World Champions That Never Were

[lucifer sam]

But as I said before Rob, I feel once Erik knew he wasn't going to be champ then he wouldn't be so driven for the rest of the meeting just to try and get a rostrum spot.

2nd or 3rd meant nothing to him hence the lower points hauls when he wasn't champ. Still reckon if it had been a GP format then you would have seen a more consisitent Erik.

 

Salty, I don't quite buy that since in Amsterdam in 1987, Erik dropped four points early on Day Two, but plugged away and eventually finished second, beating Ermolenko in a run-off.

 

Interestingly, the two times the Danes needed a rider to win a run-off in the World Pairs (for the 1984 silver medal and the 1986 gold medal), Hans was chosen before Erik on both ocassions and duly delivered each time.

 

All the best

Rob

 

[salty]

I guess that's a fair point, I'd forgotten that he finished with 3 wins in Amsterdam. Much of the same in Munich I guess, as without the m/f he would probably finished with 14. I think it's fair to say 1986 was the one he wasn't interested in a podium spot.

 

Strange that the Danes would put so much faith in Hans in the run-offs as his record in the World Championship run-offs was poor. Could it be that Hans would have found the A Finals similarly too much pressure????

[lucifer sam]

I guess that's a fair point, I'd forgotten that he finished with 3 wins in Amsterdam. Much of the same in Munich I guess, as without the m/f he would probably finished with 14. I think it's fair to say 1986 was the one he wasn't interested in a podium spot.

 

Strange that the Danes would put so much faith in Hans in the run-offs as his record in the World Championship run-offs was poor. Could it be that Hans would have found the A Finals similarly too much pressure????

 

Is that really true?

 

Hans Nielsen's record in run-offs:

1984: Nielsen, King

1985: Gundersen, Nielsen, Ermolenko

1988: Gundersen, Nielsen

1991: Nielsen, Knudsen

1993: Nielsen, Louis

1994: Rickardsson, Nielsen, Boyce

A 5-3 record.

 

Compare to Ivan Mauger:

1972: Mauger, Persson

1973: Szczakiel, Mauger

1974: Mauger, Sjosten

1975: Louis, Mauger

A 2-2 record.

 

Nielsen also has a better record than Mauger in World Pairs run-offs. So it looks like Hans Nielsen was better under pressure than Ivan Mauger.

 

Of course, Erik's record in run-offs is very good:

1985: Gundersen, Nielsen, Ermolenko

1987: Gundersen, Ermolneko

1988: Gundersen, Nielsen

A 4-0 record.

 

But Nielsen normally outperformed Gundersen in the World Pairs and when it came to the Danes selecting a man to contest a run-off, it was Nielsen selected and not Gundersen.

 

And Gundersen did crack under pressure sometimes. Remember the run-off for first place in the 1984 BLRC, when Gundersen shot through the tapes.

 

All the best

Rob

Edited November 18, 2009 by lucifer sam

[salty]

Clever use of stats!

I would only be interested in run-offs for the Number 1 slot, so I have Hans 0-3, Ivan 1-1, Erik 2-0.

 

[lucifer sam]

Clever use of stats!

I would only be interested in run-offs for the Number 1 slot, so I have Hans 0-3, Ivan 1-1, Erik 2-0.

 

In run-offs for first place, surely Hans is 2-3 as he beat both Ermolenko & Boyce in such run-offs (and Erik is 3-0 not 2-0). I think you're twisting the stats the way you want them.

 

The way I see it is: in the World Final and World Pairs Finals run-offs, Nielsen's record is 7-3. And the 3 losses all came in meetings where he was the worst for wear by the end of the meeting. In 1985 he walking it until he was brought crashing down in his fourth outing and ended up losing his No.1 bike on which he mullered Gundersen in Heat 4, in 1988 he continued in the meeting despite being injured in his first ride (look at the photos of Hans that day following the fall, he doesn't look quite right - did he contunue in the meeting with concussion?) and in 1994, he had only just returned from injury and was still only semi-fit.

 

Twice the Danes had to pick a man to win a run-off for them in the World Pairs. Twice they picked Nielsen and ignored Gundersen. Twice Nielsen won the run-off for Denmark. Once (1984) the Danish team manager in question was Ole Olsen, who picked Nielsen ahead of Gundersen, the rider he was managing.

 

Nielsen not being any good in run-offs is a myth - and one who seem to be trying to perpuate. And the cold hard facts is that it's just not true.

 

And I don't think anyone could win a record 22 World Championship Gold Medals (Hans actually has 23 FIM Gold Medals as one was also handed out to the winner of the Champion Of Champions) without being good under pressure. Nielsen often came good under pressure, the 1979 World Pairs Final (5-1 with Olsen in final race), the 1986 World Final (final race shootout against Jan O), 1986 World Pairs Final (won in a run-off) and the 1988 & 1990 World Pairs Final (both won with a Danish maximum in the final to break the hearts of England & Australia respectively) are all examples of this.

 

And shall we look at who did better in pressure last-heat deciders between Cradley Heath and Oxford at Dudley Wood, because I recall Nielsen being supreme in those. Gundersen, Pedersen and Cross used to have thier arses kicked on a regular basis by Hans at Dudley Wood.

 

All the best

Rob

Edited November 19, 2009 by lucifer sam

[waihekerich]

 

Hi all,

 

New to the forum, I was a regular at Hyde Rd from 81-87, before my family moved back to NZ. Followed this thread with much interest, thought I’d share my thoughts on probable GP winners if the system was in effect in the 80s.

 

 

1980: 1 Jessup 2 Lee 3 Peter Collins

1981: 1 Penhall 2 Jessup 3 Lee

1982: 1 Penhall 2 Carter 3 Gundersen

1983: 1 Nielsen 2 Gundersen 3 Lee

1984: 1 Gundersen 2 Nielsen 3 S Moran

1985: 1 Gundersen 2 Nielsen 3 S Moran

1986: 1 Nielsen 2 Gundersen 3 Knudsen

1987: 1 Nielsen 2 Gundersen 3 Ermolenko

1988: 1 Nielsen 2 Gundersen 3 Pedersen

1989: 1 Nielsen 2 Gundersen 3 Wigg

 

Notes:

 

80: Jessup consistently the best rider, he and Lee well clear of the rest. Would have gone with Penhall for 3rd, but not sure he did enough in ’79 to qualify, so gone with PC.

 

81: Penhall indisputably the best rider in the world. Gone with Jessup 2nd based on his overseas final victory, and would have finished on podium in World final if not for engine problems. Would have gone with Carter for 3rd, but not sure he would have qualified from 80. Lee a marginal call, could have gone with Olsen, Nielsen, Knudsen or Gundersen (though like Carter not sure the latter would have qualified).

 

82: Would have been the most memorable two-way battle of the decade, in the end I think Penhall would have edged it as the better rider under pressure. 3rd spot I would have gone with Les Collins or Sigalos, but again don’t think either would have qualified from the prior year, so went with Gundersen to edge out Nielsen for 3rd.

 

83: Probaby the most open season in so far as its quite conceivable each GP would have been won by a different rider. But think that makes Nielsen a reasonably clear cut selection as GP winner due to his consistency ,as evidenced by his winning the Danish, Nordic and Inter-Conitntental rounds, 2nd in BL averages, 3rd in BLRC, and would have finished on podium in Norden if not for engine failure. Gundersen (2nd in Danish and Nordic finals, 3rd in Inter-comtinental BLRC winner, 3rd in averages, 4th in world Final) and Lee (2nd in British and Inter-continental finals, and BLRC and 3rd in World final) to join him on the rostrum. Carter, Sigalos and Sanders would be the others in contention, but don’t think any did enough to justify inclusion ahead of the three I’ve gone with.

 

84: Gone with Erik to win, as arguably his best year as he did the “grand slam”, and Nielsen not yet as consistently brilliant as he would become. Gundersen’s BL average significantly lower than Hans due to numerous tape exclusions (also in the BLRC run-off), but the new rules wouldn’t have applied to GP. Shaun Moran in third on basis of his inter-contintntal final victory (and he would likely have won the overseas final if not for an engine failure). Morton (who had arguably his best ever season) and King (Overseas champ and third in both world final and inter-continental final) would have come close to rostrum spots.

 

85: Think this would have been the best three way battle of the decade, with Gundersen, Nielsen and Moran battling it out (and Carter would have been very close too until hit by injury). In the end Gundersen winning the World Final and BLRC sees me go with him over Hans then Shaun.

 

86-89: This is where Hans really came into his own, and don’t think anyone would have touched him over a GP series. Erik would have been just a few points back in second and then a number of riders way back in the distance scrapping for 3rd (exception being 88 where I think Pedersen would have run the big two close). Even in 89 I think Erik would have built up enough of a buffer to hold onto second even with his tragic accident late in the season.

 

Even in 86-89 I think Erik would have won as many or more GPs than Hans – he clearly has the better record in final run-offs, no matter whether you view them as having a 2-3/3-0 or 0-3/2-0 record in first place run offs (I think the latter is correct – Hans won no world finals in three run-off situations, Erik won 2 from 2). That’s not to say that Hans was no good in pressure situations – clearly as pointed out in detail on here he was. My view is that if I was picking someone to ride for my life in a must-win situation I’d pick Hans every time – unless it was a head-to-head for the World Title with Erik, in which case I’d go with Erik. And I reckon Penhall would beat them both!

 

Cheers

 

Rich

[fatface]

Is that really true?

 

Hans Nielsen's record in run-offs:

1984: Nielsen, King

1985: Gundersen, Nielsen, Ermolenko

1988: Gundersen, Nielsen

1991: Nielsen, Knudsen

1993: Nielsen, Louis

1994: Rickardsson, Nielsen, Boyce

A 5-3 record.

 

Compare to Ivan Mauger:

1972: Mauger, Persson

1973: Szczakiel, Mauger

1974: Mauger, Sjosten

1975: Louis, Mauger

A 2-2 record.

 

Nielsen also has a better record than Mauger in World Pairs run-offs. So it looks like Hans Nielsen was better under pressure than Ivan Mauger.

 

Of course, Erik's record in run-offs is very good:

1985: Gundersen, Nielsen, Ermolenko

1987: Gundersen, Ermolneko

1988: Gundersen, Nielsen

A 4-0 record.

 

But Nielsen normally outperformed Gundersen in the World Pairs and when it came to the Danes selecting a man to contest a run-off, it was Nielsen selected and not Gundersen.

 

And Gundersen did crack under pressure sometimes. Remember the run-off for first place in the 1984 BLRC, when Gundersen shot through the tapes.

 

All the best

Rob

Interesting reading is that Rob. I tend to think you've included some rather redundant stats though. For me, the key one is that Hans lost three run-offs out of three to win the title, Erik won two out of two. For me, Gundersen was THE MAN when it came to the crunch. I'd be interested in knowing their head-to-head record in finals from 81 to 89. My feeling is that Erik once again has the edge.

 

As a footnote, yep I remember that BLRC run-off well. Gundersen was notorious for tape touching that year. It was the first year of the new exclusion rule being brought in and he found it harder than most to adjust to it. In the re-run, Nielsen stopped and tried to claim foul when Chris Morton surprised him by nipping inside him on the second bend. Hans hardly demonstrated a head for the occasion that night too.

Edited November 19, 2009 by falcace

[fatface]

Anyone any strong views who would have been Champ in 1983 under the GP format?

A tricky one to call is that. There would've been a fair few GP winners that year. Chris Morton started the year like a train. Dennis Sigalos and Hans Nielsen were the top riders during the summer and Kenny Carter finally got back his top form by the year's end. But my pick would have been Mike Lee. He was in excellent form all year, he was mentally refreshed by his move to Poole and - unlike his main rivals - he had ample experience of competing at the very top end of the sport.

[cardrew]

From the early years, the best riders to never actually win a World Championship were Frank Arthur, Vic Huxley, Tom Farndon, Jack Parker and Vic Duggan.

The first four won the Star Championship (a forerunner of the WC), and Vic Duggan won the British Riders Championship (in a year when there was no WC).

Jack Parker also become World's Individual Champion in 1931, in a competition later known as the BIC.

 

It is incredible that the last 4 Star Champions were British (1932-35), but over the next 50 years there were only a handful of British World Champions

(Price, Williams x2, Craven x2, Collins, Lee)

 

The last British World Champion (Mark Loram) wasn't born in Great Britain, the current World Champion (Jason Crump) was!

[norbold]

From the early years, the best riders to never actually win a World Championship were Frank Arthur, Vic Huxley, Tom Farndon, Jack Parker and Vic Duggan.

The first four won the Star Championship (a forerunner of the WC), and Vic Duggan won the British Riders Championship (in a year when there was no WC).

Jack Parker also become World's Individual Champion in 1931, in a competition later known as the BIC.

Couldn't agree more. Jack Parker, of course, also won the Riders' Championship in 1947.

[cardrew]

The one factor you have overlooked is that the World Finals were held at Wembley from 1936 and thus favoured a home track rider (e.g. 5 Wembley Champions in 12 years - Frank Charles 1935, Lionel Van Praag 1936, Tommy Price 1949, Freddie Williams 1950, Freddie Williams 1953). I have included 1935 Star Championship as it was run on the same lines as 1936 (without the bonus points).

 

1935 season was dominated by the rivalry between Bluey Wilkinson (Australian Champion) and Tom Farndon (British Champion), unfortunately the anticipated match up never occurred, and it was won by a rank outsider (10th in Qualifying Round), that is why the Bonus Points system was used in 1936-39.

 

Norbold - OK, I bow to your superior knowledge regarding 1935.

 

So I think we need to let other people catch up, but so far we have:

 

1928 - Frank Arthur

1929 - Frank Arthur

1930 - Vic Huxley

1931 - Vic Huxley

1932 - Vic Huxley

1933 - Tom Farndon

1934 - Tom Farndon

1935 - Bluey Wilkinson

1936 - Eric Langton (ArnieG, Bobbath and Rob) or Bluey Wilkinson (Norbold)

1937 - Jack Milne

1938 - Bluey Wilkinson

1939 - Cordy Milne

1946 - Jack Parker

1947 - Vic Duggan

1948 - Vic Duggan

1949 - Jack Parker

1950 - Graham Warren

1951 - Jack Young (Rob / Norbold) or Aub Lawson (Bobbath)

1952 - Jack Young

1953 - Jack Young

1954 - Ronnie Moore

1955 - Ronnie Moore

 

Any disagreements with any of the above?

 

 

[BOBBATH]

Great summary mate what are your thoughts from 1956 on??Would be interested thanx for taking the trouble to summarise this

[lucifer sam]

Great summary mate what are your thoughts from 1956 on??Would be interested thanx for taking the trouble to summarise this

 

Bobbath, I think it was yours, mine, Norbold's & ArnieG's opinions that I previously summarised - Cardrew had just quoted it.

 

Interesting that this thread has kicked back into life. Of course, in the meantime, Backtrack have played this game themselves in regards to the 70s & 80s.

 

All the best

Rob

Edited March 25, 2010 by lucifer sam

[waiheke1]

ok, to bump this thread (as it has some relevance to another discussion), and complete the list, the rough consensus seemed to be:

 

1928 - Frank Arthur

1929 - Frank Arthur

1930 - Vic Huxley

1931 - Vic Huxley

1932 - Vic Huxley

1933 - Tom Farndon

1934 - Tom Farndon

1935 - Bluey Wilkinson

1936 - Eric Langton (ArnieG, Bobbath and Rob) or Bluey Wilkinson (Norbold)

1937 - Jack Milne

1938 - Bluey Wilkinson

1939 - Cordy Milne

1946 - Jack Parker

1947 - Vic Duggan

1948 - Vic Duggan

1949 - Jack Parker

1950 - Graham Warren

1951 - Jack Young (Rob / Norbold) or Aub Lawson (Bobbath)

1952 - Jack Young

1953 - Jack Young

1954 - Ronnie Moore

1955 - Ronnie Moore

1956- Ove Fundin

1957- Ove Fundin

1958- Ove Fundin

1959- Ove Fundin

1960- Ove Fundin

1961-Ove Fundin

1962-Peter Craven

1963-Ove Fundin

1964 - Bjorn Knutsson

1965 – Barry Briggs

1966 - Barry Briggs

1967 - Barry Briggs

1968 - Ivan Mauger

1969 - Ivan Mauger

1970 - Ivan Mauger

1971 - Ivan Mauger

1972 - Ole Olsen

1973 - Ivan Mauger

1974 - Ivan Mauger

1975 - Ivan Mauger

1976 - Peter Collins

1977 – Peter Collins

1978 - Ole Olsen

1979 – Michael Lee

1980- Dave Jessup

1981 Bruce Penhall

1982 Bruce Penhall

1983 Hans Nielsen

1984 Erik Gundersen

1985 Erik Gundersen

1986 Hans Nielsen

1987 Hans Nielsen

1988 Hans Nielsen

1989 Hans Nielsen

1990 Hans Nielsen

1991 Hans Nielsen

1992 Per Jonsson

1993 Sam Ermolenko

1994 Hans Nielsen

 

Hopefully that’s a fair representation of the debate, certainly the following years had no clear consensus:

62- Craven or Fundin

65- Briggs or Plechanov

73 – Mauger or Michanek

75 – Mauger, Olsen or Crump

76 – Collins or Mauger

77 – Collins or Olsen

83- Neilsen or Gundersen, Lee, Sigalos, Sanders, Carter?

85 – Nielsen or Gundersen

93 – Ermolenko or Nielsen

[stratton]

ok, to bump this thread (as it has some relevance to another discussion), and complete the list, the rough consensus seemed to be:

 

1928 - Frank Arthur

1929 - Frank Arthur

1930 - Vic Huxley

1931 - Vic Huxley

1932 - Vic Huxley

1933 - Tom Farndon

1934 - Tom Farndon

1935 - Bluey Wilkinson

1936 - Eric Langton (ArnieG, Bobbath and Rob) or Bluey Wilkinson (Norbold)

1937 - Jack Milne

1938 - Bluey Wilkinson

1939 - Cordy Milne

1946 - Jack Parker

1947 - Vic Duggan

1948 - Vic Duggan

1949 - Jack Parker

1950 - Graham Warren

1951 - Jack Young (Rob / Norbold) or Aub Lawson (Bobbath)

1952 - Jack Young

1953 - Jack Young

1954 - Ronnie Moore

1955 - Ronnie Moore

1956- Ove Fundin

1957- Ove Fundin

1958- Ove Fundin

1959- Ove Fundin

1960- Ove Fundin

1961-Ove Fundin

1962-Peter Craven

1963-Ove Fundin

1964 - Bjorn Knutsson

1965 – Barry Briggs

1966 - Barry Briggs

1967 - Barry Briggs

1968 - Ivan Mauger

1969 - Ivan Mauger

1970 - Ivan Mauger

1971 - Ivan Mauger

1972 - Ole Olsen

1973 - Ivan Mauger

1974 - Ivan Mauger

1975 - Ivan Mauger

1976 - Peter Collins

1977 – Peter Collins

1978 - Ole Olsen

1979 – Michael Lee

1980- Dave Jessup

1981 Bruce Penhall

1982 Bruce Penhall

1983 Hans Nielsen

1984 Erik Gundersen

1985 Erik Gundersen

1986 Hans Nielsen

1987 Hans Nielsen

1988 Hans Nielsen

1989 Hans Nielsen

1990 Hans Nielsen

1991 Hans Nielsen

1992 Per Jonsson

1993 Sam Ermolenko

1994 Hans Nielsen

 

Hopefully that’s a fair representation of the debate, certainly the following years had no clear consensus:

62- Craven or Fundin

65- Briggs or Plechanov

73 – Mauger or Michanek

75 – Mauger, Olsen or Crump

76 – Collins or Mauger

77 – Collins or Olsen

83- Neilsen or Gundersen, Lee, Sigalos, Sanders, Carter?

85 – Nielsen or Gundersen

93 – Ermolenko or Nielsen

Great debate and is very hard to call without really thinking off my head. my view for what its worth 1973 Mauger 1974 Mauger 1975 i agree 76.Collins 77.Collins 78,Mauger Olsen or Autrey 79,Mauger 80.Penhall or Jessup 83.Lee Nielsen These were the few i picked that if had been the gp format thats how i felt it would of gone the only doubt is Michanek maybe in 73.

[stratton]

I did a compete run down on years from 1955 to 1983 how i thought the champions would of been in a g.p. format .I have to eat humble pie and was wrong oh well and it is only my opinion on memory imformation i have on those years league form [ect]individual meetings

1955 Craven 56 Fundin 57 Briggs 58 Fundin 59 Fundin 60 Fundin 61 Fundin 62 Craven 63 Briggs 64 Briggs 65 Briggs 66 Briggs 67 Briggs 68 Mauger 69 Mauger 70 Mauger 71 Mauger 72 Olsen 73 Mauger 74 Mauger 75 Mauger 76 Collins 77 Collins 78 Olsen 79 Mauger 80 Penhall 81 Penhall 82 Penhall 83 Lee TOTAL titles Mauger 8 Olsen 2 Briggs 6 Fundin 5 Collins 2 Craven 2 Penhall 3 Lee 1 The years debatable were in (55 )Briggs and Moore close) (56 )Moore and Craven close) (65 ) Plechanov and Knutsson close) (72) Olsen and Mauger close (73) Mauger and Michanek close) (78) Olsen and Autrey close ) (79) Mauger, Lee, Autrey banned? close) (80) Jessup and Penhall close ) (83)Lee and Nielsen close)

[iris123]

I did a compete run down on years from 1955 to 1983 how i thought the champions would of been in a g.p. format .I have to eat humble pie and was wrong oh well and it is only my opinion on memory imformation i have on those years league form [ect]individual meetings

Nice one sidney.Not often someone here admits to being wrong.It is all opinions of course,but no way could i see how you were getting your figures on the other threads

[stratton]

Nice one sidney.Not often someone here admits to being wrong.It is all opinions of course,but no way could i see how you were getting your figures on the other threads

Dosent matter Iris does it, enjoyed being wrong which i am frequently have learned something .As much as i liked the old way FINALS how many titles would of Nielsen WON in the g.p series 10? i might and to reconsider where i place him now in the all time greats?

[waiheke1]

I did a compete run down on years from 1955 to 1983 how i thought the champions would of been in a g.p. format .I have to eat humble pie and was wrong oh well and it is only my opinion on memory imformation i have on those years league form [ect]individual meetings

1955 Craven 56 Fundin 57 Briggs 58 Fundin 59 Fundin 60 Fundin 61 Fundin 62 Craven 63 Briggs 64 Briggs 65 Briggs 66 Briggs 67 Briggs 68 Mauger 69 Mauger 70 Mauger 71 Mauger 72 Olsen 73 Mauger 74 Mauger 75 Mauger 76 Collins 77 Collins 78 Olsen 79 Mauger 80 Penhall 81 Penhall 82 Penhall 83 Lee TOTAL titles Mauger 8 Olsen 2 Briggs 6 Fundin 5 Collins 2 Craven 2 Penhall 3 Lee 1 The years

So, 5 extra titles for the Fundin/Olsen/Briggs/Fundin,quadrumvirate not the twenty you mentioned earlier.

Shame you're admitting you were wrong (or tongue in cheek) really, as twenty would have meant they would have won between them every year from 1951-1988, I was particularly looking forward to your explanation about how Nielsen missed out 1984-88 (forget the world titles, did he do it against Fundin/Mauger/Olsen), whether it was Mauger or Olsen beating Penhall in 81/82, and why you reckoned the novice Fundin or Briggs were winning ahead of Young and Moore in the early 50s.

[stratton]

So, 5 extra titles for the Fundin/Olsen/Briggs/Fundin,quadrumvirate not the twenty you mentioned earlier.

Shame you're admitting you were wrong (or tongue in cheek) really, as twenty would have meant they would have won between them every year from 1951-1988, I was particularly looking forward to your explanation about how Nielsen missed out 1984-88 (forget the world titles, did he do it against Fundin/Mauger/Olsen), whether it was Mauger or Olsen beating Penhall in 81/82, and why you reckoned the novice Fundin or Briggs were winning ahead of Young and Moore in the early 50s.

Your post is rather muddled you have lost me on a few points .I was wrong not a problem with that, Moore i dont think would of won over 11 rounds also Knutsson as well.Also as great as Nielsen was would he of got the better of Penhall? and the best version of Lee ?over 11 rounds who Knows.