Parsloes 1928 nearly Posted March 10, 2009 Report Share Posted March 10, 2009 Don't know about Wimbledon but, strictly speaking, Crystal Palace was in Kent. Crystal Palace park is in the Borough of Bromley, which became a London Borough in 1965, prior to that it was part of the Garden Of England. Are you sure..? I know Bromley is/was in Kent but I'd have said that Crystal Palace was more likely to have been (back then..) in Surrey..??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norbold Posted March 10, 2009 Report Share Posted March 10, 2009 (edited) Wikipedia goes along with Crystal Palace having been in Kent: "Several localities claim to be the area to which [Crystal Palace] was relocated. The street address of the Crystal Palace was Sydenham S.E (SE26 after 1917), but the actual building and parklands were in Penge. At the time of relocation most of the buildings were in Croydon, as were a majority of the grounds. In 1899, the county boundary was moved, transferring the entire site to Penge Urban District in Kent. The site is now within the Crystal Palace Ward of the London Borough of Bromley." Edited March 10, 2009 by norbold Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DK Rides Again Posted March 10, 2009 Report Share Posted March 10, 2009 Wikipedia goes along with Crystal Palace having been in Kent: "Several localities claim to be the area to which [Crystal Palace] was relocated. The street address of the Crystal Palace was Sydenham S.E (SE26 after 1917), but the actual building and parklands were in Penge. At the time of relocation most of the buildings were in Croydon, as were a majority of the grounds. In 1899, the county boundary was moved, transferring the entire site to Penge Urban District in Kent. The site is now within the Crystal Palace Ward of the London Borough of Bromley." Part of the problem with Crystal Palace, as a place, is that I'm not certain it even exists. As that, unusually accurate, Wiki quote says, the park is in Penge (and always has been, despite the fact that for many years the idea that it was in Sydenham was the popular currency) and, in fact, at the time that Joseph Paxton negotiated for use of the park for the relocation of the Palace, it was known as Penge Place, at Sydenham Hill. It would seem that referring to the area as 'Crystal Palace' started out as a popular colloquialism and just drifted into universal use; I haven't looked very hard, but I haven't seen any references that can tell me if or when it became official. If you live around here, it's always been a bit difficult to pin down, because the area straddles five boroughs and at least three postal areas, and it seems to be constantly moving; since coming here in 1973, we've had the postcode changed three times (and some postcode recognition software still doesn't accept our current one, which can cause havoc with things like credit searches and online shopping) and for the first few years, the whole house was in Lewisham, except the kitchen, which was in Lewisham! Anyway, the fact is that Crystal Palace speedway track, while it was operating, was firmly in Kent. As an aside, I've recently seen some aerial pictures of the park grounds taken in about 1950; I was under the impression that the track was pretty much destroyed by the anti-aircraft installations, but these pictures show, plain as day, what looks like an intact circuit, complete with concrete starting grid and grandstands. Seems a shame that it couldn't have been resurrected to take advantage of the post war boom. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parsloes 1928 nearly Posted March 10, 2009 Report Share Posted March 10, 2009 As that, unusually accurate, Wiki quote says, the park is in Penge (and always has been, despite the fact that for many years the idea that it was in Sydenham was the popular currency) and, in fact, at the time that Joseph Paxton negotiated for use of the park for the relocation of the Palace, it was known as Penge Place, at Sydenham Hill. One of the extraordinary things about south London (one which marks it out as totally different from East London certainly...) is the amazing number of 'places' there... There are just an prolific number of areas all with their own place names and all still used, all around Crystal Palace... Penge, Sydenham, Anerley, Norwood, Thornton Heath, Selhurst...: and as RKRA says, that excludes Crystal Palace itself which isn't really an area name at all...!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DK Rides Again Posted March 11, 2009 Report Share Posted March 11, 2009 One of the extraordinary things about south London (one which marks it out as totally different from East London certainly...) is the amazing number of 'places' there... There are just an prolific number of areas all with their own place names and all still used, all around Crystal Palace... Penge, Sydenham, Anerley, Norwood, Thornton Heath, Selhurst...: and as RKRA says, that excludes Crystal Palace itself which isn't really an area name at all...!!! I think you'll find there's plenty of area names still in use in East London (and every other part of London) but the main thing that effected my area was the arrival of the railway first, and then the Palace. Back in the mid 1800s, there were a lot of little villages that had grown up to take advantage of the industry created by the 'Great North Wood', but the area was still pretty sparsely populated; what joined them all together was the tourist industry that grew around the Palace. Just to use one example, in 1851 the population of Sydenham was 4500, ten years later (the Palace reopened in 1854) it was up to nearly 11000 and, by 1900, it was 40000; the same thing happened to all the other nearby villages such as Penge, Anerley and Norwood (which gained it's name as a contraction of the previously mentioned North Wood). I think we've gone OT far enough to mention another little aside connected with my adopted area of London; did you know that Southend-on-sea is so named to differentiate it from Southend in London? Ten points, a gold star and a 'tick VG' to anyone that can name what Southend is called now Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parsloes 1928 nearly Posted March 11, 2009 Report Share Posted March 11, 2009 I think you'll find there's plenty of area names still in use in East London (and every other part of London) but the main thing that effected my area was the arrival of the railway first, and then the Palace. DKRA - I know East London VERY well and South London too, and I can assure you that I'd estimate there are four times (perhaps more..) as many place names in a 15 mile radius south of the river as there are east of the City!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DK Rides Again Posted March 11, 2009 Report Share Posted March 11, 2009 But, despite your extensive knowledge, you don't know where Southend is............ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parsloes 1928 nearly Posted March 11, 2009 Report Share Posted March 11, 2009 But, despite your extensive knowledge, you don't know where Southend is............ Ah, I was saying my extensive knowledge is of EAST London!!! My Dad was the Sarff London expert...!! 'Southend' I'd say must've been in the Lewisham/New Cross vicinity...??!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Blanchard Posted March 11, 2009 Report Share Posted March 11, 2009 Ten points, a gold star and a 'tick VG' to anyone that can name what Southend is called now The one in London? Do you mean that little area just opposite the little boating lake at Southend Lane, and in between Bellingham & Downham in SE6, including Whitefoot Lane, just off the Bromley Road? Not sure what its called now though - it comes under Bromley, (Greater London) I think but everywhere around it seems to come under Lewisham or Beckenham. My wife lived all her single life just off Anerley Park close to the back entrance to the park. Her dad use to go up the 'Palace' for what he referred to as 'Cinder' racing. Any chance DKRA that you get get some scans off those old aerial pictures you mention and post them? They would be very interesting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DK Rides Again Posted March 11, 2009 Report Share Posted March 11, 2009 The one in London? Do you mean that little area just opposite the little boating lake at Southend Lane, and in between Bellingham & Downham in SE6, including Whitefoot Lane, just off the Bromley Road? Not sure what its called now though - it comes under Bromley, (Greater London) I think but everywhere around it seems to come under Lewisham or Beckenham. My wife lived all her single life just off Anerley Park close to the back entrance to the park. Her dad use to go up the 'Palace' for what he referred to as 'Cinder' racing. Any chance DKRA that you get get some scans off those old aerial pictures you mention and post them? They would be very interesting. That's near enough Jim, it's actually been 'absorbed' into Downham now, but you still occasionally hear people refering to Southend village. I'm not sure what the form is with the pictures; I haven't asked permission, but they are watermarked with copyright details, if it's a problem with the mods, I'll disable the link. You can see them here They aren't specifically of the speedway track, more an overview of the site, but the track is pretty clear. Also, the date's a bit vague, definitely post war and 1950 is a 'best guess'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Blanchard Posted March 11, 2009 Report Share Posted March 11, 2009 That's near enough Jim, it's actually been 'absorbed' into Downham now, but you still occasionally hear people refering to Southend village. I'm not sure what the form is with the pictures; I haven't asked permission, but they are watermarked with copyright details, if it's a problem with the mods, I'll disable the link. You can see them here They aren't specifically of the speedway track, more an overview of the site, but the track is pretty clear. Also, the date's a bit vague, definitely post war and 1950 is a 'best guess'. Well its too late now DKRA as I have down loaded them. I owe you an apology as in the past when this subject was raised, I was given family advice that the speedway track was actually further north of the park but its almost on the site of the new athletics track and very close to what was known as the Anerley ramp, on the road race track where the sleepers on the outside were a familiar place for my brother to end the day in. So apologises again to you - and thanks for letting us see them, fascinating stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DK Rides Again Posted March 11, 2009 Report Share Posted March 11, 2009 Well its too late now DKRA as I have down loaded them. I owe you an apology as in the past when this subject was raised, I was given family advice that the speedway track was actually further north of the park but its almost on the site of the new athletics track and very close to what was known as the Anerley ramp, on the road race track where the sleepers on the outside were a familiar place for my brother to end the day in. So apologises again to you - and thanks for letting us see them, fascinating stuff. No apologies needed Jim, before I ever saw any pictures I found it difficult to work out where it was, there's so much conflicting information around, mostly from misplaced memories; I've had someone tell me recently, (from his personal recall) that the road race circuit was the home of the British GP for many years, both pre and post war, despite the fact it's a matter of recorded fact that Crystal Palace never held the British GP in it's history! Still, I suppose it was a long time ago now, I guess if you're old enough to have seen the CP speedway team in action, just waking up everyday is a bonus, nevermind being able to remember it in detail!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iris123 Posted March 12, 2009 Report Share Posted March 12, 2009 Well its too late now DKRA as I have down loaded them. I owe you an apology as in the past when this subject was raised, I was given family advice that the speedway track was actually further north of the park but its almost on the site of the new athletics track and very close to what was known as the Anerley ramp, on the road race track where the sleepers on the outside were a familiar place for my brother to end the day in. So apologises again to you - and thanks for letting us see them, fascinating stuff. If my memory is right Jim....it was me that you disagreed with on the spot the track was in.....but no need to apologise..it is one of those things....you always disagree with me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Midland Red Posted March 12, 2009 Report Share Posted March 12, 2009 This article is quite illuminating about Crystal Palace http://www.bmrc.co.uk/championships/cpalace.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norbold Posted March 12, 2009 Report Share Posted March 12, 2009 I still have my 25,000 word history of Crystal Palace Speedway waiting to find a home.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Blanchard Posted March 12, 2009 Report Share Posted March 12, 2009 (edited) If my memory is right Jim....it was me that you disagreed with on the spot the track was in.....but no need to apologise..it is one of those things....you always disagree with me I still have my 25,000 word history of Crystal Palace Speedway waiting to find a home.... Well, Doug I am sure your memory will be better than mine - so if that is the case; I apologise Is there no possibility Norman that you cannot do a sort of self publication with all that material on Crystal Palace Speedway as did Grachan and also Arnieg I believe. Whom both I am sure would be able to advise you how to go about it… Seems such a waste if it does not see the light of day. It could be marketed on all the forums, based on mail order sales and also sold via the museum. I could help with a web site (for a free copy -signed of course) for it etc. What do you think? Edited March 12, 2009 by Jim Blanchard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
speedyguy Posted March 12, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 12, 2009 Years ago - at least 20 - I met Nat Gould at the Crystal Palace. He rode speedway there in the 1930s - the open meetings. He said that the layout of the athletics track was virtually the same as the old speedway. He based his comments on the landscape of the area, especially what outside properties could be seen, and also in regard to where trees were positioned in the park. There's also some comments on the Crystal Palace speedway history to be found on http://londonspeedways.proboards.com/index.cgi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
norbold Posted March 12, 2009 Report Share Posted March 12, 2009 Is there no possibility Norman that you cannot do a sort of self publication with all that material on Crystal Palace Speedway as did Grachan and also Arnieg I believe. Whom both I am sure would be able to advise you how to go about it… Seems such a waste if it does not see the light of day. It could be marketed on all the forums, based on mail order sales and also sold via the museum. I could help with a web site (for a free copy -signed of course) for it etc. What do you think? Self publish!? After 21 books being published by bona fide publishers and another two currently under contract. It goes against the grain a bit, Jim! Also, I'm really not sure it would sell that well to cover costs. I'm thinking up other avenues at the moment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
speedyguy Posted March 15, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 15, 2009 A massive job currently underway on http://londonspeedways.proboards.com/index.cgi is listing the team squads for the London clubs. One section already finished is 1929! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
speedyguy Posted March 22, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 22, 2009 When debate takes place in regard to speedway films, it usually involves 'Once A Jolly Swagman.' In 1951, there was another speedway film 'There Is Another Sun' featuring Maxwell Reed and Laurence Harvey. The topic is currently underway on http://londonspeedways.proboards.com/index.cgi The main thrust of the debate is 'were the action shots taken at Walthamstow'? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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