Promotion & Relegation. It could work...

[Kevin Meynell]

There's absolutely no reason why Edinburgh couldn't represent Scotland in the European Club Championship

 

Scotland does not have separate representation on the FIM or UEM, so that's currently a non-starter. Yes, there have been Scottish teams in the past, but they were not officially recognised at world level (an explanation of this can be found at http://www.speedway-faq.org/british.html#gbteam if anyone's interested).

 

If we want to be politically correct, we could equally make the case for Newport representing Wales. Unfortunately, British speedway is too small (and insignificant) to start breaking into individual entities.

[Mylor]

........but the top league is hardly overwhelmed with numbers at the moment. The priority must be to ensure there are at least approximately equal numbers in both the BEL and BPL before we start worrying about enforced movements between the different levels of competition.

 

For others following this thread and as this has been mentioned several times now, at no point have I mentioned forcing any club to accept promotion and relegation.

 

As I said above:-

..............but I'm slowly coming round to the idea that it would only come about when teams in the 'lower' division(s) start hammering at the door of the 'higher' division to be let in.

 

........In reality, I suspect you need a enlarged BEL pitched at a slight lower-level than now, with the rest of the BPL teams running at about the same level..

 

This ties in quite nicely with your first point Kevin. Have you considered the effect of one rider, one club on the size of the EL and the willingness of PL teams to move up? I'm sure you've read my other posts on this.

 

Scotland does not have separate representation

 

I don't think I suggested they did. They could represent Scotland in the ECC in the same way that Poole could represent Dorset.

Edited March 15, 2006 by Mylor

[Kevin Meynell]

at no point have I mentioned forcing any club to accept promotion and relegation.

 

You can say that teams always have the option to decline promotion, but what happens if a BPL team wants to be promoted whilst a BEL team doesn't want to be relegated? It would be ludicrous to force a team to run at a lower level unless there was demand for places in the top-league; a situation that hasn't occurred since 1984!

 

This ties in quite nicely with your first point Kevin. Have you considered the effect of one rider, one club on the size of the EL and the willingness of PL teams to move up?

 

In a perfect world, it should only be one-rider, one team, but unfortunately the speedway world is far from perfect. The reason that doubling-up was introduced, was because so few BPL riders were prepared to take the plunge in the BEL, and it was supposed to be a way of letting them test the water,

 

Quite honestly, I don't see anything wrong with doubling-up per se. It's nothing new (it used to happen with designated No.8s in the past), and it's not a problem provided teams from different leagues don't ride against each other. Unfortunately, what's made the situation farcical is the introduction of doubling-down, and allowing doubling-up in an inter-league competition (i.e. the BLC). That is totally wrong.

 

This aside, I think doubling-up will be necessary if a squad system is ever to replace the guest system; something that I see as the most important change that speedway can make. It's clear that teams can't afford to have riders sitting around doing nothing, so the reality would have to be that teams only sign 7 or 8 full-time riders. The remaining riders in the squad would then normally ride for another team, but could be called-up as necessary. [More thoughts on how a squad system might work can be found at: http://www.meynell.com/speedway-articles/s...d-systems.html]

[25yearfan]

I know prmotion and relegation was unsucessfully tried in the ealy 90's when clubs who had previously agreed didn't want to go through with it. Eg: Swindon in 1991 wouldn't go down into the 2nd Division but eventually in 1993 dropped down anyway!

Peterborough wouldn't go up after winning the 2nd Division in 1992 but since 1995 have only had 1 year outside the top flight!

 

Regardless of what happened above, promotion and relegation in speedways Elite and Premier Leagues would give the sport more credibility with the media and non speedway followers might give the sport a look in. Also the extra excitment generated by teams battling against relegation and those trying for promotion would add an extra dimension to affairs.

 

I think the only way we will see such rulings brought back into British speedway is if big sponsorship was found that would make it more desirable for clubs to compete in the Elite League rather than the Prmier League.

 

Look back at the sports high level glory years of the late 40s and early 50s when speedway seriously rivaled football and enjoyed huge attendances and you'll see promotion and relegation operated sucessfully, due mainly to the high levels of profits being made. The introduction of entertainment tax and decline of the sport from the mid 50's onwards signaled the end of promo and releg.

 

Big sponsorship would also see more tracks opening up around the country.

[HenryW]

I have only just noticed this thread and thought I would add a few comments.

 

Why do we think that we need Promotion and Relegation?

If you look to the American sports scene you will see that (as far as I am aware) the NFL, NBA, NHL and MLB don't have any form of promotion and relegation. There are plenty other teams playing Football, Basketball, Hockey and Baseball in the USA but they don't have promotion and relegation, and that works just fine.

 

So why do we need it in speedway to be taken seriously. Would anyone suggest that those US leagues aren't taken seriously?

 

As an aside, an earlier post suggested that Edinburgh wouldn't be able to attract top riders to race weekly in Scotland.

Although the club has had problems in the past, they probably shouldn't be as big these days. We would just need to hire a Dane, Swede, Pole, etc, etc that wanted to stay at home and fly into the country for his British meetings.

I think we already do that with our number one in the PL!

[Guest clivehitch]

Would like to see promotion/relegation in speedway but due to the financial constraints don't think it would work.

The Elite is becoming more southern-biased now,and think teams like Worky my local track in Cumberland are too remote unfortunately.

They put on a great night for the Fours and have shown that for a sparsely populated area that they can attract large crowds,and i am sure we would all like to see Adams Crumpie Hancock et al at Derwent Park but don't think it's feasible

[norbold]

Look back at the sports high level glory years of the late 40s and early 50s when speedway seriously rivaled football and enjoyed huge attendances and you'll see promotion and relegation operated sucessfully, due mainly to the high levels of profits being made. The introduction of entertainment tax and decline of the sport from the mid 50's onwards signaled the end of promo and releg.

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't think it ever really operated successfully, even then.

In 1948 Birmingham won the second division and were promoted. They were followed in 1949 by Bristol. In 1950 Norwich topped the second division but were denied promotion because the London clubs voted against saying that the visits of Birmingham and Bristol had been financial disasters. In 1951 Norwich won again and this time were promoted. They had a disastrous year in the first division finishing bottom. In none of those four years was any team relegated.

[Kevin Meynell]

Would like to see promotion/relegation in speedway but due to the financial constraints don't think it would work.

 

There isn't really any reason for promotion and relegation in speedway. There are a limited number of teams, and no overdemand for places at any level. Until that happens, it would just be an artificial exercise.

[25yearfan]

 

I don't think it ever really operated successfully, even then.

In 1948 Birmingham won the second division and were promoted. They were followed in 1949 by Bristol. In 1950 Norwich topped the second division but were denied promotion because the London clubs voted against saying that the visits of Birmingham and Bristol had been financial disasters. In 1951 Norwich won again and this time were promoted. They had a disastrous year in the first division finishing bottom. In none of those four years was any team relegated.

 

Yes your right Norboid, the promotion and relegation system was sketchy in those days as well!

But after promotion in 1951, my old local team the Norwich Stars remained in the top flight until the stadium was sold from underneath them in 1964, so it didn't do us much harm then!

 

The reasons you brought up about the failings of promo and releg in the late 40s/early 50s were financial based.

As I clearly stated in my original thread, I think the only way promo/releg would work now is if big sponsorship was obtained.

 

If you think about it EL clubs poorest crowds are almost always when their home meetings are featured on Sky, so whats the point in Sky televising live EL meetings?

Sky compensate the clubs for this most notable occurance and since sky started its live EL coverage in 1999 it has been seen as a major feather in the cap for British speedway.

 

Hence thats why if sponsorship was found to help PL clubs pays for the extra costs of EL and to make it more attractive to go up then I then such a system could work in the present day British speedway.

 

After all some Premier League get better crowds, better sponsorship and are more profitable than a few EL clubs. A major League sponsor would make sure that clubs wouldn't be worser of but better of making the move up.

 

Promotion and relegation (only if sponsorship can be found) would be very positve for British speedway.- If in doubt look at the League systems in Poland and Sweden where the sport enjoys much more popularity.

[bowes]

I don't know if anyone on here follows rugby league, but they have done something, similar to something suggested above, that works well.

 

Ignoring the amateur scene that is obviously impossible in speedway, a few years ago they had just 2 pro division the Super League (read the BEL) and the Premiership (or NFP) (read the BPL). The SL had 12 teams with the NFP having 18/19. In theory there was 1-up-1-down promotion and relegation but it never happened because of the gap. There was also week in week out thrashings in the NFP due to having too big a variety of teams and new teams were put off joining, there was also nothing for the bottom teams to play for. Eventually the NFP was split into National League divisions 1 and 2 with one amateur team (in London not a RL area) also deciding to join. They also created a NL3 (like the BCL) with no promotion and relegation, but to bring teams up to a level where they can join NL2, and my club Coventry Bears (again not a RL area) won NL3 this year and are applying to join NL2 for 2006.

 

P&R works where the top 6 playoff winners of NL1 can apply to join the Super League subject to their business plan and ground being passed as suitable, if it passes they switch with bottom of Super League. The top of NL2 automatically replace the bottom of NL1 and the 2nd bottom of NL1 enters playoffs with 2nd to 6th in NL2 to defend their place. There is a tiered salary cap between all the divisions. There's still a pre-season cup with NL1 and NL2 starting with regional groups before the knockout stage.

 

What does this mean for speedway? Basically if you split the BPL into 2 divisions, not only will the top division be closer to the BEL, so P&R subject to minimum criteria would work, but also it would be less of jump for BCL teams wanting to join the BPL division 2. Have a pre-season cup to give some variety to the small divisions of the BPL and keep local rivalries, e.g. if Edinburgh and Glasgow end up in different divisions. This would be the Premier Trophy. The playoffs would give more teams something to play for, at the moment any team who can't win the league has nothing to play for in the BPL

[Kevin Meynell]

P&R works where the top 6 playoff winners of NL1 can apply to join the Super League subject to their business plan and ground being passed as suitable

 

But this isn't true promotion and relegation, and I don't see that it's hugely different from what happens in speedway now. There might be a case to split the BPL into two divisions if it reached 20 or more teams, but it's not feasible with 15 or 16.

[bowes]

The point is the P&R nearly always happens it just means there aren't teams going up with 2000 capacity grounds or that will fold, making a safeguard

[barrow boy]

Promotion and relegation has to be the ultimate objective, but we are a long way from getting near to that utopia. The main problem as i see it, is that there is such a gulf in most Teams, across all leagues, between the Top riders and the rest, and the Top Boys are in short supply.

 

 

Was going to talk about promotion and relegation but thought it might have been discussed before. Apologies for raking up old ground but here goes.

 

If the bottom 2 Elite changed places with the top 2 Premier why not pool all 4 teams riders and the reallocate them on ability between the said 4 teams. The relegated heat leaders could join the promoted teams and remain Elite. The promoted heat leaders could remain with their teams. The remaining riders, ie the second strings and reserves could ride for the relegated Elite teams in the Premier.

This could be done every year. Obviously there would be some adjustments along the way.

Edited March 14, 2006 by barrow boy

[Bavarian]

Maybe there should be some sort of promotion & relegation of riders rather than clubs. Say riders who don't reach a certain points average at the end of the EL season are relegated to the Pl next year and replaced by high scoring riders from the lower level league.

[barrow boy]

Maybe there should be some sort of promotion & relegation of riders rather than clubs. Say riders who don't reach a certain points average at the end of the EL season are relegated to the Pl next year and replaced by high scoring riders from the lower level league.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Interesting!!!

 

The idea of promotion and relegation though is to provide and create more interest and at the same time give out messages to the media etc that speedway can be taken seriously again.

[AndyM]

This sounds a better idea to me - something akin to the US draft system employed in American Football, Basketball etc. may be a better long-term alternative to average governance - if it can be made to work sensibly. It could also be used to prioritise British riders ahead of novice foreigners - if palatable to the self-interest of promoters.

[Kevin Meynell]

This sounds a better idea to me - something akin to the US draft system employed in American Football, Basketball etc.

 

The problem is that a draft system only really works successfully when there's a single top league that provides good incentives for competitors to join. The NFL and NBA are the only major leagues in their respective sports (although the CFL used to compete with the NFL), so aspiring talent really has nowhere else to go.

 

Speedway has three major leagues competing for the talent, and there's no guarantee that drafted riders would agree to ride in a given league. In addition, the relative lack of money (compared with North American) sports would surely increase the likelihood of 'hold-outs'; drafted riders refusing to ride for certain teams.

[TonyM]

All of these objections and not even mentioned the asset system

 

As I have said before I dont see promotion and relegation as the answer, better to have a select few clubs who can invest in the top level of our sport knowing their position is (subject to certain criteria) relatively secure

 

As for riders, I think the way forward must go hand in had with a commitment by the top clubs to start investing in the lower levels of the sport (akin to the way the NFL farms out its fringe players to the European American Football League or whatever it is called nowaday)

 

Currently the lower league clubs scramble for young (and particularly overseas) riders signatures to then make a buck on the sell on value / loan fees or to protect themselves from higher loan fees charged by other clubs does nothing to really invest in rider development. Far better for an EL club to partner 1 (or 2) PL clubs and start developing squads that can move up and down the leagues in the way baseball players can move up from the minors mid season (cue outcry from PL supports with a self interest view but as one myself this would be a price worth paying for a real Elite league with the best riders on show rather than the hotch potch of GP / Elite / alsorans that EL squads currently contain)

[AndyM]

All of these objections and not even mentioned the asset system.  Currently the lower league clubs scramble for young (and particularly overseas) riders signatures to then make a buck on the sell on value / loan fees or to protect themselves from higher loan fees charged by other clubs does nothing to really invest in rider development. 

 

Far better for an EL club to partner 1 (or 2) PL clubs and start developing squads that can move up and down the leagues in the way baseball players can move up from the minors mid season (cue outcry from PL supports with a self interest view but as one myself this would be a price worth paying for a real Elite league with the best riders on show rather than the hotch potch of GP / Elite / alsorans that EL squads currently contain)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Always been my view too. EL clubs should be building for their own future, and some do, but they are seriously handicapped by the asset system - which should, following last season's debacle, have been on its way out by now. That it's still there now means the sport is still sitting on a ticking time bomb. We can't pretend the issue will go away any longer.

[AndyM]

The problem is that a draft system only really works successfully when there's a single top league that provides good incentives for competitors to join. The NFL and NBA are the only major leagues in their respective sports (although the CFL used to compete with the NFL), so aspiring talent really has nowhere else to go.

 

Speedway has three major leagues competing for the talent, and there's no guarantee that drafted riders would agree to ride in a given league. In addition, the relative lack of money (compared with North American) sports would surely increase the likelihood of 'hold-outs'; drafted riders refusing to ride for certain teams.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Though if it were working from a rider-centric system, it's quite easy to work through. Riders come through the system without any transfers applying, though compensation could be paid for time, effort and cost involved in training and developing the riders concerned. That should incentivise PL teams to develop riders effectively and not stand in the way of their career development.