World Champions That Never Were

[waiheke1]

^{muddled? Just saying that if you had been right about the twenty extra titles, this would have meant those four riders winning every year from 1951-1988, and that I was looking forward to you explaining your logic for the above years as to why they would ahve been champion? Not sure what was unclear?}

^{If you don't think Moore would have won in 54, who do you think?}

^{Nielsen would have still won GPs if Penhall/Lee had stuck around, though not as many as 10 I would expect. Penhall in 81 was as consistent as Nielsen at his peak, I can't think of a season in which Lee was as consistently good as the Nielsen of the last 80s. If anything, the presence of Penhall/Lee in GPs may well have meant Gundersen was never crowned WC.}

[stratton]

^{muddled? Just saying that if you had been right about the twenty extra titles, this would have meant those four riders winning every year from 1951-1988, and that I was looking forward to you explaining your logic for the above years as to why they would ahve been champion? Not sure what was unclear?}

^{If you don't think Moore would have won in 54, who do you think?}

^{Nielsen would have still won GPs if Penhall/Lee had stuck around, though not as many as 10 I would expect. Penhall in 81 was as consistent as Nielsen at his peak, I can't think of a season in which Lee was as consistently good as the Nielsen of the last 80s. If anything, the presence of Penhall/Lee in GPs may well have meant Gundersen was never crowned WC.}

I only did it from1955 , and you are right maybe Gundersen would not of won a title?(1977,78,79,80,81,83 i would say in my opinion Lee was a better rider than Nielsen 82 Lee was awful still averaged about 9.70.Those years of Lee and Penhall would of been good anough to compete with Nielsen i know Lee never really feared Hans, Penhall he said was his big danger.1984 till 1990 all NIELSEN I would say Erik would of had a job to stay with him over 11rounds.

[waiheke1]

well of course Lee/Penhall wouldn't have feared Hans, as Nielsen was nowhere near his peak when Lee/Penhall were at theirs (83 is the only year when Nielsen/Lee were anywhere near their peaks at the same time, and in both cases still about three/four years off their respective peaks).

You mention Lee's average, but he never averaged over 11, which Hans did countless times. In fact, I'm not sure Hans averaged below 10 any year in the 80s? ]

Without wanting to re-open the "natural talent" debate, I'd suggest Penhall/Lee were both more gifted than Hans (or possiblly just earlier developers), but neither produced the sustained excellence which he did (and which is the key under the GP system).

[Blackbird]

76 – Collins or Mauger

77 – Collins or Olsen

 

no way Mauger in 76 and Collins a million miles away the best in 77

[stratton]

no way Mauger in 76 and Collins a million miles away the best in 77

well of course Lee/Penhall wouldn't have feared Hans, as Nielsen was nowhere near his peak when Lee/Penhall were at theirs (83 is the only year when Nielsen/Lee were anywhere near their peaks at the same time, and in both cases still about three/four years off their respective peaks).

You mention Lee's average, but he never averaged over 11, which Hans did countless times. In fact, I'm not sure Hans averaged below 10 any year in the 80s? ]

Without wanting to re-open the "natural talent" debate, I'd suggest Penhall/Lee were both more gifted than Hans (or possiblly just earlier developers), but neither produced the sustained excellence which he did (and which is the key under the GP system).

When Nielsen got his 11 plus averages the level had dropped quite alot, then .And by the way Lee was not a old man when that joke ban happened 24/25 and at the end of 83 murdered Nielsen in the Pride of the east .Also you have got the word PEAK wrong because Penhall only had 5 years in Britain he would of improved his confidence sky high after winning his titles Penhall when he retired was more consistent than Hans.Nielsen would of never got a 11 plus average with a Penhall a fit Sigalos Lee Sanders Carter Gundersen Knudsen S,Moran around you overplay the word PEAK and figures.

[waiheke1]

no way Mauger in 76 and Collins a million miles away the best in 77

Note that that list is not neccesarily my view, but a summarry of other's thoughts on this thread. I agree Collins over Mauger, but don&;t think its clear cut. PC only beat him in a run-off in the Ic final, and but for a Mauger ef the Final itself would have gone to a run off.

77 - PC himself said that Olsen was the form rider early in the season, and of course PC would have had to ride on one leg for the last three or so meetings. He was able to produce an amazing performance on one leg in the final, but could he have done the same over three meetings? I remember Kenny Carter winning the B Final in 84 with a broken leg, qualifying comfortably enough from the Overseas final in the next round, but then finding the inter-continental a step too far - perhaps PC may have struggled too, the leg injury would have made it particularly tough to come from the back, and while Pc made every gate in the final, perhaps too much to imagine him gating well three meetings in a row? Despite that, my vote also goes to Collins, but only just over Olsen.

When Nielsen got his 11 plus averages the level had dropped quite alot, then .And by the way Lee was not a old man when that joke ban happened 24/25 and at the end of 83 murdered Nielsen in the Pride of the east .Also you have got the word PEAK wrong because Penhall only had 5 years in Britain he would of improved his confidence sky high after winning his titles Penhall when he retired was more consistent than Hans.Nielsen would of never got a 11 plus average with a Penhall a fit Sigalos Lee Sanders Carter Gundersen Knudsen S,Moran around you overplay the word PEAK and figures.

You don't think that whether a rider is at their peak (best, top of their game if you prefer those phrases) has a bearing on the outcome of their clashes with other riders? Penhall in 81 was riding as well as any rider in history, he may have been able to maintain that form, I'm not sure he would have improved on it. Nielsen averaged close to 11 in 83 when all those riders (bar Penhall) were around, he improved after that, and consistently beat Gundersen, S Moran and Knudsen when they were at their (here's that word again) peak. I'm confident he would have averaged over 11 even with those riders around.

Anyway its all speculation/opinions, no way to prove it one way or the other.

[stratton]

Note that that list is not neccesarily my view, but a summarry of other's thoughts on this thread. I agree Collins over Mauger, but don&;t think its clear cut. PC only beat him in a run-off in the Ic final, and but for a Mauger ef the Final itself would have gone to a run off.

77 - PC himself said that Olsen was the form rider early in the season, and of course PC would have had to ride on one leg for the last three or so meetings. He was able to produce an amazing performance on one leg in the final, but could he have done the same over three meetings? I remember Kenny Carter winning the B Final in 84 with a broken leg, qualifying comfortably enough from the Overseas final in the next round, but then finding the inter-continental a step too far - perhaps PC may have struggled too, the leg injury would have made it particularly tough to come from the back, and while Pc made every gate in the final, perhaps too much to imagine him gating well three meetings in a row? Despite that, my vote also goes to Collins, but only just over Olsen.

 

You don't think that whether a rider is at their peak (best, top of their game if you prefer those phrases) has a bearing on the outcome of their clashes with other riders? Penhall in 81 was riding as well as any rider in history, he may have been able to maintain that form, I'm not sure he would have improved on it. Nielsen averaged close to 11 in 83 when all those riders (bar Penhall) were around, he improved after that, and consistently beat Gundersen, S Moran and Knudsen when they were at their (here's that word again) peak. I'm confident he would have averaged over 11 even with those riders around.

Anyway its all speculation/opinions, no way to prove it one way or the other.

You only named 3 riders thats why he averaged 11.50 ish or over a number of times and god that was unbelievable .For a few years i and a couple mates went most weeks to Cowley and i can remember on one hand how many riders beat him. I would love to have the stats, if my memory serves me i remember Shirra and Holloway getting a 5.1 over him in a 3 team tourn Gundersen wiped the floor with him once he went through the card helmet as well i think? also Thorp , Blackbird, Knudsen K. Moran thats about it really he was like a machine .By the way Waihekeaces1 do you? think Lee if motivated and dad helping would of been a threat into his early 30s i do but i think he might of struggled a little with the new starting precedures.He could of conquered that i think,since i have been going at his best Lee was the quickest rider i ever saw ive noticed on his on nights he always had mega quick times.

[fatface]

i and a couple mates went most weeks to Cowley and i can remember on one hand how many riders beat him. I would love to have the stats, if my memory serves me i remember Shirra and Holloway getting a 5.1 over him in a 3 team tourn Gundersen wiped the floor with him once he went through the card helmet as well i think? also Thorp , Blackbird, Knudsen K. Moran thats about it really he was like a machine.

Team riding was never his forte though was it?

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tc8PBZPhx2k

[stratton]

Team riding was never his forte though was it?

 

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=Tc8PBZPhx2k

Morton was brilliant from the back who was the better From the back Mort or P.C? both superb at Hyde rd.

[waiheke1]

Morton was brilliant from the back who was the better From the back Mort or P.C? both superb at Hyde rd.

Simple.

PC was better in the 70s.

Mort was better in the 80s.

[speedyguy]

Ok i aint sure if this has ever been done and if it has i apologise. But being halfway through the "Tragedy" book about Kenny Carter i got thinking who people would class as the best rider never to actually be World Champion. So i was thinking that we could name who we think it was and if you wanted you could maybe put your own reason/thoughts/analysis as to why said rider never got their hands on the most sought after prize in speedway.

 

It must be Mike Bast (USA). A great in the same mould as Jack and Cordy Milne (he should also have been a world champion) and Wilbur Lamoreaux (another USA great who missed out on the title). Four all-time-greats but only Jack was a world champion.

[stratton]

It must be Mike Bast (USA). A great in the same mould as Jack and Cordy Milne (he should also have been a world champion) and Wilbur Lamoreaux (another USA great who missed out on the title). Four all-time-greats but only Jack was a world champion.

A great at Costa Mesa thats it, Graham Warren for me.

[fatface]

It must be Mike Bast (USA). A great in the same mould as Jack and Cordy Milne (he should also have been a world champion) and Wilbur Lamoreaux (another USA great who missed out on the title). Four all-time-greats but only Jack was a world champion.

I can't help but think you are doing this with your tongue firmly in your cheek.

 

But I will play along anyway. On another thread you even spoke about Mike Bast being in the world's all-time top 20 riders! So, can I be so bold to set you a little challenge? Here's 20 riders - in no particular order - that most would consider in or around the world's top 20 all-time. Pick any one you like and make a credible argument that Mike Bast was a better rider:

 

Ronnie Moore, Peter Craven, Ove Fundin, Barry Briggs, Ivan Mauger, Ole Olsen, Bruce Penhall, Tony Rickardsson, Erik Gundersen, Peter Collins, Hans Nielsen, Jack Young, Jason Crump, Tomasz Gollob, Anders Michanek, Greg Hancock, Per Jonsson, Michael Lee, Bjorn Knutsson, Sam Ermolenko

[stratton]

I can't help but think you are doing this with your tongue firmly in your cheek.

 

But I will play along anyway. On another thread you even spoke about Mike Bast being in the world's all-time top 20 riders! So, can I be so bold to set you a little challenge? Here's 20 riders - in no particular order - that most would consider in or around the world's top 20 all-time. Pick any one you like and make a credible argument that Mike Bast was a better rider:

 

Ronnie Moore, Peter Craven, Ove Fundin, Barry Briggs, Ivan Mauger, Ole Olsen, Bruce Penhall, Tony Rickardsson, Erik Gundersen, Peter Collins, Hans Nielsen, Jack Young, Jason Crump, Tomasz Gollob, Anders Michanek, Greg Hancock, Per Jonsson, Michael Lee, Bjorn Knutsson, Sam Ermolenko

Agree with all Falcace T. Jansson, Williams,Farndon Warren ,Sigalos,S.Moran that is my elite of all time.Bast i dont think would get in my top 50.

[lucifer sam]

But I will play along anyway. On another thread you even spoke about Mike Bast being in the world's all-time top 20 riders! So, can I be so bold to set you a little challenge? Here's 20 riders - in no particular order - that most would consider in or around the world's top 20 all-time. Pick any one you like and make a credible argument that Mike Bast was a better rider:

 

Ronnie Moore, Peter Craven, Ove Fundin, Barry Briggs, Ivan Mauger, Ole Olsen, Bruce Penhall, Tony Rickardsson, Erik Gundersen, Peter Collins, Hans Nielsen, Jack Young, Jason Crump, Tomasz Gollob, Anders Michanek, Greg Hancock, Per Jonsson, Michael Lee, Bjorn Knutsson, Sam Ermolenko

 

Falcace, good point well made - and your list doesn't even include: Bluey Wilkinson, Vic Duggan, Jan O Pedersen, Nicki Pedersen, Jack Parker, Leigh Adams, Igor Plechanov, Graham Warren, Tom Farndon or Vic Huxley. And that's just the tip of the iceberg.

 

Whether Mike Bast could have done a credible job riding in the British League is open for debate - I think he would have done. Of course we can't know for sure. Stating he is amongst the best 20 or even 50 best riders of all-time is stretching the bounds of credibility.

 

All the best

Rob

 

Agree with all Falcace T. Jansson, Williams,Farndon Warren ,Sigalos,S.Moran that is my elite of all time.Bast i dont think would get in my top 50.

Sidney, I agree - since 1928 there have been many greats. If Bast was as good as them, he would have made the Overseas Final a bit more.

 

All the best

Rob

[Parsloes 1928 nearly]

Falcace, good point well made - and your list doesn't even include: Bluey Wilkinson, Vic Duggan, Jan O Pedersen, Nicki Pedersen, Jack Parker, Leigh Adams, Igor Plechanov, Graham Warren, Tom Farndon or Vic Huxley. And that's just the tip of the iceberg.

 

Whether Mike Bast could have done a credible job riding in the British League is open for debate - I think he would have done. Of course we can't know for sure. Stating he is amongst the best 20 or even 50 best riders of all-time is stretching the bounds of credibility.

All the best

Rob

 

Indeed and don't forget Split Waterman, the only man other than Plechanov - I think I'm right in saying - to twice be a World Final runner up and yet never to have lifted the title at another time. To me those two, Plechanov & the peerless Squire Francis Waterman esquire are along with Vic Duggan the three who most deserve the title described in the title of this thread...

[iris123]

Indeed and don't forget Split Waterman, the only man other than Plechanov - I think I'm right in saying - to twice be a World Final runner up and yet never to have lifted the title at another time. To me those two, Plechanov & the peerless Squire Francis Waterman esquire are along with Vic Duggan the three who most deserve the title described in the title of this thread...

Yeah,but don't forget one the most naturally talented riders ever.Surely on decent equipment he fits the bill?

Edited January 25, 2012 by iris123

[Parsloes 1928 nearly]

Yeah,but don't forget one the most naturally talented riders ever.Surely on decent equipment he fits the bill?

 

:lol:

[speedyguy]

I can't help but think you are doing this with your tongue firmly in your cheek.

 

But I will play along anyway. On another thread you even spoke about Mike Bast being in the world's all-time top 20 riders! So, can I be so bold to set you a little challenge? Here's 20 riders - in no particular order - that most would consider in or around the world's top 20 all-time. Pick any one you like and make a credible argument that Mike Bast was a better rider:

 

Ronnie Moore, Peter Craven, Ove Fundin, Barry Briggs, Ivan Mauger, Ole Olsen, Bruce Penhall, Tony Rickardsson, Erik Gundersen, Peter Collins, Hans Nielsen, Jack Young, Jason Crump, Tomasz Gollob, Anders Michanek, Greg Hancock, Per Jonsson, Michael Lee, Bjorn Knutsson, Sam Ermolenko

 

 

Before I do, where's the likes of Lionel van Praag, Bluey Wilkosn, Lamoreaux, both Milnes and Jack Paerker for example?

[stratton]

Before I do, where's the likes of Lionel van Praag, Bluey Wilkosn, Lamoreaux, both Milnes and Jack Paerker for example?

Speedyguy who out of the cream, thats been named is Bast better than.?Dont get me wrong i liked Bast he was talented or was it natural? whatever.