BSI reinvent the Wheel

[fatface]

In the current format - every race counts.

 

It doesn't!

 

Going into the last GP 4 rider could be World Champion and posisbly 1 or 2 had a chance of 10th. That means 6 riders were intrested in the meting so any race witout these 6 was pointless, surely? NO beacause riders wnat to win every race and that woudl be the same wit the current or the old/future format!

 

It does!

 

Winning a GP means a lot. To Greg Hancock every race certainly counted last week.

[stevehone]

every race counted to most of the riders.... especially N Pedersen as he could intentionally lose a race so he avoided the better riders later on :evil:

a big problem in this format is knowing who you will meet in your next race up front... Jason Crump just went out to win each race, where Pedersen knew he had to get in weaker races.

 

if the format is the 16 rider, 20 heats, there is no coming 4th rather than 3rd just to avoid so-and-so as your rides are programmed and you need to get as many points as possible to get to the respective finals.

[salty]

My previous posting on this thread was a load of tosh as I was not aware that the plans were for '05 onwards.

One thing that does worry me is the doing away with qualifying rounds. Although they are a pain in the neck, it does mean that riders earn their position in the series. With 7 seeded places out of 16 the series will become a bit of a closed shop. Particularly if they use the seedings to ensure a wide range of nationalities are included.

[ezekiel]

I was only talking about this with Tom Thumb a few weeks ago, and that the GP series should revert back to the old formula and cut it down to 16 riders. If u don't believe me u can always ask TT! 8)

 

Great idea in my opinion, it'll be better for the series, better for the riders competing (which rider wants to travel around Europe for just two heats of speedway?), and better for the domestic leagues.

[fatface]

Great idea in my opinion, it'll be better for the series, better for the riders competing (which rider wants to travel around Europe for just two heats of speedway?), and better for the domestic leagues.

 

Its a nice sentiment to be concerned for riders having to travel so far for two rides. But this is our big showcase event, and I think it has to be geared toward spectators. That means every race meaning something.

 

Some Formula one drivers crash at the start of GPs, Some 100m athletes are eliminated in the first round of the Olympics, Some Footballers go to the World Cup and don't get a game. That's sport. Its tough, but as a spectator I wouldn't want it any other way.

[ezekiel]

I take your point falcace, but with the field being reduced to 16 riders it'll mean that you get rid of, without sounding harsh, those that are just making up the numbers. If you keep the current formula then you have to watch several heats containing sub-standard GP riders until they are eliminated and you get to the main event. It would be better if you could just cut out the pre main event and keep the current formula, but would spectators be willing to watch a GP if there were only about 15 heats? I don't think that I would.

 

So in order to make the series more competitive thorughout the field I see no other alternative than to cut the series down to 16 riders and revert back to the 5 rides per rider system...

[fatface]

Or possibly a 16 rider formula in which the first few races see elimination heats which get rid of just one rider (4th), give two another chance (3rd and 2nd) and one goes through? That might be a way of keeping around 20 heats? Or is that too complex?

[Kevin Meynell]

Or possibly a 16 rider formula in which the first few races see elimination heats which get rid of just one rider (4th), give two another chance (3rd and 2nd) and one goes through?

 

The problem with the 24-rider format is not so much the knockout aspect, but too many crap riders and having to endure the Pre-Main Event. It's also an issue for staging GPs outside Europe due to the costs of transporting all the riders.

 

16 or even 20 riders would be better, but unfortunately it's not possible to devise a good knockout format with sufficient heats. I think a return to the 16-rider, 20-heat format is sensible, but perhaps the top eight should qualify for knockout semi-finals as now, with the highest scorers having first choice of gate positions.

 

The old format with A-B-C-D Finals was reasonable, but I always thought the C and D Finals were a bit of waste of time.

[Kevin Meynell]

I loved the old World Finals but how many meaningless races were in a one off final.

 

I would say that the whole Pre-Main Event is meaningless in the current format. Ultimately though, it doesn't matter what format you use if the event is well promoted, and the racing sufficiently exciting. The 'boring' 16-heat, 20-heat format still managed to attract 100,000 fans to past World Finals, which is three times the number of the best attended GP to date!

[fatface]

I loved the old World Finals but how many meaningless races were in a one off final.

 

I would say that the whole Pre-Main Event is meaningless in the current format. Ultimately though, it doesn't matter what format you use if the event is well promoted, and the racing sufficiently exciting. The 'boring' 16-heat, 20-heat format still managed to attract 100,000 fans to past World Finals, which is three times the number of the best attended GP to date!

 

Don't really agree. Riders from the Pre-Event Main can win the GP - I know Nicki Pedersen is one who has certainly done this. I also think the format does matter - GP organisers have to appeal to people outside the sport not just those within, that means an easy-to-follow system in which every race counts.

 

Also, I do think harping back to "Wembley-100,000-one-off" is nothing more than a pleasant trip down memory lane. Like it or not, those days are gone. We live in a multi-media world where people's choice of entertainment has increased ten-fold. We have to change, the world won't change for us.

[Kevin Meynell]

Don't really agree. Riders from the Pre-Event Main can win the GP

 

Sure, but you also have to watch 40-year-old Hungarians and Andy Smith-types running consecutive lasts as well. You really need a format where all the riders start at the same stage.

 

Also, I do think harping back to "Wembley-100,000-one-off" is nothing more than a pleasant trip down memory lane.

 

I think you missed my point. I realise the world has changed, and I also realise that we'll probably never see 100,000 fans at a speedway meeting again (certainly not at Wembley). My point was that the format doesn't really matter in the grand scale of things if the sport is otherwise popular and/or well promoted. Does the casual spectator really think or care about such issues? I don't think so!

 

I don't have a problem with the knockout format per se (provided it's used for a series rather than one-off events), but there's too much mediocrity in the SGP at the moment, and you need to involve the top riders from the beginning of the meeting.

[Jeff.]

I loved the old World Finals but how many meaningless races were in a one off final.

 

I would say that the whole Pre-Main Event is meaningless in the current format. Ultimately though, it doesn't matter what format you use if the event is well promoted, and the racing sufficiently exciting. The 'boring' 16-heat, 20-heat format still managed to attract 100,000 fans to past World Finals, which is three times the number of the best attended GP to date!

 

Kevin as Falcace pointed out there are no meaningless races in a GP, every rider in every race can still win the meeting, however unlikely. I attended many one off finals over the years and in all of them no more than 5 or 6 riders were ever likely to win, and if you were remembering them as they really were you would remember that a typical one off final contained more no hopers than any GP thanks to the 5 continental final qualifiers, and yes I am aware that on occassions these riders have won. An easy to understand format is vital if you want to attract casual fans, they maybe don't want, or dont know how, to fill in a programme which made the old format hard to follow. But Kevin the real proof is in the fact that the old one off finals had fallen to the extent that only a few thousand were watching them in stadiums such as Pocking or Vojens, Yes they still appealed to the hardcore fans but no casual observers whereas the GP format, like it or not, does

[Kevin Meynell]

Jeff,

 

Kevin as Falcace pointed out there are no meaningless races in a GP

 

The heats during the Pre-Main Event where the top 8 'race' for gate positions are meaningless, but wasn't really my point which was that 24-riders means too much mediocrity at the moment. I'm not trying to make a comparison with the old format, simply making the observation.

 

in all of them no more than 5 or 6 riders were ever likely to win

 

The problem with the current format is that its designed to 'randomise' the results as much as possible. Even the 'fairer' elements such as higher-placed riders being able to choose their gate positions in the Semi-Finals and Final were removed in the past couple of years. Sure the format is fine if you like a lottery, but it doesn't ensure that the best rider wins. Of course, that may be more important in the name of entertainment.

 

that a typical one off final contained more no hopers than any GP thanks to the 5 continental final qualifiers

 

Yes, but that was down to politics rather than any fault of the format. If the qualifying system hadn't been so skewed, you might have stood a chance of having the best 16 riders in the Final.

 

An easy to understand format is vital if you want to attract casual fans

 

I don't know what's difficult about understanding that every rider meets every other rider over the course of the meeting, scoring 3-2-1-0 in each heat. If people can understand the complexities of cricket, I'm sure they can follow that.

 

they maybe don't want, or dont know how, to fill in a programme which made the old format hard to follow

 

I don't think filling in a programme under the current format is particularly easy either, and you didn't have to write a rider's name umpteen times in the past either.

 

But Kevin the real proof is in the fact that the old one off finals had fallen to the extent that only a few thousand were watching them in stadiums such as Pocking or Vojens

 

Yes, but that was nothing to do with the heat format. It was down to a general decline in the following of team speedway declining (something for BSI to note), and the Finals being held in the middle-of-nowhere. Norden started the rot, Pocking finished it.

 

Yes they still appealed to the hardcore fans but no casual observers whereas the GP format, like it or not, does

 

I still say the actual format used is a secondary consideration If an event is sufficiently well-promoted, people will still come however many riders you have, or whether there is a knockout format or not.

 

As I said, I'm somewhat ambivalent about whether a knockout format is used, but I certainly don't think they've got it right at the moment.

[Mylor]

Sigh....................... :roll:

 

You can't deny that, for those who don't even know that a programme exists, the TV viewers new to the sport, the present format is about as good as it's gonna get.

 

They know that every rider in every heat can win the GP and they don't need a programme to follow that.

 

As for mediocrity and the opening few heats, some of these riders do get through and add a bit of spice to the main event. Would you deny the likes of Martin Dugard a GP win? Bit like the FA Cup, who'd be interested in that if it was restricted to the Premiership clubs?

 

We aired the subject of gate positions last year. All the old format proved was that TR was the best off gate 1..............it was tedious to watch and we nearly lost Mrs Mylor and probably many others to the sport which she'd only just rediscovered after getting bored watching someone called Schumacher for a few years.

[Kevin Meynell]

Would you deny the likes of Martin Dugard a GP win?

 

The Dugards are not the issue - it's the Andy Smiths and old Hungarians coming their predictable consecutive lasts that are the problem. Still, if people think the Pre-Main Event provides good entertainment, then who am I to argue?

 

they don't need a programme to follow that.

 

I would argue that it's harder to watch cricket, golf and Formula 1 without a scorecard (lap chart in the case of F1), but you let television take care of that.

 

We aired the subject of gate positions last year. All the old format proved was that TR was the best off gate 1.

 

Which demonstrates the inadequacies of the knockout format. Under the old format, riders at least had to start off every gate during the course of the meeting.

 

Okay, so the ballot for gate positions makes things less predictable, but you won't convince me that it's a fair method.

 

One solution might be to divide the 24 riders in 4 groups of 6, and have them ride 2 heats each (e.g. Ht1 - 1,2,3,4, Ht2 - 5,6,2,1, Ht3 - 4,3,6,5) off an inside and outside gate. That would result in 12 heats which could replace the Pre-Main Event. The top four in each group would then qualify for the Main Event which is run on a knockout basis as now.

 

I've just thought of that off the top of my head, so I'm sure someone better could be devised with a bit more thought.

[Kevin Meynell]

They know that every rider in every heat can win the GP

 

I don't think anyone is seriously suggesting to revert to having the final placings decided on the basis of the old format alone. I think the best solution would be to have the top eight after the 20 heats, qualifying for knockout semi-finals.

 

You will then give every rider the chance to start off each gate, but you're unlikely to have many dead heats as most will still be in with a chance of qualifying for the Semi-Finals.

[Kevin Meynell]

Well there are going to be changes to the SGP. The FIM Biennial Session confirms the following...

 

Individual Speedway World Championships: qualifying system for 2004: the format of all the Individual Speedway World Championships will be modified, with the addition of 3 heats. It will now consist of 20 heats plus 2 semi-finals and 1 final - The number of riders qualified from the 2004 Grand Final to the 2005 Speedway Grand Prix Series will be 2 – There will be no qualifying system to the Speedway Grand Prix as from 2005. The riders will be qualified according to their previous year’s classification or nominated by the Speedway Grand Prix Commission in accordance with the promoter. (As from 2005, the Speedway Grand Prix Series will be run with 16 riders instead of the current 24).

 

Speedway World Cup: the final tournament will be held with 8 National teams (instead of 12), in two qualifying Events, one Race-Off and the Final; all events will be run with 4 teams (instead of 5). Consequently, a second pre-qualifying round has been added to the calendar.