salty Posted November 3, 2009 Report Share Posted November 3, 2009 Some of the missing years: 1973 - A.Michanek 1977 - M.Simmons 1978 - M.Lee 1979 - S.Autrey 1980 - P.Collins/H.Nielsen 1982 - K.Carter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norbold Posted November 3, 2009 Report Share Posted November 3, 2009 (edited) 1967: Barry Briggs 1976: John Louis Incidentally... 1936: Jack Parker 1937: Jack Milne 1938: Jack Milne Of those only Milne, in 1937, was World Champion the same year Edited November 3, 2009 by norbold Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grachan Posted November 3, 2009 Report Share Posted November 3, 2009 Pretty sure it was Barry Briggs who topped the averages in 1967. If not then maybe Charlie Monk? Think it was Briggs though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norbold Posted November 3, 2009 Report Share Posted November 3, 2009 Definitely Briggo. Barry: 11.05 Charlie Monk: 10.72 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lucifer sam Posted November 3, 2009 Report Share Posted November 3, 2009 (edited) Some of the missing years: 1973 - A.Michanek 1977 - M.Simmons 1978 - M.Lee 1979 - S.Autrey 1980 - P.Collins/H.Nielsen 1982 - K.Carter Salty - Iris was asking for riders who had done the World Championship / top of BL averages double. None of the above did that double. And it was PC who topped the 1980 averages - Nielsen missed out by a fraction (less than 0.01). But Nielsen then topped the averages from 1984 to 1990 inclusive, therefore surpassing Mauger's previous BL record, who topped the averages for 5 sucessvie seasons (plus an extra season in 1975). Prior to 1965, I'm sure Jack Young, Ronnie Moore and Ove Fundin did the double. How many riders did the following treble - World Champion / BLRC winner / top of BL averages. Briggs did in 1966, and Nielsen in 1986 & 1987. Any others? All the best Rob Edited November 3, 2009 by lucifer sam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norbold Posted November 3, 2009 Report Share Posted November 3, 2009 Salty - Iris was asking for riders who had done the World Championship / top of BL averages double. None of the above did that double. And it was PC who topped the 1980 averages - Nielsen missed out by a fraction (less than 0.01). But Nielsen then topped the averages from 1984 to 1990 inclusive, therefore surpassing Mauger's previous BL record, who topped the averages for 5 sucessvie seasons (plus an extra season in 1975). Prior to 1965, I'm sure Jack Young, Ronnie Moore and Ove Fundin did the double. How many riders did the following treble - World Champion / BLRC winner / top of BL averages. Briggs did in 1966, and Nielsen in 1986 & 1987. Any others? All the best Rob Just from memory, Ove Fundin certainly did it in 1960. Excuse me while I go off and consult the record books for the rest.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianmartin Posted November 3, 2009 Report Share Posted November 3, 2009 (edited) Just from memory, Ove Fundin certainly did it in 1960. Excuse me while I go off and consult the record books for the rest.... Hope you'll get back to us norbold. I am following this Thread with much interest. Edited November 3, 2009 by ianmartin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
salty Posted November 3, 2009 Report Share Posted November 3, 2009 Salty - Iris was asking for riders who had done the World Championship / top of BL averages double. None of the above did that double. And it was PC who topped the 1980 averages - Nielsen missed out by a fraction (less than 0.01). But Nielsen then topped the averages from 1984 to 1990 inclusive, therefore surpassing Mauger's previous BL record, who topped the averages for 5 sucessvie seasons (plus an extra season in 1975). Rob, I quoted the guys who topped the BL averages in response to Bobbath's post. "I know that Nigel Boocock topped the top div. averages in 1965-but who did it in the years you missed out Rob" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lucifer sam Posted November 3, 2009 Report Share Posted November 3, 2009 Rob, I quoted the guys who topped the BL averages in response to Bobbath's post. "I know that Nigel Boocock topped the top div. averages in 1965-but who did it in the years you missed out Rob" Salty, whoops, that'll teach me not to read the whole thread. All the best Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
salty Posted November 3, 2009 Report Share Posted November 3, 2009 Not a problem. Apology accepted etc etc As for the 1980 figures I just took a quick glance and saw both riders had figures of 10.70. Closer inspection confirms that PC was .0057 better than Hans. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norbold Posted November 3, 2009 Report Share Posted November 3, 2009 Hope you'll get back to us norbold. Right...some initial findings: 1946: Averages - Eric Langton Champion - Tommy Price* (7th in averages) 1947: Averages - Vic Duggan Champion - Jack Parker* (10th in averages) 1948: Averages - Vic Duggan Champion - Vic Duggan* 1949: Averages - Vic Duggan Champion - Tommy Price (7th in averages) 1950: Averages - Graham Warren Champion - Freddie Williams (13th in averages) 1951: Averages - Aub Lawson Champion - Jack Young (2nd Division rider) 1952: Averages - Ronnie Moore Champion - Jack Young (2nd in averages) 1953: Averages - Jack Young Champion - Freddie Williams (4th in averages) 1954: Averages - Ronnie Moore Champion - Ronnie Moore 1955: Averages - Jack Young Champion - Peter Craven (5th in averages) 1956: Averages - Barry Briggs Champion - Ove Fundin (3rd in averages) 1957: Averages - Peter Craven Champion - Barry Briggs (5th in averages) * - Not the World Championship of course, but its nearest equivalent, the British Riders Championship and the Riders' Championships So, in only two years between 1946 and 1957 did the rider at the top of the averages win the World Championship (or equivalent) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lucifer sam Posted November 3, 2009 Report Share Posted November 3, 2009 Right...some initial findings: 1946: Averages - Eric Langton Champion - Tommy Price* (7th in averages) 1947: Averages - Vic Duggan Champion - Jack Parker* (10th in averages) 1948: Averages - Vic Duggan Champion - Vic Duggan* 1949: Averages - Vic Duggan Champion - Tommy Price (7th in averages) 1950: Averages - Graham Warren Champion - Freddie Williams (13th in averages) 1951: Averages - Aub Lawson Champion - Jack Young (2nd Division rider) 1952: Averages - Ronnie Moore Champion - Jack Young (2nd in averages) 1953: Averages - Jack Young Champion - Freddie Williams (4th in averages) 1954: Averages - Ronnie Moore Champion - Ronnie Moore 1955: Averages - Jack Young Champion - Peter Craven (5th in averages) 1956: Averages - Barry Briggs Champion - Ove Fundin (3rd in averages) 1957: Averages - Peter Craven Champion - Barry Briggs (5th in averages) * - Not the World Championship of course, but its nearest equivalent, the British Riders Championship and the Riders' Championships So, in only two years between 1946 and 1957 did the rider at the top of the averages win the World Championship (or equivalent) Interesting. So there is much more of a correlation between averages and champions from 1965 onwards. Why is that? Is that because the likes of Mauger (who did the double 4 times) and Nielsen (3 times) etc were that much more dominant of was it because the post-war years were that much more competitive? Or was it becuase Wembley produced a big home track advantage, since Jack Parker in 1947 aside, the lowest postioned riders in the averages who triumphed were the Wembley riders. All the best Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mickthemuppet Posted November 3, 2009 Report Share Posted November 3, 2009 Am I missing something here . The posting was "World Champions That Never Were" I conclude that means Speedway riders that were never World Champions. So why is the site littered with past world champions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianmartin Posted November 3, 2009 Report Share Posted November 3, 2009 Am I missing something here . The posting was "World Champions That Never Were" I conclude that means Speedway riders that were never World Champions. So why is the site littered with past world champions. All Forums have Threads that go off Topic sometimes. I appreciate what you say - but - I am finding this Thread VERY informative, interesting AND also very entertaining. I know it has veered away from the original Title - but - for something that is this good - I am happy with the way it is going. I don't agree with everything that is said mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lucifer sam Posted November 3, 2009 Report Share Posted November 3, 2009 Am I missing something here . The posting was "World Champions That Never Were" I conclude that means Speedway riders that were never World Champions. So why is the site littered with past world champions. Because we went off-topic very early on. All the best Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norbold Posted November 4, 2009 Report Share Posted November 4, 2009 All Forums have Threads that go off Topic sometimes. Ours more than most! I mean this is hardly the first example in the history of the BSF that a topic has gone off subject. is it mick? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canadian Star Posted November 17, 2009 Report Share Posted November 17, 2009 Gentlemen, whilst i am currently on my hols, i have had a little more time than usual to tour the forum. I have not visited the "Years Gone By" section for ages. How pleasent it has been this morning to read such a friendly, fact based and reasoned argument as has been this one. Apart from one small interjection of rudeness, it has been an absolute pleasure to read all of your opinions, they all made good sense. It just proves a point that it is still possible to enjoy a reasoned debate on here, without sinking to the levels of abuse, sarcasm and name calling we see so often on most of the main area's of this site. Thank You and a huge well done to all of you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rami Posted November 17, 2009 Report Share Posted November 17, 2009 Salty, don't get me wrong, I think Erik was a great rider. That's why I made sure I gave him at least one GP championship, some people didn't even give him that, but I think that's inconceviable. It's just I saw Hans Nielsen a lot - and he had a bad meeting about once every five years. At his prime, I believe he was the most consistent rider ever seen. From 1985 to 1989, Nielsen in a GP series would have been a very, very hard man to beat over 8 rounds - even for a great rider such as Gundersen. 1982 has to be Penhall or Carter - the question is which one. 1983 is maybe the hardest year to predict of all. There's no outstanding candidate, but arould 6 or 7 riders who could have done it. All the best Rob I agree that week in week out Hans was the man but i still think that Erik had the edge when it came to raising his game and if that was for a one of final or 8 grand prixs i think he would have still given hans a run for his money. Being top of the averages doesnt always mean anything when it comes to big pressure meetings. Perfect example Leigh Adams, lets say the GP system had never been introduced we are still on one off world finals and Leigh had never won one, probably 90 per cent of people on here would say that if it had been a gp system Leigh Adams would have been world champ at least once maybe twice - well it was a gp system and he never was world champion, maybe if it was still the old one off world final mr consistency would have pinched a world title. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lucifer sam Posted November 17, 2009 Report Share Posted November 17, 2009 (edited) I agree that week in week out Hans was the man but i still think that Erik had the edge when it came to raising his game and if that was for a one of final or 8 grand prixs i think he would have still given hans a run for his money. Being top of the averages doesnt always mean anything when it comes to big pressure meetings. Perfect example Leigh Adams, lets say the GP system had never been introduced we are still on one off world finals and Leigh had never won one, probably 90 per cent of people on here would say that if it had been a gp system Leigh Adams would have been world champ at least once maybe twice - well it was a gp system and he never was world champion, maybe if it was still the old one off world final mr consistency would have pinched a world title. Rami, there's a world of difference between Hans Nielsen and Leigh Adams, though. Leigh doesn't want to take the risks in the Grand Prix, whereas Hans was capable of being quite ruthless when it came to gaining even one extra point in a World Final. Hans Nielsen was a much harder rider than Leigh Adams. And Hans was very consistent at world level, while Leigh has always been very up-and-down on the world stage. Erik wouldn't have made it easy for Hans, but even one bad round out of 8 would have been too many. And Erik did have the odd blip, the 1986 World Final being the most noticeable. Looking at the 1984 to 1989 World Finals and Erik and Hans won 3 each. However, in those finals, Hans scored 13 points more than Erik - and remember, in the GP series, EVERY point counts. It shows even if Erik won half of the rounds in a GP series, he'd still struggle to win it overall against a rider who finished first or second every time. The GP series rewards consistency - look at 2008 when Nicki Pedersen was a fairly easy winner, despite winning just one round. Crump & Gollob both won more rounds, but couldn't match Nicki's consistency. All the best Rob Edited November 17, 2009 by lucifer sam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
salty Posted November 18, 2009 Report Share Posted November 18, 2009 Looking at the 1984 to 1989 World Finals and Erik and Hans won 3 each. However, in those finals, Hans scored 13 points more than Erik - and remember, in the GP series, EVERY point counts. It shows even if Erik won half of the rounds in a GP series, he'd still struggle to win it overall against a rider who finished first or second every time. But as I said before Rob, I feel once Erik knew he wasn't going to be champ then he wouldn't be so driven for the rest of the meeting just to try and get a rostrum spot. 2nd or 3rd meant nothing to him hence the lower points hauls when he wasn't champ. Still reckon if it had been a GP format then you would have seen a more consisitent Erik. Anyone any strong views who would have been Champ in 1983 under the GP format? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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