norbold Posted September 9, 2009 Report Share Posted September 9, 2009 The best guide we have would be the early World Team Cups I suppose. 1960 Goeteborg S won by Sweden 1961 Wroclaw PL won by Poland 1962 Slany CZ won by Sweden 1963 Vienna A won by Sweden 1964 Abensberg D won by Sweden 1965 Kempten D won by Poland 1966 Wroclaw PL won by Poland So Ove was able to lead his team to victory in Sweden, Czechoslovakia, Austria and Germany. So Mmaybe if the GPs had been spread around he wouldn't have done so badly either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iris123 Posted September 9, 2009 Report Share Posted September 9, 2009 The best guide we have would be the early World Team Cups I suppose. 1960 Goeteborg S won by Sweden 1961 Wroclaw PL won by Poland 1962 Slany CZ won by Sweden 1963 Vienna A won by Sweden 1964 Abensberg D won by Sweden 1965 Kempten D won by Poland 1966 Wroclaw PL won by Poland So Ove was able to lead his team to victory in Sweden, Czechoslovakia, Austria and Germany. So Mmaybe if the GPs had been spread around he wouldn't have done so badly either. 60 +62 i will give you.But in Vienna and Abensberg Ove wasn't really the force behind the Swedish wins.And in Germany was outscored by Plechanov for instance.But neither Vienna or Abensberg were behind the iron curtain anyway Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lucifer sam Posted September 9, 2009 Report Share Posted September 9, 2009 (edited) Briggo maybe. Norbold, Briggo's strongest claim appears to be 1958. So could he have beaten Fundin over a 11-round GP series in 1958? I'm not so sure, Fundin was still pretty hot that year. In fact, Fundin looks completely unstoppable from 1956 to 1961. Briggo would be my favourite for 1966-1967 (and probably 1964 & 1965 as well), but we haven't quite got there yet. And what about Peter Craven and Bjorn Knutsson - two giants of the sport, but would they have been World Champion under a GP series? Most likely years seem to 1957 or 1962 for Craven, or 1961 or 1962 for Knutsson (and also 1964 & 1965 for Knutsson, but again we haven't quite gone there ). Actually 1962 looks like a chink in Fundin's armour, he finished just seventh in the NL averages. It's true handicapping was introduced that year, but it seems to have slowed down Knutsson and Craven much less than Fundin. I believe Fundin suffered a broken leg during 1962 as well. Therefore I plump for Fundin for 1956 to 1961 and also 1963, but Peter Craven for 1962. A slightly sentimental choice perhaps, but there you go. What are other people's thoughts for 1956 to 1963? All the best Rob Edited September 9, 2009 by lucifer sam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norbold Posted September 10, 2009 Report Share Posted September 10, 2009 (edited) I do think iris has a point we shouldn't overlook in all this. If the GPs were held all over Europe like they are today, Igor Plechanov must have had a good chance in the early 60s as well. Maybe he would have won 1962! I also think that Bjorn Knutson would have done better under the GP system than he did under the one-off as he was very a nervous sort and didn't give of his best on the big night. Maybe under a GP system this wouldn't have happened. Edited August 25, 2014 by norbold Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lucifer sam Posted September 10, 2009 Report Share Posted September 10, 2009 I do think iris has a point we shouldn't overlook in all this. If the GPs were held all over Europe like they are today, Igor Plechanov must have had a good chance in the early 60s as well. Maybe he would have won 1962! I also think that Bjorn Knutson would have done better under the GP system than he did under the one-off as he was very a nervous sort and didn't give of his best on the nig night. Maybe under a GP system this wouldn't have happened. Norbold, Knutsson seemed to cope quite well with the nerves in one-off finals - he won it once and finished second twice. There's no doubt from 1961, he was a real force. But I think his peak was in 1964 and 1965 and we'll come to those years shortly. Plechanov's best year also seems to be somewhere between 1964 to 1967 - I think 1962 would have been a little bit too early for him. I'm nailed my colours to the mast for 1956 to 1963, with Fundin champion for 1956 to 1961 & 1963 and Craven for 1962. Do people agree or disagree with that? All the best Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOBBATH Posted September 10, 2009 Report Share Posted September 10, 2009 I'd say Fundin for 62 as well-agree with unbroken run for Ove 56 thru 63 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norbold Posted September 10, 2009 Report Share Posted September 10, 2009 Plechanov's best year also seems to be somewhere between 1964 to 1967 - I think 1962 would have been a little bit too early for him. Yes, I agree. I think there is no doubt that Ove was the best throughout the years 1956-63, but it's just impossible to think of him winning it every year. As has been said before, bad refereeing decisions, injury, engine failures could mean enough to lose it especially if Briggo was breathing down his neck say in 1958. But, if I had to go with a backwards prediction it would be Ove all 8 years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iris123 Posted September 10, 2009 Report Share Posted September 10, 2009 Yes, I agree. I think there is no doubt that Ove was the best throughout the years 1956-63, but it's just impossible to think of him winning it every year. As has been said before, bad refereeing decisions, injury, engine failures could mean enough to lose it especially if Briggo was breathing down his neck say in 1958. But, if I had to go with a backwards prediction it would be Ove all 8 years. Glad you see my point Norbold.And i think you are right.It is impossible to think Ove would have won all through those years.Recent experience with Rickardsson shows that even if you are the best in the world other factors come into play to stop you making a clean sweep year after year.Plus i think Ronnie would have won at least one World Championship no matter what system...... And Plechanov would have won one as well.But i am sure you will come to that soon enough Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norbold Posted September 10, 2009 Report Share Posted September 10, 2009 Glad you see my point Norbold.And i think you are right.It is impossible to think Ove would have won all through those years.Recent experience with Rickardsson shows that even if you are the best in the world other factors come into play to stop you making a clean sweep year after year.Plus i think Ronnie would have won at least one World Championship no matter what system...... And Plechanov would have won one as well.But i am sure you will come to that soon enough Didn't we have Ronnie for 1954 and 55? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iris123 Posted September 10, 2009 Report Share Posted September 10, 2009 (edited) Didn't we have Ronnie for 1954 and 55? Missed that bit.I read about the pre-war years and then thought the consensus was Jack Young was about to dominate.......then nodded off Good on you.I agree with that bit at least Edited September 10, 2009 by iris123 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lucifer sam Posted September 10, 2009 Report Share Posted September 10, 2009 (edited) Recent experience with Rickardsson shows that even if you are the best in the world other factors come into play to stop you making a clean sweep year after year. Yes, but was Rickardsson as good as Fundin? Probably not. Fundin probably would have won all 8 titles from the 1956 to 1963, but I'm going for all his "bad luck" to come at once in 1962 and therefore allow Peter Craven a title. (Unfortunately it looks like no-one else is backing Craven for a title and the greatest ever Brit is going to finish without a championship ) All the best Rob Edited September 10, 2009 by lucifer sam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lucifer sam Posted September 10, 2009 Report Share Posted September 10, 2009 (edited) And (while the discussion continues regarding 1956 to 1963), we move onto 1964 and 1965. IMO, the leading contenders are: * Barry Briggs * Bjorn Knutsson * Igor Plechanov * Ove Fundin I'm tempted to go for Knutsson in 1964 and Plechanov in 1965, but it's much less clear cut than '56 to '63 (Briggo is my man for 1966 & 1967, but I feel there's plenty to discuss for '64 & '65 first). All the best Rob Edited September 10, 2009 by lucifer sam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iris123 Posted September 10, 2009 Report Share Posted September 10, 2009 Yes, but was Rickardsson as good as Fundin? Probably not. All the best Rob In a way, i am not sure that is the right question?Were Rickardssons opponents as good as him is more relevant.I'd say Fundin had far better opponents than Rickardsson so would be at least as likely to lose a title or 2 even in a GP series.It isn't easy to keep up the same level of motivation if you win 3,4 or 5 World titles on the trot.I'd say the fact Fundin lost a title or two along the way kept him motivated over that length of time Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lucifer sam Posted September 10, 2009 Report Share Posted September 10, 2009 In a way, i am not sure that is the right question?Were Rickardssons opponents as good as him is more relevant.I'd say Fundin had far better opponents than Rickardsson so would be at least as likely to lose a title or 2 even in a GP series.It isn't easy to keep up the same level of motivation if you win 3,4 or 5 World titles on the trot.I'd say the fact Fundin lost a title or two along the way kept him motivated over that length of time Iris, I see your point. And the competition was fierce in Fundin's period. So at which point would his motivation slipped? 1956 is his first title - so his motivation would have slipped around 60/61? But then again 1960 or 1961 were his peak years. You know, it's all pointing towards him losing the 1962 title to Peter Craven. (I'm still arguing on Craven's behalf ). All the best Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iris123 Posted September 10, 2009 Report Share Posted September 10, 2009 Iris, I see your point. And the competition was fierce in Fundin's period. So at which point would his motivation slipped? 1956 is his first title - so his motivation would have slipped around 60/61? But then again 1960 or 1961 were his peak years. You know, it's all pointing towards him losing the 1962 title to Peter Craven. (I'm still arguing on Craven's behalf ). All the best Rob Yes,maybe 1960/61 were his peak years,but.......what you are attempting to do is re-write history,but without the consequences.You can't change one thing,but keep everything else the same as it was.What i am saying is if there was a GP system then maybe after winning the title 3,4 or 5 times 1960/61 wouldn't have been his peak years.Maybe he would have found it hard to get so motivated and stay on top of his game over such a long period,like Crump,Rickardsson and Nicki have found. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lucifer sam Posted September 10, 2009 Report Share Posted September 10, 2009 but.......what you are attempting to do is re-write history,but without the consequences.You can't change one thing,but keep everything else the same as it was. Indeed, but otherwise the whole thing becomes more complicated than an episode of Quantum Leap. All the best Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iris123 Posted September 10, 2009 Report Share Posted September 10, 2009 Indeed, but otherwise the whole thing becomes more complicated than an episode of Quantum Leap. All the best Rob I think Briggo would have taken a couple of titles under a GP system.Don't know what years,but Ove would have faltered and Briggo would have given it a hell of a go.He was pretty focused i'd say,talented enough as well and a born winner.I can't see Briggo's name not being on the World Championship list once or twice at least no matter what system.And that has little to do with one of my family spannering for Mirac and Briggo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOBBATH Posted September 10, 2009 Report Share Posted September 10, 2009 How about Knutsson in 64 and 65 and Briggs in 66, Mauger 67 thru 70,Olsen in 71 and 72 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lucifer sam Posted September 10, 2009 Report Share Posted September 10, 2009 I think Briggo would have taken a couple of titles under a GP system.Don't know what years,but Ove would have faltered and Briggo would have given it a hell of a go.He was pretty focused i'd say,talented enough as well and a born winner. Hmmm, good point. I did have Briggo down for GP titles, but only from the mid-sixties onwards. Would it have been that long before his first title? After all, he more-or-less pushed Fundin off the track in the 1957 World Final run-off. He wanted it - and badly. I've changed my mind. I'm going for Fundin in 1956 & 1957, Briggo in 1958 (pushing Fundin off the track in the final GP ), and Fundin for 1959 to 1963 (sorry Peter Craven ) All the best Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lucifer sam Posted September 10, 2009 Report Share Posted September 10, 2009 (edited) How about Knutsson in 64 and 65 and Briggs in 66, Mauger 67 thru 70,Olsen in 71 and 72 Blimey, that's leaping ahead. Mauger in 1967? I don't quite see that one. More likely Briggs. Olsen would have won titles, but Mauger would have been difficult to handle over 11 rounds from 1968 through to 1974. Olsen might have sneaked one in '72, otherwise his time comes more in 1975/77/78. (with Collins '76). EDIT: And I've leapt forward even more. All the best Rob Edited September 10, 2009 by lucifer sam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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