World Champions That Never Were

[ianmartin]

There are some CRACKING arguments against the current day SELECTION of G?. P. Riders. Glad to see Jack Young getting another mention.

[lucifer sam]

P.S. Actually, it's an interesting point to consider when we discuss old style World Championship v. Grand Prix. Would Jack Young and Geoff Mardon have made the finals they did under the new system? It was all part of the old romance of the speedway.

 

Norbold, of course there's also the fact we've happily given Graham Warren the 1950 GP series when he may have not been in it And when we get to 1992... we're probably going to not go for Havvy anyway (IMO it's Jonsson's year), but would the man who won the 1992 World Final have been in the 1992 GP series??

 

1936 is a headache - there's 4 very worthy contenders (Langton, Wilkinson, Charles and Van Praag) but none of them stands out from the other three.

 

Anyway, let's assume that Jack Young would have been in the 1951 series - I think if he had been, then he'd have won it?

 

Unless, anyway disagrees, Young also gets 1952 & 1953 (by some margin as well - he may have won the 1952 series with a couple of rounds to spare ).

 

1954 & 1955 - Ronnie Moore both years? Jack Young wasn't quite the force he was, Craven won the 1955 World Final as a rank outsider and Fundin & Briggs were still on the updward curve.

 

On the other hand, a young Moore was at very the top of his game. But what about Brian Crutcher?

 

(The romantic in me wants Peter Craven as the 1960 World Champion - I'm gathering evidence for that for when we get there )

 

All the best

Rob

 

[norbold]

Norbold, of course there's also the fact we've happily given Graham Warren the 1950 GP series when he may have not been in it And when we get to 1992... we're probably going to not go for Havvy anyway (IMO it's Jonsson's year), but would the man who won the 1992 World Final have been in the 1992 GP series??

Very true!

Anyway, let's assume that Jack Young would have been in the 1951 series - I think if he had been, then he'd have won it?

 

Unless, anyway disagrees, Young also gets 1952 & 1953 (by some margin as well - he may have won the 1952 series with a couple of rounds to spare ).

No doubt about it.

1954 & 1955 - Ronnie Moore both years? Jack Young wasn't quite the force he was, Craven won the 1955 World Final as a rank outsider and Fundin & Briggs were still on the updward curve.

 

On the other hand, a young Moore was at very the top of his game. But what about Brian Crutcher?

 

Yes, I'd go along with Ronnie Moore for both years.

(The romantic in me wants Peter Craven as the 1960 World Champion - I'm gathering evidence for that for when we get there )

1960 was my first year at speedway and Ove Fundin was absolutely dominant that year. It was a big surprise to me when he needed a run-off to win the title. Of all the years Ove did or might have won the World Title, I'd say 1960 was his best. Try a different year for Peter, Rob!

 

[lucifer sam]

1960 was my first year at speedway and Ove Fundin was absolutely dominant that year. It was a big surprise to me when he needed a run-off to win the title. Of all the years Ove did or might have won the World Title, I'd say 1960 was his best. Try a different year for Peter, Rob!

 

Don't worry I will. Of course, you need a bit of luck to win a GP series as you do the World Final. I'm sure that one year Ove Fundin would have got all the bad luck, and be the victim of some awful refereeing decisions, and Craven would pip him over the series, just as Loram did to Rickardsson in 2000 (and of course, Craven was a better rider than Loram and would have won some rounds).

 

Now off to find an appropriate year...

 

In the meantime, we'd better let everyone else catch up, as we seem to have sprinted forward and covered all the years to 1955. And it also occurs to me that we've diddled poor Tom Farndon out of his moment of glory. The Star-sponsored event started in 1929, so does that mean we should cover 1929 to 1935 as well?

 

I have very little idea regarding these years, apart from I know Vic Huxley was the first speedway superstar and then Farndon became THE rider to beat sometime around 1933 and 1934, up to his tragic death which would have deprived him of the 1935 series. I also know Max Grosskreutz had a good 1935 season.

 

All the best

Rob

 

[BOBBATH]

I vote for Langton in 36-agree with all the others thru 50, then Lawson 1951, Young 52 and 53 , Moore 54 and 55.

[norbold]

In the meantime, we'd better let everyone else catch up, as we seem to have sprinted forward and covered all the years to 1955. And it also occurs to me that we've diddled poor Tom Farndon out of his moment of glory. The Star-sponsored event started in 1929, so does that mean we should cover 1929 to 1935 as well?

 

I have very little idea regarding these years, apart from I know Vic Huxley was the first speedway superstar and then Farndon became THE rider to beat sometime around 1933 and 1934, up to his tragic death which would have deprived him of the 1935 series. I also know Max Grosskreutz had a good 1935 season.

 

1929: Frank Arthur

1930-32: Vic Huxley

1933-1934: Tom Farndon

1935: (assuming Tom died before he got enough points): Bluey Wilkinson

 

 

I vote for Langton in 36-agree with all the others thru 50, then Lawson 1951, Young 52 and 53 , Moore 54 and 55.

Lawson 51? Are you assuming Jack Young wouldn't have got in to the GP that year?

[lucifer sam]

1935: (assuming Tom died before he got enough points): Bluey Wilkinson

 

Not Max Grosskreutz? He outscored Wilkinson by 20 points in the 1935 England v Australia tests, and then proved nigh-on unbeatable in the 1935/1936 Australia v England test matches.

 

Interestingly, Bluey Wilkinson's 15-point maximum in the 1936 World Final was onboard a bike borrowed from Grosskreutz, who was flying in the opening part of the 1936 season, but was then injured and missed the World Championship qualifying rounds.

 

As for 1929-1934, I really don't know much about these years.

 

All the best

Rob

[norbold]

The League averages for 1935 were:

Bluey Wilkinson: 10.57

Dick Case: 10.12

Tom Farndon: 9.74

Max Grosskreutz: 9.69

 

It's a close call I'd say between the three Australians. I have just been doing a lot of work on 1935 for my Tom Farndon book and I think Bluey would have shaded it, but all three were in great form that year. It could have been an Australian clean sweep. Though interestingly, of course, it was Frank Charles who actually won the Star Championship that year. (12th in the averages with 8.70)

[lucifer sam]

The League averages for 1935 were:

Bluey Wilkinson: 10.57

Dick Case: 10.12

Tom Farndon: 9.74

Max Grosskreutz: 9.69

 

It's a close call I'd say between the three Australians. I have just been doing a lot of work on 1935 for my Tom Farndon book and I think Bluey would have shaded it, but all three were in great form that year. It could have been an Australian clean sweep. Though interestingly, of course, it was Frank Charles who actually won the Star Championship that year. (12th in the averages with 8.70)

 

Norbold - OK, I bow to your superior knowledge regarding 1935.

 

So I think we need to let other people catch up, but so far we have:

 

1928 - Frank Arthur

1929 - Frank Arthur

1930 - Vic Huxley

1931 - Vic Huxley

1932 - Vic Huxley

1933 - Tom Farndon

1934 - Tom Farndon

1935 - Bluey Wilkinson

1936 - Eric Langton (ArnieG, Bobbath and Rob) or Bluey Wilkinson (Norbold)

1937 - Jack Milne

1938 - Bluey Wilkinson

1939 - Cordy Milne

1946 - Jack Parker

1947 - Vic Duggan

1948 - Vic Duggan

1949 - Jack Parker

1950 - Graham Warren

1951 - Jack Young (Rob / Norbold) or Aub Lawson (Bobbath)

1952 - Jack Young

1953 - Jack Young

1954 - Ronnie Moore

1955 - Ronnie Moore

 

Any disagreements with any of the above?

 

A lot of Australian winners in the above list.

 

We'll plough on with 1956 onwards after every has had a couple of days to discuss the above!! (which will allow allow me to dig out the Speedway Star rankings of the late 50s / early 60s, an idea of a BSF forum member, our very own speedyguy )

 

EDIT: 1928 now added after suggestion by Norbold. I think that's as far back as we can go, unless anyone has knowledgle of the 1923-1927 seasons in Australia.

 

All the best

Rob

Edited September 6, 2009 by lucifer sam

[norbold]

which will allow allow me to dig out the Speedway Star rankings of the late 50s / early 60s, an idea of a BSF forum member, our very own speedyguy

If you're going by the Speedway Star rankings I think that means it's all Ove Fundin from now on, apart from one Barry Briggs year.

 

P.S. we could add 1928 when the Gold Helmet was the top prize, which was actually run along GP lines. In which case 1928 would be Frank Arthur as he won the Gold Helmet in 1928, even though he left for home in early September. (He also won the Gold Gauntlet, Silver Sash and Silver Helmet.)

Edited September 6, 2009 by norbold

[lucifer sam]

If you're going by the Speedway Star rankings I think that means it's all Ove Fundin from now on, apart from one Barry Briggs year.

 

Well not JUST the Speedway Star rankings. But it's a useful guide, just as the Stenners books were. Interestingly Jim Stenner had Vic Duggan as No. 1 for 1946 (or rather, from around April 1946 to March 1947) for his Aussie form before he came back over to the UK.

 

Yes 1956 onwards is going to be Fundin dominated...

 

All the best

Rob

 

 

 

[norbold]

Yes 1956 onwards is going to be Fundin dominated...

Where's Star Ghost?

[star ghost]

I was going to put in a claim for Ove but thought that would be stating the obvious. The heading for this item is "World Champions that never were" but that could never mean Ove, the greatest ever past, present and future, but I would have loved seeing him ride against Jack Parker, Wilkinson, Milne and van Praag when such riders were in their prime. And Huxley, Farndon, Johnson and Grosskreutz would have been interesting opposition too.

[norbold]

I would have loved seeing him ride against Jack Parker, Wilkinson, Milne and van Praag when such riders were in their prime. And Huxley, Farndon, Johnson and Grosskreutz would have been interesting opposition too.

Yes, Ove would have beaten all of them...except our Tom of course.

[arnieg]

Norbold - OK, I bow to your superior knowledge regarding 1935.

 

So I think we need to let other people catch up, but so far we have:

 

1928 - Frank Arthur...

 

1951 - Jack Young (Rob / Norbold) or Aub Lawson (Bobbath)

....

Any disagreements with any of the above?

 

We'll plough on with 1956 onwards after every has had a couple of days to discuss the above!! (which will allow allow me to dig out the Speedway Star rankings of the late 50s / early 60s, an idea of a BSF forum member, our very own speedyguy )

 

 

 

All the best

Rob

Put me down for Lawson in 51,

 

and the Star Rankings are summarised here (on the Bob Andrews site):

 

http://www.geocities.com/robnade2001/WorldRatings.html

 

 

[norbold]

Put me down for Lawson in 51,

May I ask your rationale for this?

[BOBBATH]

After in depth review of Stenners for 1951-I hereby change my vote to Young from Lawson

[lucifer sam]

OK, time to get this going again?

 

1956-1963, could ANYONE have stopped Ove Fundin from taking eight GP titles on the bounce?

 

All the best

Rob

 

[norbold]

OK, time to get this going again?

 

1956-1963, could ANYONE have stopped Ove Fundin from taking eight GP titles on the bounce?

 

All the best

Rob

Briggo maybe.

[iris123]

All well and good up to this point.Not going to get into it too much.But now where exactly do we think these fictional GP's will take place?Because we are(well you two or three)are getting into the period where for instance Samorodov and later Plechanov showed they were a pretty god match for the western riders away from home.But would the western riders be able to match them if there were 3 or 4 GP's behind the iron curtain ,where things would have been made difficult for themno doubt.And that without the ability of the Russians and Poles....