Mylor Posted September 17, 2003 Report Share Posted September 17, 2003 .Will you allow me to add a few shades of grey to a topic that's been painted black an white for some time now? To those wishing for the sport to be taken seriously it's been deemed an essential ingredient, however past failed attempts have left a bad taste in supporter's mouths and, no doubt, polarised opinions amongst the promoters. Promotion and relegation is a sore point but I'm slowly coming round to the idea that it would only come about when teams in the 'lower' division(s) start hammering at the door of the 'higher' division to be let in. The incentives must be lucrative enough to make this come about. These incentives would be the fan's expectations as well as money. This having come about, to be allowed to compete in the 'higher' division would mean accepting the rules, one of which would be acceptance of the conditions under which a team can be relegated. Having built up this head of steam from the 'lower' division(s) refusal to be relegated would not be an option. Unlike previous attempts, having accepted the rules, the whole of British Speedway would expect them to be obeyed. It may even be deemed desirable to withhold some or all of the rights and other money until the following season to act as both a 'parachute payment' and as a deterrent to those tempted to refuse to be relegated. Once again, the need for a strong governing body is paramount but that's for another thread. Any more constructive shades of grey you'd like to add? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dekker Posted September 17, 2003 Report Share Posted September 17, 2003 Get real.... 1) what would Edinburgh score in this years EL with their PL winning team? 2) Were would the cash come from to improve the team? As its well known that promotion in itself wont pay for it. 3) how many EL stars would be interested in riding for Edinburgh? 4) bearing such things as above in order what would you do if any PL team refused promotion? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgl07 Posted September 17, 2003 Report Share Posted September 17, 2003 Get real.... 1) what would Edinburgh score in this years EL with their PL winning team? 2) Were would the cash come from to improve the team? As its well known that promotion in itself wont pay for it. 3) how many EL stars would be interested in riding for Edinburgh? 4) bearing such things as above in order what would you do if any PL team refused promotion? The point is that promotion and relegation can only work if the gap in standards was small. It will never work between the PL and the EL but it could work between a PL Div 1 and a PL Div 2. Then it would be a matter of changing one or two riders to move up or down. One contribution might be to scrap the current retained system and all the transfer fees and loan charges. That would make if easier for a team to adpat to a new environment. It's all total unlawful anyway! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mylor Posted September 18, 2003 Author Report Share Posted September 18, 2003 Get real.... 1) what would Edinburgh score in this years EL with their PL winning team? 2) Were would the cash come from to improve the team? As its well known that promotion in itself wont pay for it. 3) how many EL stars would be interested in riding for Edinburgh? 4) bearing such things as above in order what would you do if any PL team refused promotion? Methinks you were too hasty with your reply Dekker. 1) Read my third paragraph again. As things stand no PL team would be 'hammering' at the door. The incentives aren't there yet. We already know that the costs of running in the EL must come down if it's to survive and encourage growth. 2) The cash isn't there yet but as I said above you shouldn't need so much of it in future to run in the EL. See wolfcrazy's Speedway, The Future thread. http://www.speedway-forum.co.uk/forum/view...der=asc&start=0 and the links from it. 3) Having read the thread above Dekker you'll see where we're coming from. The question is how do we get from where we are now to where we want to be. A much bigger, more prosperous and respected sport, One rider-One team throughout europe, more variety, more money, more exposure. There's absolutely no reason why Edinburgh couldn't represent Scotland in the European Club Championship and attract the best riders. After all, they'd be spread much more thinly making the EL much cheaper to compete in, and I mean compete. 4) If the fans wanted it, if the financial incentives were there and a strong governing body were there to see fair play I don't see why they would refuse. It's unheard of in any other respectable sport. Having said that I don't see any reason why they shouldn't give up their place to the next highest team but as the costs shouldn't be much higher and as the rewards would be greater I think it would be a 'courageous' decision to go against the fans and not to try at least one season in the higher division. I'm sure Scotland could support at least one EL team in the new environment. It's a five year plan.....................it ain't gonna happen in March but we do need as much support as possible. Have a good read in 'The Way Ahead', think it through and make your feelings known. We know that some influential people read the threads in there. These same people are formulating their ideas for next year as I write. It's probably the only way us fans can make a difference. We're asking for big changes, in Europe as well as in the UK, but nothing that can't be achieved in this sort of timeframe. We have a superb product, and as we all agree, given the right leadership and promotion the sky's the limit. Keep posting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Midnight_Lady Posted September 18, 2003 Report Share Posted September 18, 2003 I'm sure Scotland could support at least one EL team in the new environment. It's a five year plan.....................it ain't gonna happen in March but we do need as much support as possible. Whilst I understand and admire your plans as to what you think can be achieved down here in the real world I can't see it happen I am afraid. We in Scotland have always had difficulty attracting riders to travel up here week in week out. It's not going to change. We also don't have the money to throw at riders to entice them to do so. As for a five year plan....well how long has speedway been going and we are not that much further forward than we were all those years ago apart from the GP series :!: Support is all well and good but support for what we the fans want hasn't done much so far. It's in the hands of the ruling bodies and until there is an independant person/committee overseeing speedway in this country there will still be the rule breaking and shafting of other teams so that certain clubs get their own way. And if you think I sound bitter I sure am. I remember the fiasco the last time and how it nearly crippled some clubs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Working Star Posted September 18, 2003 Report Share Posted September 18, 2003 Am I alone in remembering how many riders had van breakdowns en route to Scotland in "the old Days". The PL works fine with the northern tracks now because of tours involving 2-3 matches, if one club went into the EL solo (supposing they were mad enough) the same thing would happen again IMO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mylor Posted September 18, 2003 Author Report Share Posted September 18, 2003 ...............I can't see it happen I am afraid.. There was a time, not long ago, when I longed to see speedway on the tele every week. I didn't think that would happen either. It's in the hands of the ruling bodies and until there is an independant person/committee overseeing speedway in this country there will still be the rule breaking and shafting of other teams so that certain clubs get their own way. And if you think I sound bitter I sure am. I remember the fiasco the last time and how it nearly crippled some clubs. From my first post:- Once again, the need for a strong governing body is paramount but that's for another thread. I take your point about attracting riders to Scotland ML but apart from making it cheaper for all teams to run in the EL I'm afraid I don't have a solution short of chartering a team plane, painting it in your club and Scotland Tourist Board colours and using it for publicity...........perhaps the footie teams could use it as well and................off topic again Mylor, pack it in, Ok. :roll: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Midnight_Lady Posted September 18, 2003 Report Share Posted September 18, 2003 until there is an independant person/committee overseeing speedway From my first post:-Once again, the need for a strong governing body is paramount but that's for another thread Ahhh but you didn't say independant Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lioness Posted September 18, 2003 Report Share Posted September 18, 2003 For promotion and relegation to work in any sport you have to have some sort of pyraimd structure reaching all the way down. face it whether we like it or not speedway is no where near big enough or well supported enough to even contemplate it. It would kill the sport off. On the subject of 'at least one EL club' in Scotland, we had a discussion along similar lines at Ashfield recently between Edinburgh and Glasgow fans. The one thing we were all unanimous about was that one club needed the other to survive. Forcing through promotion and relegation on a minority support would only lead to it becoming regionalised as the further out teams slowly-or perhaps even not so slowly-folded and became part of the years gone by threads. Its like a fairy tale......a nice idea in principal but in reality it could never work. Look at what has happened to the grasstrack scene that was prevalent in Scotland 30 years ago. It now doesn't exist, its mostly a Suuth coast sport. The same would happen in speedway if it went down that route of forcing promotion and relegation, irrespective of trying 'incentives' for which I can't see where the money for would come from. If nothing else, pure economics and the north/south divide would see to that. it would be the quickest way of killing off speedway as a national sport imo. Sorry Mylor I think you come up with a lot of fantastic ideas and really think outside the square in a lot of things and have a lot to offer when it comes to discussions over how speedway can progress. However, this idea is one that I am afraid I think is way off the mark and a little niave to be honest. Just my opinion, no offence intended Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mylor Posted September 18, 2003 Author Report Share Posted September 18, 2003 For promotion and relegation to work in any sport you have to have some sort of pyraimd structure reaching all the way down. face it whether we like it or not speedway is no where near big enough or well supported enough to even contemplate it. It would kill the sport off. Doesn't first class cricket have promotion and relegation between two nine team divisions? I am afraid I think is way off the mark and a little niave to be honest. Just my opinion, no offence intended No offence taken Lioness. I do wish I hadn't replied making reference to Scotland though. As is perfectly clear, I'm no expert on the finer points of Scottish speedway. I did cover the point about where the money would come from in detail in wolfcrazy's thread (link above) and my previous posts. For those not familiar with the concept it is based on making the EL a much cheaper league to run a team in by encouraging the introduction of a One rider, One team initiative across Europe sometime over the next few years thus making the EL viable as top riders would be much more thinly spread. The European Club Championship then also becomes viable (not a one week affair, a proper 7 man home and away format), more variety, more coverage, more support............. Of course none of us has all the answers to all the points that would be raised but it's a decent starting point don't you think? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lioness Posted September 18, 2003 Report Share Posted September 18, 2003 Re cricket it is a national sport in England and gets the funding and support in line with that. Afraid I dont think there is really an anology to be drawn between cricket and speedway. Cricketers dont play in different countries on different days of the week either lol! Hey I dont claim to ber an expert on Scottish speedway either btw-far from it! I wish I had the answers, I don't but I am convinced that trying to force relegation and promotion on clubs would kill the sport rather than help it. Perhaps there will be major changes which allow that in the future but I reckon it will be a long time in the future. Thanks fro the reply Mylor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mylor Posted September 18, 2003 Author Report Share Posted September 18, 2003 .........trying to force relegation and promotion on clubs would kill the sport rather than help it. For others following this thread and as this is the second time it has been mentioned, at no point have I mentioned forcing any club to accept promotion and relegation. As I said above:- ..............but I'm slowly coming round to the idea that it would only come about when teams in the 'lower' division(s) start hammering at the door of the 'higher' division to be let in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lioness Posted September 18, 2003 Report Share Posted September 18, 2003 Sorry Mylor but from your comments and teh ehading of the thread I took it that was what you were meaning. Apologies for the misinterpretaion. Still disagree though-I dont think speedway is a 'big' enough sport to sustain promotion and relegation on any other than an irregular financial basis Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dekker Posted September 18, 2003 Report Share Posted September 18, 2003 Looks like ur on a loser with this one mylor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mylor Posted September 19, 2003 Author Report Share Posted September 19, 2003 Looks like ur on a loser with this one mylor. See Midnight Lady's sig.............. :? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mylor Posted September 19, 2003 Author Report Share Posted September 19, 2003 until there is an independant person/committee overseeing speedway From my first post:-Once again, the need for a strong governing body is paramount but that's for another thread Ahhh but you didn't say independant ML....I started another thread on controlling bodies ( :? :roll: ) http://www.speedway-forum.co.uk/forum/view...4445&highlight= Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exeter Posted September 19, 2003 Report Share Posted September 19, 2003 Get real.... 1) what would Edinburgh score in this years EL with their PL winning team? 2) Were would the cash come from to improve the team? As its well known that promotion in itself wont pay for it. 3) how many EL stars would be interested in riding for Edinburgh? 4) bearing such things as above in order what would you do if any PL team refused promotion? OMG, do you not think clubs have these problems in every other sport with r & p, including in speedway in Sweden and Poland? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
martin palmer Posted September 19, 2003 Report Share Posted September 19, 2003 Promotion and relegation has to be the ultimate objective, but we are a long way from getting near to that utopia. The main problem as i see it, is that there is such a gulf in most Teams, across all leagues, between the Top riders and the rest, and the Top Boys are in short supply. In my view, the only way it could work ( in the future) would be to merge all clubs together, EL and PL, and split them into 3 leagues, British league 1,2 &3....possibly 9 each in 1 & 2, and 8 in 3, ( the Conference league is still seperate)......divvy this up based on Club wealth, desire, attendances etc, radically reduce the Team strengths in Div 1, so that the Gulf is not wide, and then, you might make it work. The clubs with little or no money, would unlikely win promotion beyond Div 2, so the potential for a club refusing promotion would be minimised. A possible starting point could be.... ( and i only use this as an example)... DIV 1.....Team ave...42 Poole Coventry Eastbourne Oxford Wolves Peterborough Belle Vue Swindon Sheffield Div 2........Team ave...44 Ipswich Workington Edingburgh Arena Newcastle Rye House Stoke Kings Lynn Glasgow Div 3........Team ave...45 IOW Berwick Exeter Newport Reading Somerset Trelawney Hull Wimbledon ??? Mildenhall???? Sorry, any Fans of any team who thinks they should be in a higher league, no offence, this is an example only. This format could encourage Wimbledon and Mildenhall to make the jump. In addition to the League and KO Cup, for all leagues, you could have an interleague Cup, like the FA cup. I would also suggest 6 rider Teams in interests of costs. Promotion and relegation from that lot would be exciting. perhaps we could then encourage Sky to televise matches from across the leagues, and the season for the bottom Teams means something aslo. Only 1 Team promoted, and 1 Team relegated from each league. The current way of working out averages from riders moving leaguse would need to be changed, but a solution could be worked out. Therefore, if an 8 Point Div 1 rider wanted to stay with his club if relegated, could do so without carrying a 16 point ave. Maybe the rule would be for him to take the same ave as the current highest ave in the Div 2, so ex...Stonehewer on 10.5 in Div 2, so that ave would apply to this 8 point rider. I would suggest that 8 points be the max ave to be allowed to drop a league. With some work and some more thought, this would be radical, but could work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mylor Posted September 19, 2003 Author Report Share Posted September 19, 2003 Get real.... 1) what would Edinburgh score in this years EL with their PL winning team? 2) Were would the cash come from to improve the team? As its well known that promotion in itself wont pay for it. 3) how many EL stars would be interested in riding for Edinburgh? 4) bearing such things as above in order what would you do if any PL team refused promotion? OMG, do you not think clubs have these problems in every other sport with r & p, including in speedway in Sweden and Poland? Is there an echo in here?? Didn't I answer these points in my 2nd post on this thread? Is Exeter and Dekker one and the same? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peregrinner Posted September 20, 2003 Report Share Posted September 20, 2003 Improvements cost money. It has to come ultimately from the grass roots. The BSPA currently control things in Britain but it is generally acknowledged the until we get rid of the Ps in the pod and it becomes the BSA there will be certain Ps who are bigger and louder than others. The BSA should be part of an ESA which should be part of a WSA. Then we have a chance of SERIOUS debate about the finer points of the sport. The Elite League will fail if Ipswich carry out their threat to drop down as it is likely to be the bottom team each season realising that the promotion is not profitable. Fans need victories to keep paying money to watch their team. The Premier League could introduce promotion and relegation. Nine teams in each league with maybe one team switching mid-season before running a 2nd half separate league. That, for me, would be an exciting prospect. Let us talk more and get the people that matter reading about these ideas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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