World Champions That Never Were

[Parsloes 1928 nearly]

Olsen might have sneaked one in '72, otherwise his time comes more in 1975/77/78. (with Collins '76).

 

Way off with '77...: unquestionably Collins' year!!!

 

 

[lucifer sam]

Way off with '77...: unquestionably Collins' year!!!

 

Parsloes, but Collins was injured in late August. Could he have held off a charging Olsen in the final three / four rounds with a dodgy leg - I doubt it

 

Anyway, we have jumped ahead - we're on '64 at the moment.

 

All the best

Rob

 

[Parsloes 1928 nearly]

Parsloes, but Collins was injured in late August. Could he have held off a charging Olsen in the final three / four rounds with a dodgy leg - I doubt it

 

Hmm, but even with a shin bone newly smashed to pieces, PC still finished ahead of Olsen in the rain in Gothenberg...

Peter was different class in '77..: simply the greatest rider the world has EVER seen...

[speedyguy]

Hmm, but even with a shin bone newly smashed to pieces, PC still finished ahead of Olsen in the rain in Gothenberg...

Peter was different class in '77..: simply the greatest rider the world has EVER seen...

 

 

There is a respected school of thought that the greatest rider the world has EVER seen was Tom Farndon. And sound evidence is, I understand, on the way to prove that point.

[Parsloes 1928 nearly]

There is a respected school of thought that the greatest rider the world has EVER seen was Tom Farndon. And sound evidence is, I understand, on the way to prove that point.

 

Well in all honesty there ain't a SINGLE one of us (you including JH, even at your advanced years!! ) who ever saw the late Mr. Farndon ride so really how could we possibly comment...

[norbold]

It isn't easy to keep up the same level of motivation if you win 3,4 or 5 World titles on the trot.I'd say the fact Fundin lost a title or two along the way kept him motivated over that length of time

I've known Ove for a number of years now and I can't imagine his motivation ever faltering! Though I would go along with the idea that Briggo may have sneaked in in 1957 or 58. Not sure about Peter Craven in 1962?

 

 

Well in all honesty there ain't a SINGLE one of us (you including JH, even at your advanced years!! ) who ever saw the late Mr. Farndon ride so really how could we possibly comment...

 

You'll be convinced when you read the book speedyguy is referring to...

 

As for 1964 - 66, I'll go along with BOBBATH, but I agree with lucifer about 1967. Definitely Briggo's year. Mauger not quite there. 1968-70 Mauger. After that...well, Mauger could have dominated like Ove with 1971 and 1972 as well. As for 1973, without a doubt, Jerzy Szczakiel of course.

Edited September 11, 2009 by norbold

[Grachan]

Blimey, that's leaping ahead.

 

Mauger in 1967? I don't quite see that one. More likely Briggs.

 

Olsen would have won titles, but Mauger would have been difficult to handle over 11 rounds from 1968 through to 1974. Olsen might have sneaked one in '72, otherwise his time comes more in 1975/77/78. (with Collins '76).

 

EDIT: And I've leapt forward even more.

 

All the best

Rob

 

Wasn't it 1975 when Phil Crump emerged with his 4 valve? Nobody could get anywhere ner him, let alone beat him. He'd have had the championship almost wrapped up by the time the others caught up equipment wise. I'm pretty sure Crump would have won in 1975 - a time when he also still performed well in World Championships. Even after other riders got on board equal equipment he would still have been scoring decent points in the closing rounds.

 

Ivan Mauger has always claimed that he felt he was the best rider in the World in 1976 and Peter Collins was in 1977 and that they got those titles the wrong way round.

 

1973 - Ivan Mauger

1974 - Tough one! Mauger again?

1975 - Phil Crump

1976 - Ivan Mauger

1977 - Peter Collins

1978 - Ole Olsen

 

 

[briggo]

I think Michanek in '73 would have run Mauger very very close. He was absolutely supreme that year in the BL.

[lucifer sam]

I think Michanek in '73 would have run Mauger very very close. He was absolutely supreme that year in the BL.

 

And rubbish in the 1973 World Final. I don't think Michanek would have won a GP series - he was too inconsistent at world level, probably because he was so laid back.

 

He could string great scores together at league level, but was a bit hit and miss on the world stage. Probably the Leigh Adams of his day.

 

All the best

Rob

 

[BOBBATH]

I think Michanek would have been better over a GP series than one off-he cleaned up practically every open meeting after 73 WF-I'll go with Briggs 67, but Michanek 73

[ianmartin]

Jerzy Szczakiel for 1973 - DEFINITELY!!

[arnieg]

Slow down! I go away for a few days and your on to 1977!

 

May I ask your rationale for this?

Re Lawson and 1951:

 

Ultimately it may only be an argument for Lawson being second to Young, but I feel I should make it as there is a case to be made:

 

Lawson topped both the league point scorers and averages for Division One (where of course we have no record for Young):

 

Top Points: Lawson 324, Hunt 299, N Parker 289, M Craven 287, R Moore 286, Rigg 285

Averages: Lawson 10.32, Moore 10.08, Hunt 9.62, F Williams 9.52, N Parker 9.40, Rigg 9.40

 

Results in the Final Qualifying Round of the World Championships: Lawson 25, Young 23 (Top qualifyers: Biggs 29, Waterman 27, Hunt 26, Moore 25)

 

Open Meetings on League One tracks: Lawson won open meetings at Belle Vue, Harringay, New Cross, West Ham and Wimbledon. Nobody else won more than two (excluding World Champ QRs). Young won the Tom Farndon memorial (Lawson was second)

 

The World Final preview edition of Speedway News carried the following predictions:

Morgan: Waterman, Lawson, Biggs

Went: Lawson, Biggs, Young

 

Against that the case for Young is that he won the World Final, topped the Stenners World rankings

(1 Young, 2 Waterman, Lawson, Moore), and out scored Lawson in the test series (see below) and dominated Division 2 - although Tommy Miller did take the D2 match race championship off him in August)

 

England v Australia Test Series - Leading Scorers (inc bonus):

Young 70, Lawson 62, Biggs 54, Moore 43 (all 5 matches), (you can see why Australia won - top Englisman was Split Waterman with 42 from 4 tests.

[lucifer sam]

Jerzy Szczakiel for 1973 - DEFINITELY!!

 

But as the fifth best Pole, he wouldn't have got into the GP series in the first place.

 

All the best

Rob

 

[iris123]

But as the fifth best Pole, he wouldn't have got into the GP series in the first place.

 

All the best

Rob

But you were assuming Jack Young would have been in the 51 GPs.How many British riders were in the series and would he have been in with a serious chance of a WC? To say he would have qualified is putting to much trust in stats maybe.I reckon if we do something else.....pretend we didn't have a GP series and look at stats we would probably be saying Gollob and/or Adams would have won a GP series because of their constistency looking at league averages and all.......but it didn't happen.I'd say it is very risky to assume Young would have been in the 51 series........anyway,i only wanted to know where these GPs were being held back in the 30s,40s and 50s

[lucifer sam]

But you were assuming Jack Young would have been in the 51 GPs.How many British riders were in the series and would he have been in with a serious chance of a WC? To say he would have qualified is putting to much trust in stats maybe.I reckon if we do something else.....pretend we didn't have a GP series and look at stats we would probably be saying Gollob and/or Adams would have won a GP series because of their constistency looking at league averages and all.......but it didn't happen.I'd say it is very risky to assume Young would have been in the 51 series........anyway,i only wanted to know where these GPs were being held back in the 30s,40s and 50s

 

Jack Young had a pretty fine year in 1950 - his peformance in the World Final certainly suggests he would have breezed through the 1950 GP challenge and into the 1951 GP series.

 

And yes league consistency has to be backed by something else and that's whay Michanek would not have been the GP champion in '73 - his performances on the world stage were not good enough.

 

All the GPs from 1928 to 1956 were held in the UK, with the exception of one Aussie GP in the early fifties that cost the promoters a packet and was not repeated. Following Fundin's GP win in 1956, the first GP in Sweden was held in 1957 and the Swedes then had around 2 to 3 rounds of the 11-round series. The 1960s saw the GP become truly cosmopolitan with rounds spreading across Europe.

 

So by 1965, the competition would have been Europe-wide, including a round in Russia and a couple of others behing the Iron Curtain. In which case, would Igor Plechanov been 1965 World Champion?

 

All the best

Rob

Edited September 11, 2009 by lucifer sam

[iris123]

So by 1965, the competition would have been Europe-wide, including a round in Russia and a couple of others behing the Iron Curtain. In which case, would Igor Plechanov been 1965 World Champion?

 

All the best

Rob

Emphatically yes Beat Emil by 45 years to the title

[norbold]

Slow down! I go away for a few days and your on to 1977!

 

 

Re Lawson and 1951:

 

Ultimately it may only be an argument for Lawson being second to Young, but I feel I should make it as there is a case to be made:

 

Lawson topped both the league point scorers and averages for Division One (where of course we have no record for Young):

 

Top Points: Lawson 324, Hunt 299, N Parker 289, M Craven 287, R Moore 286, Rigg 285

Averages: Lawson 10.32, Moore 10.08, Hunt 9.62, F Williams 9.52, N Parker 9.40, Rigg 9.40

 

Results in the Final Qualifying Round of the World Championships: Lawson 25, Young 23 (Top qualifyers: Biggs 29, Waterman 27, Hunt 26, Moore 25)

 

Open Meetings on League One tracks: Lawson won open meetings at Belle Vue, Harringay, New Cross, West Ham and Wimbledon. Nobody else won more than two (excluding World Champ QRs). Young won the Tom Farndon memorial (Lawson was second)

 

The World Final preview edition of Speedway News carried the following predictions:

Morgan: Waterman, Lawson, Biggs

Went: Lawson, Biggs, Young

 

Against that the case for Young is that he won the World Final, topped the Stenners World rankings

(1 Young, 2 Waterman, Lawson, Moore), and out scored Lawson in the test series (see below) and dominated Division 2 - although Tommy Miller did take the D2 match race championship off him in August)

 

England v Australia Test Series - Leading Scorers (inc bonus):

Young 70, Lawson 62, Biggs 54, Moore 43 (all 5 matches), (you can see why Australia won - top Englisman was Split Waterman with 42 from 4 tests.

Good call, arnie and well supported. The problem as I see it is that Youngie was in the Second Division so never had a chance to match Lawson in first division averages or rankings. Also, do you know how many of the open meetings he was in on first division tracks?

 

Youngie was a class act though. He was undoubtedly the best in the world in 1952 and 1953. There is also good reason to think he was best in the world in 1954 too, although we seem to have given the 1954 GP to Ronnie Moore. In fact, having revisited the year, I think my vote would go to Young for 1954.

 

Given a full run of GPs in 1951 against top riders I think Young's class would have told and he would have won it. That is assuming he actually qualified. But I'll go along with lucifer sam's view that he would have qualified through the 1950 GP Challenge.

[iris123]

I think Copenhagen and Hamburg have a good call for hosting GPs in the 1928 onwards season.Hamburg was accomodating 25,000+ crowds at the time and being run by the Preston promoter,who was also running Copenhagen.Local rider Alfred rumrich must have been in with a chance of a WC

 

 

[Parsloes 1928 nearly]

And yes league consistency has to be backed by something else and that's whay Michanek would not have been the GP champion in '73 - his performances on the world stage were not good enough.

 

No - you're completely wrong about Michanek. He WAS supreme in '73 and - in this 'game' - would clearly have won a GP series that year.

Don't know where you get this idea from that he was weak in the big events. He won several World championships and major WC rounds - at Pairs, WTC and Long Track. As well as bouncing back from, yes, a very disappointing WF in Poland to win convincingly in '74 and finish runner-up in '75: dropping just two points out of ten WF rides in those two years!

 

Ivan Mauger has always claimed that he felt he was the best rider in the World in 1976 and Peter Collins was in 1977 and that they got those titles the wrong way round.

 

1977 was certainly PC's year but he was also dominant in '76 - including beating Mauger in the Inter-Continental Final: PC beating Mauger in a Wembley run-off as he had in '74 too.. Ivan's deluding himself to think he was the best rider in the world in '76..: he knows he 100% certainly wasn't in '77 and so thinks that he can theorise about '76 and get away with it... he can't!!

 

I know we're not there yet but to me GP wise, it would've been Michanek in '73; too close to call between Michanek & PC in '74; and then a shoo-in for Collins in '75 through to '78.

[iris123]

And i think Paris would have had a good chance of a GP.It was running it's own World Final during the 30s.I think back then in the 20s and 30s speedway was pretty international.The riders would travel around Europe.Then after the war it seemed to because of the war that all went until the 50s again.Ginger Lees,Eric Langton,Max Grosskreutz and Dicky Case are among the riders that raced in Hamburg and presumably also in Copenhagen