Premier League Points Limit 45 or 40

[Phil]

Should the Premier League points limit stay at 45 or drop to 40.

[Guest GoldFool]

depends on how many teams there will be in the Premier.

i think they ought to start at the top and work their way down, make the Elite league an attractive package for the top Premier teams/promotions and go from there.

[Mylor]

Whatever encourages CL teams to move up or helps new tracks to enter the PL directly. Let the sport grow.

[JT]

Putting the points limit down to 40 is basically designing your team to lose. :roll:

[Lioness]

Look at the averages of the finishing PL league teams. The majority will have to make adjust ments to reduce to 45.

To ask them to reduce to 40 would be farcical and lead to more current PL second strings being unable to find a berth. Instead teams would be more inclined to ride with lower average riders and would be plucking CL riders before they were ready or bringing in foreigners with patriality.

 

Result? A weakened CL, riders being forced to step up to PL level before they are ready and more sub standard foreign riders in the PL. As a result the sport in the UK would become weaker in so far as young GB talent is concerned and the incentive for current reserves to step up is removed and any natural progression made more difficult.

 

Just my opinion

[Sean]

i can see too many PL riders without team places if they take the limit down to 40. and that would have an effect on the CL with them trying to find places there, which only puts the youth of tomorrow at risk, stopping them from getting a place.

 

why do they have to play with the only rule that is basically self explanitory. 45 pts is a match win , 40 is building a team to lose ,

[Dekker]

Should the Premier League points limit stay at 45 or drop to 40.

 

As the decision is being made for no other reason that of so called reducing the costs logic plays no part in the farce of going as low as 40. All the promoters in favour of 40 want is a pool of unemployed riders available to force wages down. Such thinking should have gone out years ago.

 

A 40 point limit will just reduce the quality of the PL and put more cheap wobblers into the league. If their are teams that cant afford to build to 45 in the PL then they should drop to the CL

[Mylor]

...........40 is building a team to lose ,

 

A red herring I think Sean.

If all teams started at 40, of course their combined average at the end of the season would be 45.

 

If they make it, say 42 or 40 then perhaps one or two CL teams could pick up some decent riders to help them make the move which I think goes some way to answering Lioness's points. Has this been tried before? If so, what actually happened and did the league grow? It would, of course be a waste of time and talent if it didn't.

[Lioness]

Sorry Mylor I am not sure how it answers some of my points, can you clarify a bit for me please (I'm blonde I tend to be a bit slow on the uptake!)

 

The way I see it the ones who will be dropped and suffer the most are thos 5 and 6 point second strings. Somebody like for example say Derek Sneddon who will probably be on an average of around 5.2. Too high for the CL but not experienced enough for a CL team to consider him a suitable 'old hand'.

 

Teams would then look towards the CL to steal their best youngsters on 3 points PL average. Teams would then try and persuade some of the potential stars of the future to step up-say someone like Adam Roynon. Undoubtedly a talent but not ready to step up as yet but if he knocks it back he might not get another chance so he has to step up when not ready.(I say like Adam as I realise he is too young atm).

 

Soon the youngsters who look good prospects are snapped up. So instead of then taking a risk on guys like for example Gary Flint (no disrespect meant) they decide with the new countries in the EU to go for a cheap 3 point Czech instead.

 

I just cant see how it would make UK speedway anything other than weaker. It would seriously affect all three leagues, British riders would be most susceptable to loosing their place and it becomes even more of a curse than ever being second string. theres no incentive for reserves to improve because to do so they either have to be superstars like Eddie Kennett and get to heat leader in a oner else by improving they do themselves out of a team spot.

 

I am probably being very niave here, I don't have the depth of knowledge of speedway many on the forum have. Please feel free to put me right on where I've gone wrong

[jgl07]

A red herring I think Sean.

If all teams started at 40, of course their combined average at the end of the season would be 45.

Not it would be nearer 47 points because bonus points are included.

 

If they make it, say 42 or 40 then perhaps one or two CL teams could pick up some decent riders to help them make the move which I think goes some way to answering Lioness's points. Has this been tried before? If so, what actually happened and did the league grow? It would, of course be a waste of time and talent if it didn't.

Yes it was tried year after year in the late 1990s with figures of 41 and 43 points. It had no noticable effect on the strength of the Premier League.

 

What it did produce was average fiddling with teams leaving out middle order riders and stuffing the bottom end with no hopers. When the first averages were issued and certain riders had massaged their averages down, out went the three pointers and in came middle order reiders from the out of work pool.

 

The PL was very unatable at the time with lots of uncertainty about which tracks would run often until just before the season started. The PL had around 13 or 14 tracks at the time.

 

Since the decision to fix the points limit at 45 the PL has had stability and has also become financially more secure. This has been reflected in its growth to 18 tracks.

 

The Pl has become too big. A few tracks dropping down might help the likes of Mildenhall, Wimbledon and Boston to create a third division.

[Mylor]

Thanks Lioness/jgl.

I am now a goodly bit wiser.

[Phil]

One of the problems I find with speedway is too often you have to break teams up, if it went to 40 points then it would make it even bigger of a problem.

 

More riders might become available at the end of the season and some teams would start throwing silly money to try and get them, which would result in costs going up!

 

On the other hand it could depend on the rules for doubling up / down but if the likes of Shields, Stead, Harris, Stoney, Gjedde, Kylmakorpi, (names just used as examples!!) who are doing alright in the EL moved up permanently. Then there is going to be less top heat leaders about. Some teams might even struggle to get to 45 points.

[Midnight_Lady]

To me it's simple. There are 90 points in a match. Two teams take part in said match therefore 45 points is the correct figure for averages and team building to make that match as balanced as possible.

 

It's a fallacy people/promoters thinking that lowering the average will save them financially :? It will also put many riders out of work :x

[jgl07]

On the other hand it could depend on the rules for doubling up / down but if the likes of Shields, Stead, Harris, Stoney, Gjedde, Kylmakorpi, (names just used as examples!!) who are doing alright in the EL moved up permanently. Then there is going to be less top heat leaders about. Some teams might even struggle to get to 45 points.

Highly unlikely.

 

There are plenty of Swedish and Danish riders who might be keen to have a crack at PL racing on a 9.00 point average. There will always be riders squeezed out of the EL who could drop down.

 

The whole thing looks like a cock-up attempt by EL apologists to try and undermine the PL and 'bounce' tracks into moving up to the EL. It will not work.

[Gary]

45 points. No question. Even 46 wouldn't hurt. There are enough 2nd string riders out of work now or riding in the farce of a Conference League. It may also stop the 'sandbagging' of averages toards the end of the season by riders to ensure their team place for the following year.

 

I am not having a go at the CL racing, just the farcical rules that allow Mark Burrows, Neil Collins and Andy Smith ride at that level but not riders like Ritchie Hawkins.

 

I still think the way forward is to let the CL become a professional division (including allowing 15 year olds to race) and young riders blooded in a more organised, respected and officially recognised Youth Development League, run in the second half of main meetings.

[simon]

Should the Premier League points limit stay at 45 or drop to 40.

 

As the decision is being made for no other reason that of so called reducing the costs logic plays no part in the farce of going as low as 40. All the promoters in favour of 40 want is a pool of unemployed riders available to force wages down. Such thinking should have gone out years ago.

 

A 40 point limit will just reduce the quality of the PL and put more cheap wobblers into the league. If their are teams that cant afford to build to 45 in the PL then they should drop to the CL

 

Yep its not going to work never has done never will. the idera that the PL gets nearer the EL will get wiped out by this idear as well Typically Tim Stone seems to be one of the six :evil:

[Kevin Meynell]

The points limit should never be less than 46 points with bonus or 42 points without bonus. Those are equilibriums to which averages will always return, and anything less means kicking a few middle-order riders out of the sport in favour of 3.00-point numpties. The only exception is when the league increases in size, and you need to redistribute riders to the new teams coming in, but that should only happen for one season.

 

Personally, I'd favour a points limit slightly higher than the equilibrum to reward promoters with initiative, and to prevent the wholesale destruction of successful teams (and particularly high-placed teams that don't actually win anything). Something like 48 points with bonus would be reasonable.

[TonyM]

Have to agree Kevin 46 or 42 as a minimum

 

If the thought is of expansion then we really must look at splitting the division with (say) a 48-49 average for the top half and the 40 quoted for the lower half allowing those CL teams that wanted to make the step up lives a little easier

 

As with all things we will await the mess that is the EL to sort itself out and then the PL will have to pick up the pieces

[Guest Sir Lunchalot]

To me it's simple. There are 90 points in a match. Two teams take part in said match therefore 45 points is the correct figure for averages and team building to make that match as balanced as possible.

 

Not quite ML !! You are right in saying their are 90 points in a match BUT averages are always calculated on the basis of 4 rides a meeting (so if you had 5 rides and scored 2,2,2,2,2 your average would be 10/5 x 4 = 8]. Factor that into the equation and the break even (without bonus points) is 42.

 

The easiest way to think of it is (theoretically) at 4 rides per person per team adds up to 14 heats and 84 points.

[jgl07]

The easiest way to think of it is (theoretically) at 4 rides per person per team adds up to 14 heats and 84 points.

Add in the bonus points and it comes to 46.6667 for a seven man team.

 

I can demonstrate this using probability analysis if anyone doubts this.

 

In practise the aggregate average may be slightly higher as the better riders will tend to get more rides though tactical substitutions and reserve replacements.