Dekker Posted September 20, 2003 Report Share Posted September 20, 2003 The Premier League could introduce promotion and relegation. Nine teams in each league If 9 teams are seen as being no good for the EL why should 2 9 team leagues be any good for the PL? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lioness Posted September 20, 2003 Report Share Posted September 20, 2003 ....and just to add to that, a similar idea was introduced into the SPL in Scotland(football) with a split in the league part of the way through the season and its a complete joke! Maybe sounds ok in theory Peregrinner but I'm afraid having seen the effect on football I just couldn't consider backing it in speedway. :x Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frigbo Posted September 21, 2003 Report Share Posted September 21, 2003 Martin Palmer has it pretty spot on i'd say. The previous County Cricket analogy was pretty good iMO. They have promotion and relegation, the top stars ARE missing for a sizeable amount of time (Test Matches, England contracts), the crowd levels for County matches are not much different to Speedway either. romotion and relegation are a must if Speedway is to be considered even remotely credible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dekker Posted September 21, 2003 Report Share Posted September 21, 2003 The previous County Cricket analogy was pretty good iMO. They have promotion and relegation, the top stars ARE missing for a sizeable amount of time (Test Matches, England contracts), the crowd levels for County matches are much different to Speedway either. Does cricket depend on its gate money??? I think not Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mylor Posted September 21, 2003 Author Report Share Posted September 21, 2003 Some good points made there Martin. As jgl07 said “The point is that promotion and relegation can only work if the gap in standards was small.“ A three division option would cover this point quite nicely, however, 9 teams per division does seem rather small for a successful speedway league. It only works in cricket due to the 4 day matches. I’ve never been keen on teams meeting 4 times per season and I’m sure it’s boring the pants off the EL supporters. Anyone know how cricket overcomes the standards issue with promotion and relegation with two small leagues? Methinks Sky may just get interested in the final promotion match (Play off final??) from the second division but not much else. Improvements cost money. It has to come ultimately from the grass roots. Or the Sky subscribers, C4, advertisers or sponsors, ultimately grass roots but they’re not all likely to be speedway supporters. Excellent post Peregrinner…..This bit especially caught my eye……. The Elite League will fail if Ipswich carry out their threat to drop down as it is likely to be the bottom team each season realising that the promotion is not profitable. Fans need victories to keep paying money to watch their team. Yes, we already have voluntary relegation don’t we? Martin Palmer has it pretty spot on i'd say. The previous County Cricket analogy was pretty good iMO. They have promotion and relegation, the top stars ARE missing for a sizeable amount of time (Test Matches, England contracts), the crowd levels for County matches are not much different to Speedway either. romotion and relegation are a must if Speedway is to be considered even remotely credible. Well spotted frigbo……. Paragraph 3. Now why didn’t I think of that!! Do they call in guests, double-up or use the cricket equivalent to rider replacement? Does cricket depend on its gate money??? I think not Do you know where they do get their money from Dekker? I wouldn’t think Div 2 would be televised that often. Sponsorship? Perhaps they have a really fair and open distribution of rights money right down the leagues. If so, shouldn’t we be thinking along the same lines? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest davej92 Posted September 23, 2003 Report Share Posted September 23, 2003 Mylor - I'm with you. i think promotion and relegation would be a massive leap forward but can't be achieved overnight. I also think that one of the reasons speedway hasn't moved forward is because of the "we can never do that because" views of some of the list members. Jeez guys lets face it. if we don't do something league speedway will be dead within 10 years. As jgl07 said “The point is that promotion and relegation can only work if the gap in standards was small.“ well it seems to work quite well in the football premiership! Look at wolves - now that they've finally got promoted they are getting whipped regularly - has it stopped the crowd coming in? Doesn't seem to have. they want to see their lads take on the best in the country. And they haven't spent money on players. then look at Birmingham City - they have spent money and are doing well. I'm not saying that spending money is the only way to survive but it just illustrates the two extremes and that both can co-exist. heaven forbid - maybe if we did have promotion and relegation sponsors might be interested in supporting a successful team :twisted: again it all goes back to having a strong ruling body. anyone want to set up a rival league?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
born_2b_mad Posted September 23, 2003 Report Share Posted September 23, 2003 anyone want to set up a rival league?? Finally someone has come up with the ultimate proposal. This IMO is the only way forward for the sport of Speedway in Britain. The current BSPA have no idea at all, as we all know. It has worked elsewhere, so why wouldn't it work for Speedway. The thing is though which teams would be the first to make the sacrifice, once a couple threaten this I'm sure others would follow. I'm on board.....anyone else? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest davej92 Posted September 23, 2003 Report Share Posted September 23, 2003 The thing is though which teams would be the first to make the sacrifice, once a couple threaten this I'm sure others would follow. Presumably the ones either on the way up, those mistreated in some way or those actually trying hard to move forward. Some possibles? Oxford - Don;t think Waggy is the best mate of the bspa Wimbledon - great potential that won't be best used in the bspa Poole - as per oxford but for ford Coventry - new owner, same story Sheffield - should be in the top league - excellent support, great track and good location Ipswich - been shat on regularly, although i do think they cause a lot themselves by using foreign riders before brits Some that definitely wouldn;t be first Eastbourne - Mr Russell! Belle Vue - Perrin/Hall won't be able to change the rules every season to try and fit make them successful Wolves -Mr V Strat Look at what a new (in some cases competing) setup has done for darts, nascar, cricket, wrestling (!?!) Isn't it time for speedway?? Dave btw - anyone know how much money the bspa gets through in a year?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mylor Posted September 23, 2003 Author Report Share Posted September 23, 2003 ..........again it all goes back to having a strong ruling body. http://www.speedway-forum.co.uk/forum/view...opic.php?t=4445 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Midnight_Lady Posted September 23, 2003 Report Share Posted September 23, 2003 I also think that one of the reasons speedway hasn't moved forward is because of the "we can never do that because" views of some of the list members. Jeez guys lets face it. if we don't do something league speedway will be dead within 10 years. What :!: :? You may not realise this but it's not the people on this list or forum who actually run British speedway nor do we have any influence in the running of it despite what some people may think. Things will only change if and when the people in charge decide to change. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mylor Posted September 23, 2003 Author Report Share Posted September 23, 2003 Things will only change if and when the people in charge decide to change. But don't let that stop anyone from trying to persuade them that things need to change. Actually they know that already but if their efforts of the last few years are anything to go by you, and they, may well think a little guidance from the paying public would not go amiss. Keep posting Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest davej92 Posted September 24, 2003 Report Share Posted September 24, 2003 You may not realise this but it's not the people on this list or forum who actually run British speedway nor do we have any influence in the running of it despite what some people may think. Things will only change if and when the people in charge decide to change Damn! I actually thought that this was a promoters posting board - doh! Sorry it just sounds like it sometimes. we can't do this - we can't do that. my mistake :roll: surely if the fans make a big enough effort then the promoters will listen. however, as i keep saying - i'm not sure all the fans want promotion/relegation........ Dave "going round in ever decreasing circles......" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lioness Posted September 24, 2003 Report Share Posted September 24, 2003 The thing is though which teams would be the first to make the sacrifice, once a couple threaten this I'm sure others would follow. Presumably the ones either on the way up, those mistreated in some way or those actually trying hard to move forward. Some possibles? Oxford - Don;t think Waggy is the best mate of the bspa Wimbledon - great potential that won't be best used in the bspa Poole - as per oxford but for ford Coventry - new owner, same story Sheffield - should be in the top league - excellent support, great track and good location Ipswich - been shat on regularly, although i do think they cause a lot themselves by using foreign riders before brits Some that definitely wouldn;t be first Eastbourne - Mr Russell! Belle Vue - Perrin/Hall won't be able to change the rules every season to try and fit make them successful Wolves -Mr V Strat Look at what a new (in some cases competing) setup has done for darts, nascar, cricket, wrestling (!?!) Isn't it time for speedway?? Dave btw - anyone know how much money the bspa gets through in a year?? So speedway north of the line between Sheffield and Manchester is to cease to exist? Gee thanks AS I've said before thats what happened to grasstrack and now its only predominantly in the extreme South of the country Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest davej92 Posted September 24, 2003 Report Share Posted September 24, 2003 Read my lips!! Some possibles? Of course not - I'd love to see the likes of edinburgh/berwick/workington/hull/etc involved. remember what we are talking about here is a breakaway league - there would always be the current league as an alternative ;-) Just out of interest - anybody think that regionalised leagues and a national set of playoffs would work?? similiar to the premier 4tt. would cut down on travel costs.... Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lioness Posted September 24, 2003 Report Share Posted September 24, 2003 I just worry that such a break away league would do what it looked (wrongly I accept-sorry!) to me that you were doing in your post-forget about the 'northern' clubs. I'm not in favour of regionalisation for leagues either as I feel it would have the same effect....within 10 years it would be 'regionalised' in the south and speedway would be even more of a minority sport. I DO agree with regionalised cup ties in the early rounds/initial round but I could not see it working in a league format Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martin palmer Posted September 25, 2003 Report Share Posted September 25, 2003 Re: Promotion and relegation, you only have to look towards Sweden to see that it can work. There would be a lot of organisation beforehand, and it would need give and take and flexability on all sides, but in my view, its an effort worth making. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Star Fever Posted September 27, 2003 Report Share Posted September 27, 2003 Promotion and relegation would work IMO as long as the leagues aren't too far apart so that any side that went up or down at the end of the season wouldn't experience too great a culture shock. This seems to be the case in Sweden and Poland where it appears to work already. If (or when) the EL crumbles then those remaining would be PL Div 1 along with the top half (or whatever number is needed) of the existing PL. The lower 13 or so would be PL Div 2. Obviously PL teams would not want extra costs so basically the EL teams would have to reduce costs by shedding their top GP riders. Or of course by capping payments and letting the riders themselves decide whether they'll take part. There's probably only 10-15 riders in this range so whether they did or not it would not take much jiggling of team strengths to equalise the ex-ELs with the top PL sides. So basically div 1 would be slightly stronger than the PL is now, whilst div 2 would be the same as now. As the EL surely can't go on with fewer teams each season, and as PL sides don't want to go into an EL as it currently stands, I feel that this is the only way forward for British Speedway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest willg Posted September 28, 2003 Report Share Posted September 28, 2003 How about this: 2 x 14 team leagues - Division One: All Elite League Teams plus 6 who could afford to 'step up' a little bit, thinking of Arena, Swindon and Sheffield straight away. GP riders only one per club. Competition runs along E-League averages (re-assess every riders average, based on three years history + competitions raced in), all Division one teams get 38 limit. Division Two: All other P/L clubs, averages translated into E/L ones, clubs in this div. get to a 42 point limit. GP riders one per club if they wish. Wage cap for each club as a % of revenue. British League Cup stands along current lines, with teams able to choose their full sqaud (38 pts div one, 42 div two). Promotion/Relegation = Bottom Club Div One straight down. 2nd Bottom vs 3rd bottom play off home and away. Winner stays up. Top Club Div Two straight up. 2nd club vs 3rd club play off home and away. Winner gets to play off v rel. playoff winner div one for top flight place next year. Guests allowed, no changes in averages between the divisions. R/R and the like all the same. One rider, one team! Div One K/O cup, Div Two K/O cup. Sky to televise Div One matches, plus all playoffs and key K/O / BLC meetings. What this does is keep the rules of speedway simple and as we know and love them(!). It spreads the top riders around the clubs and ensures that averages no longer can be manipulated like the BLC this year (run on P/L terms when Lindback can get in with a 4.50 avg, yet he'd be a 9 in the P/L which is restrictive - see Rune Knudsen/Kristian Lund ).... Travel costs would not increase too much, more meetings = more revenue for promoters, more meaningful meetings (playoffs / prom/rel etc) = greater crowds = more money. (Example, Newcastle have nowt left to play for this year since the abolition of the Young Shield - as have E/L clubs who weren't making playoffs etc therefore rubbishe crowds...) I could go even further and have point pay caps introduced, have each team put 1-3% of their revenue into a 'pot' which would be spent on local marketing / newspaper advertising to improve the public knowledge of the sport and to drive crowd levels, appoint a BSPA Liason Officer who would visit each track regularly and ensure that minimum standards are met in terms of safety, pits, admission prices, facilities, marketing, promotion etc etc and to share best practice around all tracks to ensure that everyone is maximising their potential................... Sounds so simple but I'm sure there are huge holes in my theories - pick away guys this thread is tops keep it going 8) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Meynell Posted October 28, 2003 Report Share Posted October 28, 2003 The point of promotion and relegation in any sport, is when more teams want to compete at the highest level than can be accommodated. It is therefore the only fair method by which to determine the level at which each team should ride. It's all very nice to discuss how this might work in speedway, but the top league is hardly overwhelmed with numbers at the moment. The priority must be to ensure there are at least approximately equal numbers in both the BEL and BPL before we start worrying about enforced movements between the different levels of competition. Yes of course promotion and relegation can work in speedway, it does in the Polish and Swedish leagues, but it's simply pointless to consider for British speedway at the moment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin Meynell Posted October 28, 2003 Report Share Posted October 28, 2003 Obviously PL teams would not want extra costs so basically the EL teams would have to reduce costs by shedding their top GP riders. If it comes down to a choice, I'm sure that many SGP would opt-out of that competition in favour of the British leagues. It is simply not possible any SGP rider to make a living out of that competition alone, so unless they have team places in Poland and Sweden (and few riders have a guaranteed number of meetings due to the squad systems in those countries), they would not have much option. Those riders opting out would basically force the standard higher than the current BPL, which is why the two leagues cannot exist in isolation. In reality, I suspect you need a enlarged BEL pitched at a slight lower-level than now, with the rest of the BPL teams running at about the same level. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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