pandorum Posted October 4, 2009 Report Share Posted October 4, 2009 (edited) On the subject of the GP Challenge. great store is being made by posters about those who did or didn't qualify to or from this meeting. I tend to agree, in truth; so why not make all EIGHT places up for grabs the top eight from that meeting!! This is the logical progression of what people are saying and it WOULD make for one hell of a lot more competitive edge to both the qualifiers and the GPs. No safety blanket for those finishing 9th. and 10th. in the GPs; and restoring to us a proper competitive and meritocratic route to contest for the world title... How would THAT make the GP more competitive though? The qualifiers throw up riders who in no way reflect any form of competitive additions to the series. A rider gets a few tracks he knows and can qualify simply because he has local track knowledge. Does not mean he is competitive. And what has merit got to do with it. And yes I did use that very word in my previous post. Merit depends on who you talk to. We all have our own faves so would argue the merit of having them in the GP. If I was running the GPs I would allow the top 8 to qualify and do away with qualifiers completely and pick the other 8 based on what would best suit the series in terms of sponsors, TV, geographics and crowd expectations. Let's face it if Emil had performed crap in the GP he would still get a 2010 pick because they want to eventually stage a Russian round so want to engage a Russian audience. They would also like a decent Yank in there to step in when Greg retires as they also want a US round. But sadly there are none at the moment but don't imagine when a half decent one turns up that he will get in on merit. The level of naivity on display here is mind boggling. The idea that the GP series should be left to a series of silly qualifiers so to allow riders who would bring nothing to it the chance to qualify is silly in the extreme. It's a business designed to sell a product. By your method a top draw name could have a bad couple of meetings and miss out whilst a complete twonk could get through because he happened to ride regularly at the track. Or NOT in the case of Chris Harris. The GP challenge is simply a sop designed to placate fans who cannot or refuse to see the bigger picture. Do you honestly believe the organisers want guys like Walasek, Ulamek and Zetterstrom in the GP? Edited October 4, 2009 by pandorum Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iris123 Posted October 4, 2009 Report Share Posted October 4, 2009 The level of naivity on display here is mind boggling. Welcome to the BSF. Good to have you on board.For the most part your well thought out posts will be ignored and people will keep on banging on with the same old crap.......you'll either end up with half the forum on ignore or you'll go insane Best get out while you can...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sjm-racing Posted October 4, 2009 Report Share Posted October 4, 2009 Me & my step father have been saying it for a long time, Tai Woffinden is the best chance of britain lifting the GP title no doubt about it. The only worry i have is that when his father passes it might mentally effect him & loose the concentration needed in the GP series. Kennett i dont think will do anything apart from be in the mix the competion is to strong & i think he will be another Lee Richardson. As long as Tai keeps his emotions in order & i personally feel he will because he will want that world title for all the sacrific his father has made to get Tai where he is. I would have Woffy in as wildcard to get him used to riding as a GP rider because its only a matter of time before he gets in. Si. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parsloes 1928 nearly Posted October 4, 2009 Report Share Posted October 4, 2009 (edited) How would THAT make the GP more competitive though? The qualifiers throw up riders who in no way reflect any form of competitive additions to the series. A rider gets a few tracks he knows and can qualify simply because he has local track knowledge. Does not mean he is competitive. And what has merit got to do with it. And yes I did use that very word in my previous post. Merit depends on who you talk to. We all have our own faves so would argue the merit of having them in the GP. If I was running the GPs I would allow the top 8 to qualify and do away with qualifiers completely and pick the other 8 based on what would best suit the series in terms of sponsors, TV, geographics and crowd expectations. Let's face it if Emil had performed crap in the GP he would still get a 2010 pick because they want to eventually stage a Russian round so want to engage a Russian audience. They would also like a decent Yank in there to step in when Greg retires as they also want a US round. But sadly there are none at the moment but don't imagine when a half decent one turns up that he will get in on merit. The level of naivity on display here is mind boggling. The idea that the GP series should be left to a series of silly qualifiers so to allow riders who would bring nothing to it the chance to qualify is silly in the extreme. It's a business designed to sell a product. By your method a top draw name could have a bad couple of meetings and miss out whilst a complete twonk could get through because he happened to ride regularly at the track. Or NOT in the case of Chris Harris. The GP challenge is simply a sop designed to placate fans who cannot or refuse to see the bigger picture. Do you honestly believe the organisers want guys like Walasek, Ulamek and Zetterstrom in the GP? But the GP Challenge currently only throws up such qualifiers BECAUSE the top guys don't bother with it - safe in the knowledge that they'll be 'picked' anyhow or if they finish 9th. or 10th. in the Series it doesn't really matter coz they'll be given another chance..! Make it cut-throat like sport is MEANT to be and they'll be no dodgy qualifiers from the Challenge and no easy rides in the GP either. You have sensible views but you insult others by accusing us of being totally naive...: we DO know what we are talking about.. The GP is a hopelessly flawed concept and the most flawed thing about it is that people are 'picked' for it and there's an enormous 'comfort zone' once one is in it.. This makes for meaningless racing in the series and a below standard qualification process to get into it..! And "when Greg retires"...!! Are you 'aving a laugh!!! Edited October 4, 2009 by Parsloes 1928 nearly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HenryW Posted October 4, 2009 Report Share Posted October 4, 2009 But the GP Challenge currently only throws up such qualifiers BECAUSE the top guys don't bother with it - safe in the knowledge that they'll be 'picked' anyhow or if they finish 9th. or 10th. in the Series it doesn't really matter coz they'll be given another chance..! I'm not convinced the top guys would be taking part in the qualifiers even if there weren't selections. Of the riders currently outside the top 8 in the GP series, Lindgren, Holta, Walasek, Harris and Ulamek opted to take part in the qualifying rounds. Kenneth Bjerre, who is inside the top 8 at the moment, also chose to take part. The only rider who is currently guaranteed not to get a top 8 place who didn't race in the qualifiers was Scott Nicholls! Obviously I am just guessing, but without any selection process I would have been surprised if any more than 2 or 3 extra riders took part this year...Hans Andersen, Scott Nicholls and Emil Saifutdinov would be my guess at the ones that would also have tried them. The qualifiers basically had the best riders outside the GP series plus virtually the entire lower order of the current standings, and Zorro still got through.... The GP is a hopelessly flawed concept and the most flawed thing about it is that people are 'picked' for it and there's an enormous 'comfort zone' once one is in it... As I have said before, find me any other top line world motorsport series that has ANY qualifiers? All entrants are selected... Personally, I think the single biggest problem with the SGP just now (other than the track surfaces ) is that it is restricted to a 15 man permanent field. That is far too limiting. Things were much more interesting when there were 22 permanent members in the series. That offered much more scope for the young hopefuls to get in and mix it. I'm not sure that the format used back then was ideal, but the larger field was certainly preferable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Humphrey Appleby Posted October 4, 2009 Report Share Posted October 4, 2009 It's a business designed to sell a product. Remind me what it's selling again? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Humphrey Appleby Posted October 4, 2009 Report Share Posted October 4, 2009 As I have said before, find me any other top line world motorsport series that has ANY qualifiers? All entrants are selected... Well generally they're team based, and it's the teams who choose who they want to represent them, not the international federation or the rights holders. At one time though, the likes of F1 did have qualifiers whereby almost anyone could turn up and try to get into a race, but expense and safety concerns eventually put paid to that notion (although not so long ago). This said, speedway does not have the same traditions as other motor sports, and the World Championship was historically based on the principle of every rider having a chance of winning it at the start of the season. Okay, I know in practice that didn't happen, but there were probably 300 or so riders who started out on the qualification trail each year. I'm not sure that the format used back then was ideal, but the larger field was certainly preferable. But obviously too expensive... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HenryW Posted October 4, 2009 Report Share Posted October 4, 2009 But obviously too expensive... Yep...Pretty sad that they dropped it for the sake of a few thousand pounds. Maybe I am an exception, but I thought the product was much more attractive and marketable with a larger field. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spook Posted October 4, 2009 Report Share Posted October 4, 2009 (edited) great post Pandorum but the thing that bothers me here is that people are getting carried away............. we have seen Emil saunter into the GP pits and rip everything up.... so therefore anyone can right? ... wrong of course ............ the level of support behind Emil in his maiden season is frightening.... from the carefully arranged team around him to the level of equipment (HOW fast are those bikes?!) ....... to the obscene obscene amount of cash behind him (just who is in his pits again and needs paying throughout the season?) Chris Holder should have been in this year's series based on him being an exciting talent but IMO he did the most sensible thing and in effect 'saved up'.......... maybe if enough people were queueing up last season to back him and make promises he would have been in this year but even then it wouldnt have guaranteed him the year he would have wanted I agree with the majority of posters that we should be looking towards Tai being in the GP series but do we want him to be successful in it? and for a number of years? I am not doubting Tai's will, confidence, or talent but that alone will not ensure that his first GP season will go well enough for him to stay in it............. with the GP field looking the strongest it ever has been... statistically there is a chance that he could become a whipping boy and there is absolutely no point in that..... over the years we have seen some riders confidences destroyed on the world stage and Tai is the kind of talent that needs protecting until the right time so we know what IMG would prefer but i'm not sure they would be holding the riders' best career interests at heart..............IF GB are to have two permanent WC's then does it really make sense for Tai to have one this year? Or would it make sense that Rico is rewarded for a good season and takes a turn instead? Edited October 4, 2009 by spook Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spook Posted October 4, 2009 Report Share Posted October 4, 2009 Yep...Pretty sad that they dropped it for the sake of a few thousand pounds. Maybe I am an exception, but I thought the product was much more attractive and marketable with a larger field. no I liked that format as well.... even if it was painful to watch Jason Lyons, Bo Brhel and later on Loramski get sucked into their vicious circle of fortnightly financial losses, low confidence and pants machinery there is also something to say about the format we have now though and the fact that all riders get 5 opportunities a meeting as it was frustrating to watch someone eliminated after only two rides Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HenryW Posted October 4, 2009 Report Share Posted October 4, 2009 great post Pandorum but the thing that bothers me here is that people are getting carried away............. we have seen Emil saunter into the GP pits and rip everything up.... so therefore anyone can right? ... wrong of course ............ the level of support behind Emil in his maiden season is frightening.... from the carefully arranged team around him to the level of equipment (HOW fast are those bikes?!) ....... to the obscene obscene amount of cash behind him (just who is in his pits again and needs paying throughout the season?) The figures that Emil was quoting during the winter as his "requirement" to make a serious challenge on the series were truly scary, but I don't think he actually got the money that he was looking for. I could be wrong, but I think that some of his planned sponsors fell through due to the financial climate in Russia, and he is pretty much relying on his Polish sponsors this year.... no I liked that format as well.... even if it was painful to watch Jason Lyons, Bo Brhel and later on Loramski get sucked into their vicious circle of fortnightly financial losses, low confidence and pants machinery there is also something to say about the format we have now though and the fact that all riders get 5 opportunities a meeting as it was frustrating to watch someone eliminated after only two rides Glad it wasn't just me that liked the larger field. I agree about the format...I said earlier that the old format probably wasn't the best. Ideally, but probably impractically, I would like to see a qualifying meeting on the Friday...Semi Finalists from the previous round go straight to Saturday, while the rest race off on the Friday over 20 heats to determine the other 8 for the Saturday. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spook Posted October 5, 2009 Report Share Posted October 5, 2009 Glad it wasn't just me that liked the larger field. I agree about the format...I said earlier that the old format probably wasn't the best. Ideally, but probably impractically, I would like to see a qualifying meeting on the Friday...Semi Finalists from the previous round go straight to Saturday, while the rest race off on the Friday over 20 heats to determine the other 8 for the Saturday. i'd love to see some kind of 'feeder' competition or '2nd tier' but I guess it would be impractical unless the desire of the riders meant that they were prepared to break even or run at a loss for the chance to get in.............. it would certainly change a few attitudes towards the 'world championship' though and mean that the cream really would rise to the top with classy guys discarded suddenly breaking back in Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bazaar3 Posted October 5, 2009 Report Share Posted October 5, 2009 Easy Answer - Chris Harris and here is why. Firstly he is the British Champion and is the best averaged rider in the country. Secondly he is at the prime age to be competing unlike Nicholls who is on the slope down and Woffinden and EK are too inexperienced. Thirdly he is a very dedicated rider unlike Richardson. And finally he got higher up than an other Brit in the GP Challenge and only just missed out plus he is finishing well in the GP's. IMO it should be top 10 plus the 3 from the GPC plus Harris due to GB and maybe another competitive rider from an unsupported GP nation ie Zagar with common sense of form and age or the 11th place finisher getting the vote. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snyper1010 Posted October 5, 2009 Report Share Posted October 5, 2009 Its a complete farce that someone can be slipped into the biggest event in speedway just because of where they was born. Just another reason why the sport gets laughed at. Yes i agree that the Danish GP should have a Danish Wilcard and the British GP etc etc etc. But for someone to have a place in the series as a whole just because of their nationality is rediculous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
superguest Posted October 5, 2009 Report Share Posted October 5, 2009 (edited) The problem is, is that there are only 8 world class riders. So no matter who you select, 7 are going to fail. Going into a season - Crump, Gollob, Hancock and Pedersen are going to be in that top 8. So really there is only 4 places up for grabs. Emil, AJ, Bjerre and Freddie have held those most of the season, but Hans and Holta look like piping Bjerre and Freddie. Really these 10 should be selected, plus the 3 qualfiers and then the 2 token Brits to keep the sponsers happy, unless there is anyone of real note worth risking ala Emil last year. Darcy might be an option as he could be an adopted Brit. Edited October 5, 2009 by superguest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BUDGIE Posted October 6, 2009 Report Share Posted October 6, 2009 (edited) Being devils advocate for a second here .... for someone to have a place in the series as a whole just because of their nationality is ridiculous. why is it ridiculous? The most successful motorsport of all doesnt have a qualifying system and is all down to nationalities and audiences or am I missing something? (By the way this doesnt mean that I agree with the F1 system) Edited October 6, 2009 by BUDGIE Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oakdalepirate Posted October 6, 2009 Report Share Posted October 6, 2009 Easy Answer - Chris Harris and here is why. Firstly he is the British Champion and is the best averaged rider in the country. Secondly he is at the prime age to be competing unlike Nicholls who is on the slope down and Woffinden and EK are too inexperienced. Thirdly he is a very dedicated rider unlike Richardson. And finally he got higher up than an other Brit in the GP Challenge and only just missed out plus he is finishing well in the GP's. IMO it should be top 10 plus the 3 from the GPC plus Harris due to GB and maybe another competitive rider from an unsupported GP nation ie Zagar with common sense of form and age or the 11th place finisher getting the vote. How many more chances is Harris going to get? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parsloes 1928 nearly Posted October 6, 2009 Report Share Posted October 6, 2009 How many more chances is Harris going to get? Perhaps as many as Nicholls..!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snyper1010 Posted October 6, 2009 Report Share Posted October 6, 2009 Being devils advocate for a second here why is it ridiculous? The most successful motorsport of all doesnt have a qualifying system and is all down to nationalities and audiences or am I missing something? (By the way this doesnt mean that I agree with the F1 system) What does a F1 drivers nationality have to do with anything? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiwi Posted October 7, 2009 Report Share Posted October 7, 2009 The problem is, is that there are only 8 world class riders. So no matter who you select, 7 are going to fail. Going into a season - Crump, Gollob, Hancock and Pedersen are going to be in that top 8. So really there is only 4 places up for grabs. Emil, AJ, Bjerre and Freddie have held those most of the season, but Hans and Holta look like piping Bjerre and Freddie. Really these 10 should be selected, plus the 3 qualfiers and then the 2 token Brits to keep the sponsers happy, unless there is anyone of real note worth risking ala Emil last year. Darcy might be an option as he could be an adopted Brit. Why is it OK to think of putting Darcy in, as an adopted Brit. If you put him in, just leave the Brit part out. Whats the difference. Then if the British fans can accept that, then go one step further. Pick the best 16 riders. Leave nationality out. After all it is an individual world championship. Its F1 not A1GP If the best 16 give you a more exciting GP then more Sky viewers will watch then more TV advertisers will be attracted. I agree with snyper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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