World Champions That Never Were

[The White Knight]

Going off topic slightly, I was told that Briggs gave crumpie snr the advice in 75 to hold back his street 4 valve for the later world champs and was sure he would have won it. Not such if it's been mentioned elsewhere

It didn't work though.

[longlivefrankie]

It didn't work though.

He didn't hold it back he used from the start of the season that was the point, whether it would have worked who knows

 

I guess he needed the money like us all

[BluPanther]

Leigh Adams, Phil Crump and John Louis are all stand out's imo, and i personally believe that the late Billy Sanders would have won a couple of titles...

[The White Knight]

'Split' Waterman.

[waiheke1]

One or two I saw who never made it who I rated highly

 

Scott Autrey

Tommy Jansson

Kelvin Tatum

John Louis

Dave Jessup

Phil Crump

Autrey would have been a contender in 78/79, if not for his ban - still dont think hecwould have won it.

Jansson - who knows what he could have achieved

Tatum - very good rider, but a notch below the kikes of carter and jessup who didnt win it either - not genuine workd champ material in my view

Louis - similar to tatum, not quite goid enough imho, and due to his late start wasnt near the top for as long

Crump - a real contender in a gp system only in 75 with his 4-valve, otherwise a notch below the top level, and had a pretty disappointing world final record.

All very good riders, but none true world champion matetial in my view

and i personally believe that the late Billy Sanders would have won a couple of titles...

I dont tbh. He had an excellent world final record, without ever looking like winning a final. Under a gp system his best chance would have been 83, but I still dont think he would have made the podium. cant think of any major individual meeting that he won?

[stratton]

The Daily express spring classic at Wimbledon i think? the couple of years before he went he was on fire really got it together.I believe he would of been even stronger in the GPS.

[waiheke1]

The Daily express spring classic at Wimbledon i think? the couple of years before he went he was on fire really got it together.I believe he would of been even stronger in the GPS.

Kind of proves my point if that's all that springs to mind. 84 was probably his big chance - he was riding better in 83 but not sure any rider could have beaten egon thst afternoon. As it is not sure he did anything to convince me he could have broken the Danish dominance - wheras penhall, sigalos, lee and carter were all capable of having done so if not for the premature ends to their careers.

[BluPanther]

Kind of proves my point if that's all that springs to mind. 84 was probably his big chance - he was riding better in 83 but not sure any rider could have beaten egon thst afternoon. As it is not sure he did anything to convince me he could have broken the Danish dominance - wheras penhall, sigalos, lee and carter were all capable of having done so if not for the premature ends to their careers.

Billy was still improving and getting stronger before he left us, i witnessed this every week at Ipswich, and i have no doubt he would have been an individual World Champion..

[stratton]

I was a big Phil Crump fan but i also loved Sanders as a rider,he seemed to get more consistent as he got older.After 83 he followed it up with another good 84 season,and before the tragedy in 85 was averaging 11.53.WIth three full maximums so he was in good fettle riding wise then,and lets not forget he was only thirty years old the shame of it was i felt he really believed he could be world champion.Great memories of Billy i was lucky see him race quite alot ,not as much as Blupanther but i like him believed he could of become world champion.

Edited August 27, 2014 by sidney

[waiheke1]

Billy was still improving and getting stronger before he left us, i witnessed this every week at Ipswich, and i have no doubt he would have been an individual World Champion..

You obviously saw him more than I did, but in all competitions his results were worse in 84 than 83. Clearly started 85 on fire, but rode only a handful of meetings. Personally I think he was better suited to world finsls, where he generally lifted himself, rather than gps. All conjecture and opinion,but personally I think there were better riders in the same era who also failed to win the title.

[stratton]

You obviously saw him more than I did, but in all competitions his results were worse in 84 than 83. Clearly started 85 on fire, but rode only a handful of meetings. Personally I think he was better suited to world finsls, where he generally lifted himself, rather than gps. All conjecture and opinion,but personally I think there were better riders in the same era who also failed to win the title.

I think the age thing is really important here, he was always world class on his day and held his own easily in world company.But he really got his act together, and i feel he would of been strong in a GP format as Crump at his peak certainly would of as well Sanders for me had as much chance as say Carter of winning a world title.

[waiheke1]

Carter would have been in with a real chance in a gp series in 82, arguably 85 as well, and a medalist in 81 (if he was in the series). In 83 he would have arguably had about the same chance of sanders for a medal. I can't think of any year where you could argue sanders was likely to have taken the crown, though appreciate he still could have had another 5 years at the top. For me though, I'd rate him just behind carter, sigalos, s moran, knudsen and jessup - very good riders of that era who didn't win a title.

[stratton]

Carter would have been in with a real chance in a gp series in 82, arguably 85 as well, and a medalist in 81 (if he was in the series). In 83 he would have arguably had about the same chance of sanders for a medal. I can't think of any year where you could argue sanders was likely to have taken the crown, though appreciate he still could have had another 5 years at the top. For me though, I'd rate him just behind carter, sigalos, s moran, knudsen and jessup - very good riders of that era who didn't win a title.

I personally would rate Sanders only behind Sigalos in that group,Carter for me never showed me the consistency or temperament to ever win over say twelve rounds.A one off final maybe,certainly at Hyde Rd but over a period not so sure. Lee,Sigalos,Sanders for me all would of been a threat to the Danes,Carter i am not so sure i recon he could of been like a KK of today similar brilliant on his day. Edited August 28, 2014 by sidney

[waiheke1]

I personally would rate Sanders only behind Sigalos in that group,Carter for me never showed me the consistency or temperament to ever win over say twelve rounds.A one off final maybe,certainly at Hyde Rd but over a period not so sure. Lee,Sigalos,Sanders for me all would of been a threat to the Danes,Carter i am not so sure i recon he could of been like a KK of today similar brilliant on his day.

Not sure you can accuse carter of lacking consistency. Look at 82. Donestically averaged over 11, and won blrc. He finished on the podium in all four meetings qualifying for the world final. He was top point scorer in tests fir England agsinst both usa and denmark. Scored a max in the wtc inter continental final. He was the most consistent rider in the world that year. Edited August 28, 2014 by waihekeaces1

[The White Knight]

I honestly believe that if Phil Crump had held his 'Four Valve' back until the World Final - he would have won it. He rode it too early.

 

I thought Phil Crump was a superb Rider.

[BluPanther]

I honestly believe that if Phil Crump had held his 'Four Valve' back until the World Final - he would have won it. He rode it too early.

 

I thought Phil Crump was a superb Rider.

Your right WK, Phil was superb and as hard as nails on the track. His battles with Tiger Louis at Foxhall were great races to witness, and no holds barred from two warriors of the shale...

[stratton]

Not sure you can accuse carter of lacking consistency. Look at 82. Donestically averaged over 11, and won blrc. He finished on the podium in all four meetings qualifying for the world final. He was top point scorer in tests fir England agsinst both usa and denmark. Scored a max in the wtc inter continental final. He was the most consistent rider in the world that year.

For one year only in a few other years in the test matches he was a mixed bag.i know he was unlucky with injury bigtime.But he never struck me as being a GP type,good at times but overall was never willing to be second best pick up points and move on to the next race.He was unlucky in 82 but dress it up as much as you want his temperament let him him down if he had settled for second he might have got a run off.? I was a big fan of his but in his era Lee,Nielsen,Gundersen,Penhall,Sigalos, i rated ahead of him and Sanders and Moran would be in the mix and most of them i have named i believe would of been or were better than him over a GP Series.

[waiheke1]

In 81 and 82 carter was better than all those you named (except penhall obviously). The danes overtook him in 83 and went on to dominate. Lee was clearly vastly more talented than carter. Carter was better than sigalos 81-83, but sigalos started 84 on fire, before both had thir seasons curtailed - siggy was some talent, and could well have become world champ - but on the seasons they raced I think carter would have finished ahesd every year. S moran I rate neck and neck with carter, in 84 he would have challrnged the danes in a gp series, as would both he and kenny in 85. Sanders had a couple of very good years 79/80 and agsin 83/84. But though all the above riders were 5 plus years younger, I would argue they were all riding at a better level than billy.

[stratton]

In 81 and 82 carter was better than all those you named (except penhall obviously). The danes overtook him in 83 and went on to dominate. Lee was clearly vastly more talented than carter. Carter was better than sigalos 81-83, but sigalos started 84 on fire, before both had thir seasons curtailed - siggy was some talent, and could well have become world champ - but on the seasons they raced I think carter would have finished ahesd every year. S moran I rate neck and neck with carter, in 84 he would have challrnged the danes in a gp series, as would both he and kenny in 85. Sanders had a couple of very good years 79/80 and agsin 83/84. But though all the above riders were 5 plus years younger, I would argue they were all riding at a better level than billy.

Cant agree with that Sigalos was brilliant in some of the tests and the one i saw beat Nielsen from the back in the open at White City for me would beat Carter six times out of ten.Penhall is the key here if he had stayed around i don't believe the Danes would have one as many titles and history could of been written differently who knows.

[wealdstone]

Brian Crutcher