON 18 - Nobby Key 5, Ernie Evans 5, Stan Greatrex 4, George Newton 4. PARIS 6 - Leon Boulard 5, Raymond Lemone 1. :approve: Mind you, seemed a bit unfair if there were four Londoners but only TWO of our French cousins...!!! I have often pondered as to why only two French riders are named for the Paris team. I took the details from the 'South London Press' for the week following match. It's quite likely that there were two other riders in the Paris team, but as they obviously failed to score points were not named in the report. A possibility...if there were two more riders in the Paris team, I wonder who they were? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
speedyguy Posted December 13, 2009 Report Share Posted December 13, 2009 QUOTE (speedyguy @ Dec 12 2009, 11:22 AM) October 2 1935 New Cross, London LONDON 18 - Nobby Key 5, Ernie Evans 5, Stan Greatrex 4, George Newton 4. PARIS 6 - Leon Boulard 5, Raymond Lemone 1. I have often pondered as to why only two French riders are named for the Paris team. I took the details from the 'South London Press' for the week following match. It's quite likely that there were two other riders in the Paris team, but as they obviously failed to score points were not named in the report. A possibility...if there were two more riders in the Paris team, I wonder who they were? Further research this morning shows that there were four French riders at the New Cross meeting as the heat details below confirm: the other two were ??? Berthet and Francois Hofecker. Boulard looks fairly impressive with finishing places ahead of such renowned New Cross riders as Stan Greatrex and George Newton. The heat details were: Ht 1: Evans, Boulard, Greatrex, Berthet, 63.8 2 (rerun): Newton, Key, Lemone, Hofecker (ns r/r ), 64.4 3: Key, Boulard, Newton, Berthet, 63.4 4: Greatrex, Evans, Boulard, Lemone, 64.7 My thanks to the Speedway Researcher site for these details. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parsloes 1928 nearly Posted December 14, 2009 Report Share Posted December 14, 2009 Approaching 24 hours since our last French le twit bit...! Come on speedy.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
speedyguy Posted December 14, 2009 Report Share Posted December 14, 2009 Approaching 24 hours since our last French le twit bit...! Come on speedy.... France staged its last version of the World Championship in 1937, when the title was won by Martin Scheinweiss (Austria). The previous season it had been won by Charles 'Pee Wee' Cullum (USA). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parsloes 1928 nearly Posted December 14, 2009 Report Share Posted December 14, 2009 France staged its last version of the World Championship in 1937, when the title was won by Martin Scheinweiss (Austria). The previous season it had been won by Charles 'Pee Wee' Cullum (USA). Ah, that's better...! An Austrian World Champ..!! Did any of these successful in France fellas ride over here..?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
speedyguy Posted December 16, 2009 Report Share Posted December 16, 2009 Ah, that's better...! An Austrian World Champ..!! Did any of these successful in France fellas ride over here..?? Charles Cullum toured UK with the Putt Mossman team in 1936. In 1949 and 1950 he was a successful member of the Belle Vue team, although in second season was handicapped by a serious knee injury. Charles Bellisent, the French rider, rode for West Ham (handful of matches) in the 1929 Southern League. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Hamilton Posted December 17, 2009 Report Share Posted December 17, 2009 Just picked up on the French topic so forgive me if I have missed something. I remember Ray Liston who tried to get into English Speedway in the 60s but didn't really do any good, but I am sure he was involved to a greater extent riding in France. Anyone sort me out on this one? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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