Which Brit Should Get A Wild Card?

[Snyper1010]

Great !! even more disruption to racing in this country then next year and this time probably affecting the PL as well. Presumably SGP & the FI whatever are really looking to kill the sport off here.

 

Sorry but i cant agree with you here. If anyone is killing off speedway in the UK its the BSPA and the promotions. Every other league manages to run meetings on one race night and keep it away from GP fixtures and World Cup fixtures etc. We seem to be the only ones who spread racing over a whole 7day period and complain about everyone else but ourselves when we have riders missing due to a certain competition. Maybe if the BSPA etc got together and agreed to make a season work using only 2 maybe even 3 nights we wouldnt have to use R/R as much and wouldnt have riders missing for FIM meetings all over the place.

[frenchy]

Sorry but i cant agree with you here. If anyone is killing off speedway in the UK its the BSPA and the promotions. Every other league manages to run meetings on one race night and keep it away from GP fixtures and World Cup fixtures etc. We seem to be the only ones who spread racing over a whole 7day period and complain about everyone else but ourselves when we have riders missing due to a certain competition. Maybe if the BSPA etc got together and agreed to make a season work using only 2 maybe even 3 nights we wouldnt have to use R/R as much and wouldnt have riders missing for FIM meetings all over the place.

 

Snyper, no problem with you disagreeing. Whilst the bspa and promotors don't really help themselves they aren't the only reason why speedway is dying here. The reasons for British speedway running on the days it does have been gone over many times before and, I for one, don't really see an alternative other than to either run without the GP riders (and presumably the U21 GP riders too) - which has been tried and has failed, or to only have teams in the top division that CAN run on whatever night(s) you feel are available for British speedway.

 

I was surprised that no one else seems to have picked up on the fact that next year British speedway (at ALL levels) will have to contend not only with the SGP GP's but also an U21 GP series. For next year this new series looks to consist of 3 rounds but as with the full blown thing I'm sure that they'll extend it up to 6 or 8 rounds within a couple of years. My primary concern with the introduction of an U21 series is the impact it could have not only on the EL but also on the, currently, reasonably healthy PL & NL.

 

I suggest that if the FIM (thanks for that as I couldn't remember if it was the FIM or FIA) aren't careful then British speedway will die. You will say 'so what' but I would point out that no other country in the world is so keen on importing outside talent (especially youngsters) and developing them as Britain is. Without British speedway (which HAS to consist of viable League racing as, unlike the bulk of world speedway, that is what the British primarily prefer) then the rest will be in danger of collapsing.

 

Apologies for this posting being off thread. On thread ,if its one Brit then I'd say Harris, if two then Harris and Woffinden (assuming they want to do it of course).

[srbramble]

There's going to be a 3 round U21 GP series next year, it would be better to have a strong GB presence in that series, and blood the young riders there, than put them in the SGP, and then hang them out to dry when you feel they are out of their depth.

 

Another season on there is more probability the older riders are going to go from the GP scene

A forward thinking decision by the FIM, but are there any details as to how it will run, in terms of venues, dates, format and how they are going to select the competitors?

 

[iris123]

A forward thinking decision by the FIM, but are there any details as to how it will run, in terms of venues, dates, format and how they are going to select the competitors?

HenryW posted this on another thread..... "Yes, you are correct Iris. Next years World Under 21 Championship is scheduled to be run as a mini-GP series.

There will be the normal qualifying rounds, but the final will take place over 3 rounds, provisionally listed as being in Gdansk (July 11), Daugavpils (August 7) and Pardubice (September 18)."

 

 

[Humphrey Appleby]

Every other league manages to run meetings on one race night and keep it away from GP fixtures and World Cup fixtures etc.

 

Only three other countries have a significant league programme and still organise many fewer meetings than Britain. Furthermore, in Denmark and Sweden they're generally not having to pay commercial rents for their stadiums (which are often leased by local authorities for peppercorn rents) and have traditionally relied much more heavily on sponsorship. They therefore don't need to stage the same volume of meetings to make things pay.

 

In addition, they have shorter seasons and long summer evenings which are more conducive to mid-week meetings than dank dark October evenings in Britain. Plus many of the tracks are in small or smallish towns in remote areas (in comparison to Britain) which don't require one to navigate the M25 or M6/M42 at rush hour if you want to see a meeting.

 

I wouldn't disagree that British promoters are as much responsible for their own downfall as anyone, but the conditions for running professional speedway in Britain are not the same as anywhere else. That's ignoring the fact that it's not physically possible to have a single night for speedway whilst the most tracks are tenants of multi-use stadia, nor indeed that you could fit 40+ meetings into a 32-week season, even without taking out 11-13 weeks for the SGP and SWC.

[HenryW]

At the end of the day, I stand by what I said - you lot (ie you and Blazeaway and fellow travellers) just want the comfort blanket of the same dull old faces in your beloved GPs. None of you believed Emil would score a point: he's a shoo-in for a rostrum position; and none of you think Tai will avoid last place. Can I point this out again when you're eating humble pie when Tai becomes the next Brit also to finish in a WC top three. Something we shall NOT be seeing Messrs Harris, Nicholls and Richardson ever doing!!

Any chance of you finding some quotes to back up the highlighted section?

It's my recollection that when the wild card nominations were being discussed on this forum last year, almost everyone was in agreement that Emil should be selected...His SWC, WU21 and Polish League form was just far too good for him to be left out.

I think he's probably surprised most people, possibly even himself, with the results he has achieved, but I don't recall anyone saying that he wouldn't score a point

[Snyper1010]

Thanks for that Humphrey you have summed up perfectly the mentality in the British Leagues. Blame everything you can before actually looking for ways around it. You blamed the weather, the road system, the number of meetings, the stadium rental system. Just about everything you could possibly conjure up, yet after all that blaming the sport is still where it was before it. So yet again alot of hot air and nothing done to fix the fixture clashes.

 

Lets take Edinburgh and Glasgow for instance. 4 meetings a season between the two clubs for nothing more than a challenge exhibition. That could be 4 league meetings. Or half of our PT qualifiers. We dont need a Spring Trophy and a Scottish Cup. I cant think of a single club that doesnt have some form of micky mouse trophy taking up space in a season. That could infact be used to stage more meetings. Meaning more space in the calendar to work around FIM meetings and the like.

 

EDIT Just like to point out that this was not a personal attack on you Humphrey. More a generalised observation of how the BSPA and British Speedway as a whole is run

Edited October 9, 2009 by Snyper1010

[Humphrey Appleby]

I cant think of a single club that doesnt have some form of micky mouse trophy taking up space in a season.

 

Yes, but there must be some underlying reason for all the mickey mouse meetings, as I'm sure the promoters don't organise them for fun. It's not that changes can't and shouldn't be made to the British fixture list, but I'm pointing out that Britain is not Sweden or Poland and what works (or doesn't) there, isn't necessarily right for Britain.

 

Meaning more space in the calendar to work around FIM meetings and the like.

 

Yes, but with the best will in the world, it's almost impossible to work around international meetings now. It's not just the SGP and SWC, but the plethora SGP qualifiers, the World U21 GP and qualifiers, World U21 Team Cup, European Championship, European U19 Championship, European Pairs, European Club Champions Cup, and no doubt some others I've forgotten. You could fill every week of the season with some sort of international competition, so just when are domestic fixtures supposed to be held?

 

[jeff...]

Yes, but there must be some underlying reason for all the mickey mouse meetings, as I'm sure the promoters don't organise them for fun. It's not that changes can't and shouldn't be made to the British fixture list, but I'm pointing out that Britain is not Sweden or Poland and what works (or doesn't) there, isn't necessarily right for Britain.

 

 

 

Yes, but with the best will in the world, it's almost impossible to work around international meetings now. It's not just the SGP and SWC, but the plethora SGP qualifiers, the World U21 GP and qualifiers, World U21 Team Cup, European Championship, European U19 Championship, European Pairs, European Club Champions Cup, and no doubt some others I've forgotten. You could fill every week of the season with some sort of international competition, so just when are domestic fixtures supposed to be held?

 

Why not run an Elite League of 10 maybe 12 teams, half racing on a Monday, half on a Thursday.

 

Shorten the season considerably, lets say 01st April to Sept 30th

 

Each team will ride at home each week giving every team 2 matches a week.

 

The new Elite League will operate as one entity with an agreed pay scale strictly adhered to and each teams gate receipts being pooleed and shared equally.

 

This modern trend of rain offs would be addressed, unless heavy rain was falling at the time matches would go ahead. 3 or 4 dates could be set aside throughout the season to accomodate rained off matches, maybe even go a step further and come up with a means of contriving a result should a match not take place and not rearrange it at all.

 

Teams that cant operate within those parameters to be discarded to operate in a lower league.

 

Or alternatively just come up with more reasons why none of this can be done asnd carry on as normal with the spectre of trying to maintain turnover from less and less fans continuing

[Guest Ashie Smashy]

Why not run an Elite League of 10 maybe 12 teams, half racing on a Monday, half on a Thursday.

 

Shorten the season considerably, lets say 01st April to Sept 30th

 

Each team will ride at home each week giving every team 2 matches a week.

 

The new Elite League will operate as one entity with an agreed pay scale strictly adhered to and each teams gate receipts being pooleed and shared equally.

 

This modern trend of rain offs would be addressed, unless heavy rain was falling at the time matches would go ahead. 3 or 4 dates could be set aside throughout the season to accomodate rained off matches, maybe even go a step further and come up with a means of contriving a result should a match not take place and not rearrange it at all.

 

Teams that cant operate within those parameters to be discarded to operate in a lower league.

 

Or alternatively just come up with more reasons why none of this can be done asnd carry on as normal with the spectre of trying to maintain turnover from less and less fans continuing

 

 

 

All good ideas worth considering, but Jeff, people on here who are stuck in the 1980's or before will shoot you down. I guess a lot comes down to accounts, how much promoters pay in rent, riders wages etc if they can make a shorter season pay. It would be interesting to see how many clubs make a profit and how many make a loss. But if there are a lot making a loss now, that is even more reason for a revamp of the sport.

Edited October 9, 2009 by Ashie Smashy

[kiwi]

I think the best idea, would be to do away with Elite league have a top european league with 12 teams. Run it Like Super 12 Rugby

 

say 3 GB League Teams

3 Polish League Teams

3 Swedish teams

3 Danish Teams

 

all race each round over a weekend. 2 meetings on a Friday, 2 on Saturday and 2 on a Sunday. All can be televised.

No league matches on GP weekends.

 

Then combine the remaining elite league and premier together

 

I'd allow two non british riders per team (dont know how european union rules work)

 

Then keep the national league

 

I'd allow two non british riders per team

Edited October 10, 2009 by kiwi

[Midland Red]

I think the best idea, would be to do away with Elite league have a top european league with 12 teams. Run it Like Super 12 Rugby

 

say 3 GB League Teams

3 Polish League Teams

3 Swedish teams

3 Danish Teams

 

all race each round over a weekend. 2 meetings on a Friday, 2 on Saturday and 2 on a Sunday. All can be televised.

No league matches on GP weekends.

 

Then combine the remaining elite league and premier together

 

I'd allow two non british riders per team (dont know how european union rules work)

 

Then keep the national league

 

I'd allow two non british riders per team

 

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this thread supposed to be "which Brit should get a GP wildcard" ?????

 

 

[Blazeaway]

But in their day the qualifying rounds didn't just see three riders through did they..?!! Er, and by your logic Richardson ALSO hasn't qualified, so where are you coming from with that.!!

 

At the end of the day, I stand by what I said - you lot (ie you and Blazeaway and fellow travellers) just want the comfort blanket of the same dull old faces in your beloved GPs. None of you believed Emil would score a point: he's a shoo-in for a rostrum position; and none of you think Tai will avoid last place. Can I point this out again when you're eating humble pie when Tai becomes the next Brit also to finish in a WC top three. Something we shall NOT be seeing Messrs Harris, Nicholls and Richardson ever doing!!

 

 

Your best yet!!

 

As for me being disparaging, the only time I've been negative about Emil was when he knocked Nicki off.

[Humphrey Appleby]

Or alternatively just come up with more reasons why none of this can be done asnd carry on as normal with the spectre of trying to maintain turnover from less and less fans continuing

 

And of the course the SGP has been the way forward, right?

 

There are a number of things I'd change with British speedway, and I probably would try to go down the route of having just a couple of racenights. However, the fixture issues don't just affect the top league, and neither do I see an even more elite top league as being the way forward.

 

If I were the BSPA supremo, I'd certainly also be going down the route of not letting a third party have the prime racenights so easily.

 

[kiwi]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't this thread supposed to be "which Brit should get a GP wildcard" ?????

 

yep and I answered that one, none.

[Steve_R]

Whilst everyone is going round and round over the same arguments, the thing that sticks out to me is that the way the riders are chosen needs to be clarified.

 

Picking the best 16 riders in the world is an impossible task. Opinions are all subjective. Qualifiers are subject to track conditions that might favor certain riders etc. The best way I see is combining these two flawed methods in order to pick wildcards.

 

Firstly, to those who think that the top riders should be in the series irrespective of nationality - this is great in theory, but in practice as already mentioned this would be a problem for broadcasters, and whether you personally would watch 16 Scandinavians, or 16 Aussies in a World Series is irrelevant because overall the viewing figures would almost certainly suffer, as would event sponsership & advertising etc.

 

Take the two biggest sporting events in the World as an example. The Olympics and the Football World Cup.

 

In the Olympics, each country has a maximum number of competitors in each event. That means that the Olympic final of the 10,000 meters for example will not contain the 16 best 10,000 meter runners in the world. To do so, Kenya and Ethiopia (say) would probably have to send 8 runners each. Does the fact that the Olympic final does not contain the best 16 athletes in the world cheapen the event at all? Of course not. It is still the pinnacle.

 

Likewise the Football world cup. Because different continents all have qualifiers, are all the finalists the very best teams? Would the winner of the Australasia group make it through if they had to play in a European standard qualifying group, instead of just having to top a group containing some very tiny countries / islands?

 

Back to speedway. My personal opinion is that I think that the top 8 should still qualify. After that each country or region should be given a certain number of spots. The number of places available to each country would depend on their strength and their riders performances in the GPs over the last season or more. The number of slots should be transparent, and public knowledge. It would then be up to the individual countries to set a clear qualifying method. The SGP organisers could still perhaps leave one or two wildcards to their own choice.

 

So for example there could be a British qualifying event - maybe this could be combined with the British championship. The winner goes through. And if there is a second spot, that could then be decided on by the British authorities, which would mean that if a top class contender was injured for the qualifier (for example), they would still stand a chance to qualify.

 

The problem I see is that currently there is no published rules of how SGP organisers call in the wildcards, which leaves people confused as to why they picked certain riders over others, and then the riders in question get slated for not being good enough, even though they are National Champion, for example!

[SPEEDY69]

You make some good points there Steve. One problem might be how you cover the smaller countries? As there are only 16 places in total and only 8 available for nomination, where would they come from e.g. UK, Sweden, Denmark, Australia, Poland, USA, Russia, Italy, Germany, Slovenia, Hungary, Norway etc. etc.

[iris123]

I disagree.I think Steve is making it far more complicated than it is.Is there really so much mystery and confusion as to why they have picked the riders they have/will?

[Parsloes 1928 nearly]

In the Olympics, each country has a maximum number of competitors in each event. That means that the Olympic final of the 10,000 meters for example will not contain the 16 best 10,000 meter runners in the world. To do so, Kenya and Ethiopia (say) would probably have to send 8 runners each. Does the fact that the Olympic final does not contain the best 16 athletes in the world cheapen the event at all? Of course not. It is still the pinnacle.

in question get slated for not being good enough, even though they are National Champion, for example!

 

An excellent point Steve.. The perfect example indeed and how, as you say, in fact ALL World Championships work...

[Steve_R]

Well there is COMPLETE mystery now, hence these threads and hence why I suggested the SGP bods actually publish a set number of riders from individual regions.

 

Britain choose one rider based on their national championship or national qualifier, plus (if they get enough slots) one of their own nominated riders. Other countries do the same. It's not that complicated!

 

Re smaller countries - that is what I had in mind for the organisers in holding back one or two slots for their own discretion, otherwise Zager for example would be stuffed.