Idea For Sgp / World Final

[barrow boy]

Would need some tweaking, but an awesome idea! Get a letter to BSI as soon as possible! .. They prbs wouldnt read it though, would they?!

Oh they'll read it but they will take no notice of it and if your lucky you might get a note back thanking you for your interest etc.

[barrow boy]

Some of Pete's points are Ok such as national champions qualifying but I would restrict it to the nations that qualified for the previous years SWC final. I also consider that the SGP World Championship may benefit by reintroducing some more meaningfull qualifying championships i.e Overseas/Scandinavian/European etc. I also agree with his and others' view that there are too many GP's but the jury is out at present on Pete's suggestion of condensing the series into just one week. perhaps one a month would be better? I would also be inclined to have the SWC every 2 years.

[ballinger]

I would also be inclined to have the SWC every 2 years.

 

I 100% per cent agree with this, but again TV contracts have been sold for 4 events per year, so SGP and SWC = 15 events per season

[Humphrey Appleby]

Regretably though for BSI they have sold years worth of TV contracts with a minimum of 11 events per year

 

Although strangely, the television contracts seem to be falling in value.

 

To the repetitive nature of the current SGP calendar BSI should IMO be actively persuing more attractive ways of filling their 11 events

 

The whole thing peaked about 5-6 years ago, and since then has lacked much in the way of imagination. Too much complacency, or too many other distractions perhaps...?

 

[LOL]

I think one thing to consider in the GP series as it is now,with having so many meetings would be to drop your worst score,it may make it more interesting?

[Gemini]

Or in Nicki P's case drop his three highest scores to make it even more interesting.

[HenryW]

The sudden death final race was brought into the closest thing we have now to a proper World Championship, the U-21 World Final - delivered a largely-seen-as-unfair result and was scrapped.

The Premier League title last year was NOT decided by a play-off and won't be again in '09; so that (also unfair) system has been scrapped in Britain's largest league.

 

So tell me again, that these things when brought in are "here to stay"...!!!!!

Interestingly, both the examples that you gave were things that led to unfair results in one-off events, and they were ditched.

 

That wouldn't suggest a rush back to the old one off World Final was on the cards!

 

Some of Pete's points are Ok such as national champions qualifying but I would restrict it to the nations that qualified for the previous years SWC final.

Only problem is...look at the National Champions. Whilst Chris Holder would be an interesting addition, I really can't see that including Magnus Zetterstrom and Adam Skornicki in the SGP would have the fans flocking back! (should I point out that both of these weak and unlikely National champions won in one-off National Finals?)

 

To the repetitive nature of the current SGP calendar BSI should IMO be actively persuing more attractive ways of filling their 11 events, with the 'Nordic' being bumped in favour of placing SGPs at active Speedway centres such as Gorican and Togliatti.

Although I don't agree with the choice, I think it's probably a little harsh suggesting that Gorican and Togliatti are more active speedway centres than Vojens!!

 

Whilst the SGP IS looking like quite a closed shop, the problem is that the top guys really don't change much from year to year. To have a credible series, you HAVE to have the best in there, and that means that the names at the top wont change that much. It's the same in most sports run along similar lines.

To me, the problem is that 16 riders just isn't enough to give opportunities for new riders coming along.

You saw more interesting results when there were 24 riders involved, but that was ditched for financial reasons, which does obviously call into question the viability of the series.

 

[ballinger]

Although I don't agree with the choice, I think it's probably a little harsh suggesting that Gorican and Togliatti are more active speedway centres than Vojens!!

 

To be clear, I wasn't suggesting that.

 

I dont believe anyone wouldn't agree that either Gorican or Togliatti are active speedway centres, but similarly Vojens is too.

 

My point was that to have Vojens staging an SGP titled "Nordic" just 2 weeks after Malilla stages a "Scandivanian" SGP is IMO totally ridiculous.

 

What next a second GB round titled the "Commonwealth" SGP?

 

My point was more that 11 SGP made up of 9 unique countries plus a European and a Scandinavian has more credibilty than 11 SGP made up of just 8 staging countries, or 11 unique countries would hold more credibility still.

 

PS : Just as an aside, what#'s happened to the Super Prix in 2009 ? No mention of it so far ! quelle surprise

Edited December 29, 2008 by ballinger

[Humphrey Appleby]

Only problem is...look at the National Champions. Whilst Chris Holder would be an interesting addition, I really can't see that including Magnus Zetterstrom and Adam Skornicki in the SGP would have the fans flocking back! (should I point out that both of these weak and unlikely National champions won in one-off National Finals?)

 

Since the SGP was introduced, the various national championships (at least in the major countries) have not been taken as seriously as they once were. If they promised the reward of a SGP place, perhaps they'd be more prestigious and therefore be harder fought.

 

That said, I don't think you could seed the national champions of any more than the top 4-6 countries, as the quality of the champions would rapidly drop off after that.

 

It's the same in most sports run along similar lines.

 

It is, but as you say, there's usually more than 16 competitors as well. I'm certainly not one to suggest the solution is to return to a one-off World Final, but I certainly had more interest in the World Championship when you didn't know which 16 riders would qualify each year. Yes, certain riders always made it, but there was usually the odd shock and/or unknown rider to add variety.

 

The SGP is now so predictable that even Mrs Appleby knows the names of all the riders, and that Scott Nicholls never does very well. I think that sums it up.

[Humphrey Appleby]

My point was more that 11 SGP made up of 9 unique countries plus a European and a Scandinavian has more credibilty than 11 SGP made up of just 8 staging countries, or 11 unique countries would hold more credibility still.

 

I'd say the SGP should optimally be a maximum of 8 rounds, with no more than one GP per country, and 1-2 GPs outside of Europe (e.g. Australia and the US). Of course, the reality appears to be that far from taking the sport to new heights as many soothsayers predicted, BSI are scratching around for cheap places to stage the requisite number of GPs which won't be a financial disaster.

 

I recently read an interesting article by, I think, Jeff Scott who pointed out that BSI have actually only increased average attendances by 15% compared to the SGP before they were involved. Of course, it's now also staged live on television, but I suspect that may well have happened anyway in this day and age.

 

The SGP is increasingly looking a bit like Woolworths did in its latter years...

Edited December 29, 2008 by Humphrey Appleby

[Parsloes 1928 nearly]

Interestingly, both the examples that you gave were things that led to unfair results in one-off events, and they were ditched.

That wouldn't suggest a rush back to the old one off World Final was on the cards!

 

No - the only way you get an "unfair result" in an indiv. meeting is the crazy idea of having a 'Final' after everyone has met each other across the 20 heats..

If the World Final was so unfair how come Ivan Mauger won it six times, Fundin 5 times; Briggo four times, Olsen, 3 times.. (and between them finished countless other times on the rostrum..): were these riders not the best in the world..??!!!

[HenryW]

No - the only way you get an "unfair result" in an indiv. meeting is the crazy idea of having a 'Final' after everyone has met each other across the 20 heats..

I'm not convinced that's the only way.

I've seen 20 heat matches won by riders that certainly weren't the best on the night due to many factors, such as controversial exclusions, luck with gate positions as conditions changed, engine failures, etc.

 

Even discounting these anomalies, you are still only finding the best rider on one day, on one track with one set of conditions....so there is still plenty of scope for "the best" not to come out on top.

 

Having several rounds doesn't entirely remove all of these factors, but it does lessen their impact and make it more likely that the "best" will rise to the top.

Of course, by doing that, you are inherently making the final result more predictable...just like the top two in the English Premier League is far easier to predict than the top two in the FA Cup!

 

If the World Final was so unfair how come Ivan Mauger won it six times, Fundin 5 times; Briggo four times, Olsen, 3 times.. (and between them finished countless other times on the rostrum..): were these riders not the best in the world..??!!!

I can't speak with any authority as those were before my time, and I only have a few matches from each year that were covered by TV to make a judgment on, so I bow to your superior knowledge in telling me whether they were indeed the very best in the exact years that they won the title!

 

However the guys who were consistently at the top of the sport would obviously still be more likely to win more Finals than others. The one off final doesn't ensure an unfair result, it just makes it more likely than having combined scores over multiple rounds.

 

From the years where I am more familiar with rider form, I would suggest that 1983, 1990, 1991, 1992 and 1994 probably didn't give the title to the best rider in World (and I probably should also include a couple of the years that Erik won it, but I am too much of a fan of his to do that! )

 

The most obvious one there being the 1983 Title. No matter how much anyone loved the old format for the excitement and drama it provided (not that there was any excitement ON the track that day), there is no way that you can ever argue that Egon Muller was the World's best speedway rider in 1983.

He was the best on that one day on that one track, of that there is no question, but there is no way you can claim him to be the best rider that year!

[The Know]

No - the only way you get an "unfair result" in an indiv. meeting is the crazy idea of having a 'Final' after everyone has met each other across the 20 heats..

If the World Final was so unfair how come Ivan Mauger won it six times, Fundin 5 times; Briggo four times, Olsen, 3 times.. (and between them finished countless other times on the rostrum..): were these riders not the best in the world..??!!!

Maybe they were lucky See the needle is still stuck

[lucifer sam]

From the years where I am more familiar with rider form, I would suggest that 1983, 1990, 1991, 1992 and 1994 probably didn't give the title to the best rider in World (and I probably should also include a couple of the years that Erik won it, but I am too much of a fan of his to do that! )

 

HenryW, I have to say it would have been bloody boring had there been a GP series from 1983 onwards. Yes, Hans Nielsen would have won a lot more individual titles (maybe even into double figures), but I got great pleasure from attending the majority of the World Finals between 1981 and 1991 and wouldn't swap that for another few titles for Hans.

 

Most of the World Champions under the one-off system were highly deserving - they weren't many "fluke" winners. And Jerzy Szczakiel & Egon Muller are much better riders than they are often given credit for - and actually they were probably better riders than Freddie Williams (only a World Champion because the meeting was held on his own track) and Gary Havelock (probably the worst ever rider to become World Champion).

 

I'm really starting to miss the old one-off final, the GP series has started to get a bit boring in the last few years. Unfortunately I think we're stuck with it.

 

All the best

Rob

Edited December 29, 2008 by lucifer sam

[HenryW]

Most of the World Champions under the one-off system were highly deserving - they weren't many "fluke" winners. And Jerzy Szczakiel & Egon Muller are much better riders than they are often given credit for - and actually they were probably better riders than Freddie Williams (only a World Champion because the meeting was held on his own track) and Gary Havelock (probably the worst ever rider to become World Champion).

I agree that there weren't many fluke champions, and agree that the one off finals were often very entertaining. There is also nothing to say that with a GP series in place, the riders who won the titles in the years that I mentioned wouldn't still have come out on top.

For example, if there hadn't been a GP series during his career, you would probably have said that Leigh Adams would have been a World Champion under a GP format...but we all know that he doesn't translate his normal form to SGP form.

 

Quite simply, from a purely sporting perspective I find the GP series a much more satisfactory way to determine the World Champion.

 

I certainly don't think that the current system is perfect, as I already mentioned I would like to see the inclusion of more riders for one thing, but I believe that it is an improvement over what was there before.

 

Finally...I haven't got a clue about Freddie Williams abilities, but I would strongly disagree with the suggestion that Egon Muller was a better speedway rider and more deserving champion than Gary Havelock!

[lucifer sam]

Finally...I haven't got a clue about Freddie Williams abilities, but I would strongly disagree with the suggestion that Egon Muller was a better speedway rider and more deserving champion than Gary Havelock!

 

Henry - you should look beyond performances in Britain. Muller was a lot better than Havelock.

 

All the best

Rob

[HenryW]

Henry - you should look beyond performances in Britain. Muller was a lot better than Havelock.

Oooh! That was a bit patronising, was it not?

I can assure you that I do look beyond British results.

I also still believe that Havelock was a far better speedway rider than Muller!

 

[Thischarmingman]

Muller was a lot better than Havelock.

 

All the best

Rob

 

I'm glad people have different opinions, would be boring otherwise, but that comment is absolutely staggering.

[HenryW]

I'm glad people have different opinions, would be boring otherwise, but that comment is absolutely staggering.

I'm glad I wasn't the only one thinking that...I was starting to question my sanity for a bit there

[MattK]

I love these threads were people put forward their very valid ideas for the SGP and SWC yet you always get the rose-tinted dinosaurs crawling out from where they hide (presumably a cave) to diktat the virtues of the one-off World Final.

 

Personally I think the SGP is excellent. I have watched my highlights DVD and the racing is as good as any of the one-off Finals but with 11 rounds you get a far better variety of tracks and conditions. Frankly as has been said before, no modern sport has a "one-off" world championship, from F1 to football and everything in between.

 

As for Joe's initial suggest, I'd like to see something done with the British Championship where it is run over a weekend with qualifying rounds on the Friday and Saturday and the final on the Sunday. With the right facilities, camping etc it could become a proper speedway weekender allowing fans to see a whole spectrum of riders in the space of a few days.