Premier League Points Limit 45 or 40

[Kevin Meynell]

Add in the bonus points and it comes to 46.6667 for a seven man team.

 

Of course, you also have to take into account that there will be a number of dropped points during the season. In addition, GDTS and guest rides are not included in the averages.

[Midnight_Lady]

To me it's simple.  

 

Not quite ML !! You are right in saying their are 90 points in a match BUT averages are always calculated on the basis of 4 rides a meeting (so if you had 5 rides and scored 2,2,2,2,2 your average would be 10/5 x 4 = 8]. Factor that into the equation and the break even (without bonus points) is 42.

 

The easiest way to think of it is (theoretically) at 4 rides per person per team adds up to 14 heats and 84 points.

 

Come on Lunchy, I did say to me it was simple

[Lioness]

Typical Male ML....they have to confuse things :twisted:

 

I'm with you!

[Mr Bungle]

The 45 limit has to stay.

 

If it went to 40 a lot of teams will have to break up the mould they have set.

 

Sheffield for example have had a very consistent side for years, this is due to youngsters developing and knowing they will have a place next year if they are good enough.

 

Generally the maximum number of riders that change from the previous season is 2.

 

45 encourages riders to progress but not at an unachievable rate.

 

If the 40 pt limit is introduced, Ricky Ashworth will probably then be second heat leader behind Sean, which is too much to ask for a rider who was reserve at the beginning of this season, same goes for the likes of Ed Kennett and Rory Schlein.

 

NOTE TO BSPA - STOP CHANGING THE RULES.

Create some stability in the sport.

[Phil]

NOTE TO BSPA - STOP CHANGING THE RULES.

Create some stability in the sport.

 

Yes, it seems like every year they look to change things just for the sake of it!

I really don't think this is the solution to reduce costs.

 

“Speculation suggests many clubs are in favour of reducing the points limit in a bid to cut costs for the 2004 campaign.”

 

“A meeting of all PL clubs will take place at British Speedway's HQ in Rugby, Warwickshire, tomorrow where next season's plans will again be discussed.”

 

http://www.sheffieldtoday.net/ViewArticle....rticleID=682347

[Grachan]

If there's going to be a points limit, the logical figure is 42 NOT including bonus points.

 

A points limit of 40 is just ridiculous. It looks like nothing more than strugling teams looking for a chance to get up the league a bit without making much effort.

 

Also, a 40 limit (including bonus points presumably) is going to put riders out of work because they can't be fitted into the teams. Then, when all the averages go up the following year, more riders will be out of work.

 

A side effect of this will also be more 'old hands' going into the Conference League because they can't get a team place, thus causing youngsters to struggle for places in that league.

 

Given a choice of the two it has to be 45.

[cyclone]

Agree it should either be 45 including bonus points, or 42 excluding bonus points (thereby reflecting actual match scores).

 

If it were drop to 40, in addition to putting riders out of work (probably 1 heat leader per team), you would probably find there would be an excess demand for riders in the 5 - 7 point range who in turn could raise their demands, thereby defeating the so called cost cutting rationale of a points deduction to 40.

 

Alternatively, I fear that we could end up with top heavy sides which retain their heat leaders and fill positions 4 - 7 with 3 and 4 pointers. Then instead of getting real four man races, in most heats we could also end up with type of racing common in the EL where the big guns slug it out at the front, whilst some way behind, the minnows scrap for 3rd & 4th.

 

In good old rock & roll speak lets keep the Status Quo :!:

[DW]

I wonder if anyone who wants this 40pt limit has actually thought about what it would mean team building wise.

Consider the season just finished.Glasgow finished 12th,we rode for the most part with two heat leaders.If we had a 40pt limit and wanted to use our own assets plus those who rode last season on loan to us this could be our team:

1.Stancl 9.13

2.Leverington 4.57

3.Brady 5.89

4.Henry 5.67

5.Grieves 8.41

6. an other 3.00

7. an other 3.00

Total 39.67

This doesn't take into account any possible reductions.Not that it would make much difference(0.36)

Just imagine you were Workington or Edinburgh,with their top two,almost half would go right away.

What it would do would make the heat leaders averages shoot way up due to easier rides,making it impossible for the out of work riders to come in as teams would be way over 40.

 

Try it with your own team and see what you come up with.It's a frightening thought.

[Lioness]

Excellent post DW....never thought to try and illustrate it that way.

 

Surely it just goes to show that no way should a points deduction be considered

[jgl07]

I wonder if anyone who wants this 40pt limit has actually thought about what it would mean team building wise.

Consider the season just finished.Glasgow finished 12th,we rode for the most part with two heat leaders.If we had a 40pt limit and wanted to use our own assets plus those who rode last season on loan to us this could be our team:

1.Stancl 9.13

2.Leverington 4.57

3.Brady 5.89

4.Henry 5.67

5.Grieves 8.41

6. an other 3.00

7. an other 3.00

Total 39.67

This doesn't take into account any possible reductions.Not that it would make much difference(0.36)

Just imagine you were Workington or Edinburgh,with their top two,almost half would go right away.

No I think that the top two would have to go in Edinburgh's case:

If you attempted to keep just Frede, Rory and Magnus the team would have to be stuffed with three-pointers.

 

This is the best I could come up with on 40 points using Edinburgh assets:

 

1 Rory Schlein 7.97

2 Derek Sneddon 4.88

3 Theo Pijper 6.61

4 Christian Henry 5.67

5 Magnus Karlsson 7.69

6 Matthew Wethers 3.78

7 New rider 3.00

Total 39.60

[Mr Bungle]

jgl07 - Should that be the price you have to pay for winning the title??

 

It's ridiculous.

 

Also the main heat leaders will all increase their averages even further, therefore the season after more problems arise.

 

Without the competition of strong heatleaders riders like Wilson, Schott, Stoney, Watson Shields etc. will all have 11 pt averages and then where are they going to fit in??

 

If the promoters are looking at cutting costs then how about looking at making money from getting supporters through the gate?

 

Surely this makes more sense. Changing the rules every year hardly encourages this.

 

Try explaining to a newcomer who maybe has been encouraged to attend Edinburgh because they have been doing well. This person is then delighted as they have won the league... maybe this person does not follow speedway too closely throughthe close season only to return next year expecting more of the same and rightly so.....

What do they find.... a sub-standard team punished for winning the league and being the best team with the top riders gone and the youngsters with too much responsibility on their shoulders.

 

It's an absolute joke....

[hagonshocker]

if you reduced the points to reduce costs then you would run a big risk of losing gate money surely??..people would start to question the whole value thing and the sport would start another major decline...popints must remain at 45 at least....i mean we dont wanna give stingy newport a chance of the title eh?!! :twisted: :evil:

[Markone]

Sorry to repeat wot others have said but if you need 45 to at least draw a meeting how can you have a 40 point limit, setting yourself up to fail! Its like saying to a snooker player half way thru a break oh sorry you must stop now we cant let you have enough points to win, or a pool player you must pot 8 balls to win but you can only have 6 shots, eh hello, am i missing something here?

[Kevin Meynell]

if you need 45 to at least draw a meeting how can you have a 40 point limit

 

You actually need 42 points to draw a meeting in average terms, as averages are based on four rides. You then need to make allowances for the inflationary effect of bonus points (4-5 points per team), so in fact, 45 points is below the 'break-even' point at the moment.

 

It's actually only coincidence that the current 45-point limit is the same as the score needed for a draw. This hasn't always been the case in the past.

[Lioness]

So from a Newport POV a 40 point limit with 7 riders is good news

 

So stuff whats good for speedway as a whole as long as it suits Newport eh?

 

Forget the lack of opportunity for youngsters to progress without the increased risk of loosing their place by increasing their average as long as its good for Newport eh?

 

Forget attracting new fans and instead have racing thats at best going to involve two riders at the front and two at the back as long as its good for Newport eh?

 

Remind me again......what is the matter with speedway? Or does it matter as long as its good for Newport eh?

 

:roll:

[Chris]

Typical Newport point of view. If there supporters want to support a team with 2 no hopers at reserve and Chris Schramm at second string and Tony Atkin at heatleader then why not pi*s off to the conference league. The pl is fine as it is with 45. If clubs like Newport and Somerset cant afford to pay the riders then withdraw from the league and go amateur and pay £5 a point then let the properly run clubs get on with participating in the pl.

 

Promoters like Stone and Hewlett really get on my **. The pl has been a big success and because these two cant afford to pay riders and put together successful teams they have to try and bring the other clubs down to there level.

 

As i have already said if you cant afford it go down to the cl.

[Kevin Meynell]

The pl has been a big success and because these two cant afford to pay riders and put together successful teams they have to try and bring the other clubs down to there level.

 

What no-one seems to appreciate is that the equilibrium will always creep back to more than 45 points with the first issue of the GSAs, even if you start with a 40-point limit. A sub-46 point limit should only be used when the league expands, and you need to force re-distribution of riders to the new teams. Even then, it should only be used for one season.

 

This is really a daft discussion. If you have a points limit, it mathematically *has* to be around 45-47 points if the size of league remains the same.

[jgl07]

All these terrible things that might happen, RUBBISH! Did it happen in 1999? the year of the 41 point limit? NO! All that will happen is teams will use a 5.5 heatleader and a 3 point second string. The top rider will stay the same, infact in 1999 Wilson dropped into the PL!! That said I'd still prefer 45 points to 40.

The starting point was 41 points but that increased to 45 for team building purposes when the first averages came out. This was very early in the season after the completion of three home and three away (Premier Trophy) matches. In many cases teams were able to be strengthen up before they even started their Premier League programme.

 

Thus teams like Berwick were forever chopping and changing their team. Three point riders were recruited and dumped at the first opportunity. I think that Freddie Stephenson upped his average from 3.00 to four and a half but was still dropped.

 

A number of teams started with two heat leaders, two second strings and three reserves.

 

The secret was to be crap in the Premier Trophy and push down your average and enable the team to strengthen up.

 

Fortunately in 1999 three teams (Sheffield, Newport and Edinburgh) did a good job with inital team building and dominated the league taking most of the silverware between them.

[simon]

Agree it should either be 45 including bonus points, or 42 excluding bonus points (thereby reflecting actual match scores).

 

If it were drop to 40, in addition to putting riders out of work (probably 1 heat leader per team), you would probably find there would be an excess demand for riders in the 5 - 7 point range who in turn could raise their demands, thereby defeating the so called cost cutting rationale of a points deduction to 40.

 

Alternatively, I fear that we could end up with top heavy sides which retain their heat leaders and fill positions 4 - 7 with 3 and 4 pointers. Then instead of getting real four man races, in most heats we could also end up with type of racing common in the EL where the big guns slug it out at the front, whilst some way behind, the minnows scrap for 3rd & 4th.

 

In good old rock & roll speak lets keep the Status Quo :!:

 

Hit the nail on the head there Cyclone about the 5-7 pointers puting there demands up which is way the whole thing is a waste of time. a bit more though put into team sponership ,get more fan in thought the gates etc would be more to the point

[Lioness]

Incidently Lioness, a 40 point limit give more chances to the youngsters as teams will need 2 or 3 juniors. Two rider at the front and two riders at the back eh? In 1999 when we had a 41 point limit didn't Andrew Appleton(Newport number at start of year) pass Peter Carr(Edinburgh number 1) that year?! Why does it matter if it's two races? My favourite ever race was Eldridge vs Freddie Stephenson WOW! You disagree with Theo Pijper in heat 2 against two 3.00 riders then? Surely thats no different?

 

You TOTALLY miss my point. I don't dispute more 3 pointers would be in the league, many of whom will not be up to it but thats beside the point and perhaps a safety issue?

 

The whole point is that you have a kid come in on a 3 point average.....say William Lawson this year. Kid is a hit, does really well and increases his average. Now 16 1/2, and with an average of say 4.5-5.0 kid goes into second season of speedway. Wait a minute.....no one wants him now. He doesn't fit in anywhere. His average is too good for reserve or three point rider status and he isn't quite good enough yet for heat leader status. End of speedway career at least for a season.

 

Now if he had only been an average/poor 3 pointer, everyone would be clamouring for his signature in his second season, perhaps if only his average had only gone up to 3.5

 

So tell me, how is that beneficial or an enticement for young riders to improve? Sounds more like the first toll of the death knell to me. Instead you will have a year or two down the line virtually all foreign riders as top riders as there will be no progression for riders in this country, and all wobblers at reserve/lower second string. Thats assuming people are still going to watch