norbold Posted October 31, 2009 Report Share Posted October 31, 2009 Yet it is. But I can't help feeling that they've done Ivan Mauger something of a disservice. Mauger was the dominant rider in world speedway up until around 1975, and I can't see him not winning another championship after either 1971 or 1972, whatever the format of the championship. All the best Rob Exactly what I thought, Rob. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arnieg Posted October 31, 2009 Report Share Posted October 31, 2009 Maybe one or more of us should write to Backtrack sumarising the deliberations on this thread Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
salty Posted October 31, 2009 Report Share Posted October 31, 2009 Maybe one or more of us should write to Backtrack sumarising the deliberations on this thread To be honest when I read the "blurb" for this issue I thought it might it might mirror the article in last months Backtrack which used comments from the "A track I wish I could have visited" thread. I agree with others that Mauger would have continued to collect more Championships throughout the 70's regardless of the format. In the next issue attention turns to the 80's - woe betide them if they try to give Erik less than 3 titles! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lucifer sam Posted November 1, 2009 Report Share Posted November 1, 2009 In the next issue attention turns to the 80's - woe betide them if they try to give Erik less than 3 titles! Salty, apart from maybe 1984, I can't see how Erik would have triumphed in any other year. I don't think Hans would have missed a final of a GP round between 1985 and 1989. Erik may have won more rounds than Hans some years, but it would have been very difficult for Erik to deal with Hans over the 8-round series that Backtrack stipulated. Erik was a great rider but was not consistent - look at the 1986 World Final (7 points), the 1987 BLRC (4 points) or the 1988 World Paris (in which a paid max from Hans carried a hugely up-and-down performance from Erik) as examples to Erik's inconsistency. Remember in the GP series every point counts - in the World Finals between 1984 and 1989, Erik and Hans won three each, but Hans scored 13 points more than Erik from these finals. I believe there would have been years when Erik would have won 3 or 4 rounds, but still missed out due to Hans's sheer consistency. All the best Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
salty Posted November 1, 2009 Report Share Posted November 1, 2009 (edited) I knew you would come up with that argument! No question Hans was more consistent, whilst Erik was arguably more effective in the one-off Finals. That was more a question of Erik basing his season about peaking on that night in September. Don't think it is inconceivable that if the GP system had been in place then Erik would have been able to adjust his approach and rise to the occasion. Guess its all conjecture, but I personally think Erik was talented enough to have triumphed whatever the format used. PS I don't hold much store to the points scored in the Finals. I always got the impression that Erik wasn't that bothered riding for a rostrum place. Will be interesting to see who gets the nod for the 1982 and 1983 seasons. Edited November 1, 2009 by salty Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lucifer sam Posted November 1, 2009 Report Share Posted November 1, 2009 I knew you would come up with that argument! No question Hans was more consistent, whilst Erik was arguably more effective in the one-off Finals. That was more a question of Erik basing his season about peaking on that night in September. Don't think it is inconceivable that if the GP system had been in place then Erik would have been able to adjust his approach and rise to the occasion. Guess its all conjecture, but I personally think Erik was talented enough to have triumphed whatever the format used. PS I don't hold much store to the points scored in the Finals. I always got the impression that Erik wasn't that bothered riding for a rostrum place. Will be interesting to see who gets the nod for the 1982 and 1983 seasons. Salty, don't get me wrong, I think Erik was a great rider. That's why I made sure I gave him at least one GP championship, some people didn't even give him that, but I think that's inconceviable. It's just I saw Hans Nielsen a lot - and he had a bad meeting about once every five years. At his prime, I believe he was the most consistent rider ever seen. From 1985 to 1989, Nielsen in a GP series would have been a very, very hard man to beat over 8 rounds - even for a great rider such as Gundersen. 1982 has to be Penhall or Carter - the question is which one. 1983 is maybe the hardest year to predict of all. There's no outstanding candidate, but arould 6 or 7 riders who could have done it. All the best Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lucifer sam Posted November 1, 2009 Report Share Posted November 1, 2009 Maybe one or more of us should write to Backtrack sumarising the deliberations on this thread Arnie, I'm considering doing just that. All the best Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
salty Posted November 1, 2009 Report Share Posted November 1, 2009 Salty, don't get me wrong, I think Erik was a great rider. That's why I made sure I gave him at least one GP championship, some people didn't even give him that, but I think that's inconceviable. It's just I saw Hans Nielsen a lot - and he had a bad meeting about once every five years. At his prime, I believe he was the most consistent rider ever seen. From 1985 to 1989, Nielsen in a GP series would have been a very, very hard man to beat over 8 rounds - even for a great rider such as Gundersen. 1982 has to be Penhall or Carter - the question is which one. 1983 is maybe the hardest year to predict of all. There's no outstanding candidate, but arould 6 or 7 riders who could have done it. All the best Rob Will have to agree to disagree about Erik's likely chances in a GP series against Hans. I just have a gut feeling Erik would have been able to adjust his approach to focus on the key 8 GP's As for 1982, I agree it is a toss up between Bruce and Kenny. Would his impending departure from the sport caused Penhall to lose focus over a 8 meeting series? Would Carter have had the temperament to be at his best for a whole season? 1983 is even more difficult to call - arguably any one of Sigalos, Carter, Nielsen, Gundersen, Sanders or Lee could have prevailed (and I have probably missed out a couple of other candidates). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fatface Posted November 2, 2009 Report Share Posted November 2, 2009 Will have to agree to disagree about Erik's likely chances in a GP series against Hans. I just have a gut feeling Erik would have been able to adjust his approach to focus on the key 8 GP's I agree entirely. Gundersen had that extra gear to go up to when the crunch really came. I don't think Nielsen had it. You could make a great case for Hans Nielsen being the greatest British League rider ever, but when it come to the big stage, he probably didn't perform to his maximum potential. Having actually won the world championship four times, that does mean he was one hell of a rider. But you could make an argument that his temperament was found a little wanting in 84, 85, 88, 94, 97, when he could - and probably should - have won at least three of those. Has any other rider lost THREE world title run-offs? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iris123 Posted November 2, 2009 Report Share Posted November 2, 2009 I agree entirely. Gundersen had that extra gear to go up to when the crunch really came. I agree with you.At least that is my impression of Erik now after all those years.Not sure what his league averages were like,but my one trip to Cradley heath was for a Cradley v Oxford meeting just to see the two up against each other.Think Erik beat Hans in the Golden Helmet match races and then went on to have a fairly average meeting for Cradley,getting 6 or 7 points only... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lucifer sam Posted November 2, 2009 Report Share Posted November 2, 2009 (edited) I agree with you.At least that is my impression of Erik now after all those years.Not sure what his league averages were like,but my one trip to Cradley heath was for a Cradley v Oxford meeting just to see the two up against each other.Think Erik beat Hans in the Golden Helmet match races and then went on to have a fairly average meeting for Cradley,getting 6 or 7 points only... Erik's most extreme performances at Oxford came in two weeks in 1984. One week he came and beat Hans 2-0 in the Golden Helmet, breaking the track record into the bargain, the next week he came in a league match and scored a frankly rubbish 2 from 5 rides, including a couple of defeats to Hans, also tasting defeat to the likes of Mel Taylor and Jens Rasmussen. Erik was a man for the big occasion and was a great rider. However, Hans was the one with the consistency (sorry that word again). And Hans could also pull off a big win when it mattered - look at Heat 20 of the 1986 World Final or the run-off for first place in the 1986 World Pairs. And plenty of wins over Erik in last heat deciders at Dudley Wood, where Hans was supreme, much to the disgust of the Cradley fans. Looking at the GP series and you've got Gollob. Here's a man for the big ocassion - twice in three years he's pulled it out of the fire for the Poles in the World Cup in the final race, plus he's won the Polish GP in the cauldron of Bydgoszcz countless times. And yet he hasn't been become World Champion, because he's never been able to match the consistency of Crump, Rickardson or Pedersen across a whole series. The key to the GP series is consistency. It's not the man who wins the most GPs who wins the series, it's the rider who consistently piles up the points in each Grand Prix. All the best Rob Edited November 2, 2009 by lucifer sam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iris123 Posted November 2, 2009 Report Share Posted November 2, 2009 But Gollob is very particular on what track he does the business really.If he takes a dislike to the conditions he looks uninteressted and pretty average.I wouldn't say Erik was like that.I don't think they are as similar as you try to make out.And to mention Gollob and Bydgoszcz....well ok if there was a GP at Oxford then Hans would be favourite every time...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lucifer sam Posted November 2, 2009 Report Share Posted November 2, 2009 And to mention Gollob and Bydgoszcz....well ok if there was a GP at Oxford then Hans would be favourite every time...... Iris - that shows you're relying on third hand information, rather than first-hand eye witness evidence. Because Hans was actually more vulnerable around Oxford than away tracks. In the season he set his 11.83 league average, all his points were dropped at home. He had a 12.00 away average. There were a few away tracks where Nielsen dropped a point once in a blue moon - and Cradley was one of them. But yes, Gundersen was a much better rider than Gollob, although I did see a few ocassions where Erik became completely unmotivated when things started to go wrong. Gundersen did have bad meetings, and sometimes at world level. Anyway, I still maintain that no-one could have matched Hans Nielsen over an 8-round GP series between 1985 and 1989 (his prime years). We'll see if Tony Mac and John Berry agree. All the best Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iris123 Posted November 2, 2009 Report Share Posted November 2, 2009 Iris - that shows you're relying on third hand information, rather than first-hand eye witness evidence. Because Hans was actually more vulnerable around Oxford than away tracks. In the season he set his 11.83 league average, all his points were dropped at home. He had a 12.00 away average. There were a few away tracks where Nielsen dropped a point once in a blue moon - and Cradley was one of them. But yes, Gundersen was a much better rider than Gollob, although I did see a few ocassions where Erik became completely unmotivated when things started to go wrong. Gundersen did have bad meetings, and sometimes at world level. Anyway, I still maintain that no-one could have matched Hans Nielsen over an 8-round GP series between 1985 and 1989 (his prime years). We'll see if Tony Mac and John Berry agree. All the best Rob Well of course i only saw Hans at Oxford a couple of times.One of those was the England v Denmark meeting where he was reserve anyway But i thought he held the track record for about 15 or so years......so he must have been pretty good there if he wanted to be Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lucifer sam Posted November 2, 2009 Report Share Posted November 2, 2009 (edited) Well of course i only saw Hans at Oxford a couple of times.One of those was the England v Denmark meeting where he was reserve anyway But i thought he held the track record for about 15 or so years......so he must have been pretty good there if he wanted to be With league averages of 11.83 in 1986 and 11.73 in 1987, he was good everywhere. And he's held the Oxford track record since June 1985 - the last person apart from Hans to hold it was Marvyn Cox, who held the track record for a grand total of 2 days before Hans got it back. The last time he broke it was 1988, on a very wet and very grippy track. Four laps at full pelt without putting a foot down - Hans beat second placed Knudsen by half a lap. All the best Rob Edited November 2, 2009 by lucifer sam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iris123 Posted November 2, 2009 Report Share Posted November 2, 2009 So to sumarize your posts, i take it you are saying Erik was better than Gollob.But Hans wasn't as good on his home track as Tomasz is on his home track?I can only conclude you also agree that Erik was the better of the 3 aforementioned riders Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lucifer sam Posted November 2, 2009 Report Share Posted November 2, 2009 So to sumarize your posts, i take it you are saying Erik was better than Gollob.But Hans wasn't as good on his home track as Tomasz is on his home track?I can only conclude you also agree that Erik was the better of the 3 aforementioned riders Iris - nice try (and I realise you're being somewhat facetious) but no. Erik Gundersen never once topped the BL averages. I'm someone who considers British racing as the bread & butter of my interest in the sport, so he can't be better than a rider who topped the BL averages a record seven times in succession (1984-1990). All the best Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iris123 Posted November 2, 2009 Report Share Posted November 2, 2009 Iris - nice try (and I realise you're being somewhat facetious) but no. Erik Gundersen never once topped the BL averages. I'm someone who considers British racing as the bread & butter of my interest in the sport, so he can't be better than a rider who topped the BL averages a record seven times in succession (1984-1990). All the best Rob Funny you mention the averages,because i wanted to ask how often the World Champ corresponded to the table topper in the league averages? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lucifer sam Posted November 2, 2009 Report Share Posted November 2, 2009 Funny you mention the averages,because i wanted to ask how often the World Champ corresponded to the table topper in the league averages? Since the formation of the British League, it's something like: 1966 - Barry Briggs 1968 - Ivan Mauger 1969 - Ivan Mauger 1970 - Ivan Mauger 1972 - Ivan Mauger 1981 - Bruce Penhall 1986 - Hans Nielsen 1987 - Hans Nielsen 1989 - Hans Nielsen 1993 - Sam Ermolenko 1996 - Billy Hamill 1998 - Tony Rickardsson 2002 - Tony Rickardsson 2004 - Jason Crump 2006 - Jason Crump All the best Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOBBATH Posted November 3, 2009 Report Share Posted November 3, 2009 I know that Nigel Boocock topped the top div. averages in 1965-but who did it in the years you missed out Rob-I think it may have been Betts or Wilson in 67 but am not sure-did Ole Olsen ever top the averages?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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