coma Posted July 18, 2008 Report Share Posted July 18, 2008 i think it is wrong that any rider gets drunk in a city full of fans but you can tell me that f1 or moto gp stars don t drink cause i think they do lust behind closed doors Not sure about the lusting behind closed doors but they don't drink at all during the season. Back in the 70's & 80's yes, but once the young Schumacher came along and set the bar for absolute fitness & performance, they all followed his lead. He used to allow himself a few drinks at the end of the season (thats drinks not piss ups!) but once Xmas passed, he wouldn't touch the stuff until the end of the season. That is common through the grid now. I know that Tony Rickardsson was usually the same during the season too and I have only ever seen Bjarne Pedersen drinking non alcoholic drinks in the bar at Poole so some speedway riders to have some dedication! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MARK246 Posted July 18, 2008 Report Share Posted July 18, 2008 Your right there isn t but some of that is down to them not getting the help or sponsors or even team places i known that when english lad gets into a team he will get the least money and struggle for sponsors but a team bring a foreigner and he gets a bit better money , sponsors are found a place to live a van if needed and he will get a guarantee if he scores or not, so the whole thing is set up for them to do well plus if they have a bad spell they go home and practise for a week so maybe which we can t. Been up against it at the start puts them off and they just think well i can have a good life earn a bit and enjoy it, its better than working 9 to 5 like there mates. Just my thoroughts Quite interesting to note, how well Andrew Appleton is going in the longtrack and grasstrack events in europe since he quit the British racing scene. I must agree the British lads get poor rewards for their efforts in league racing. Maybe the way forward is to emigrate then return on a foreign licence, less pressure, better facillities. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spook Posted July 18, 2008 Author Report Share Posted July 18, 2008 It isn't just Berwick though its the league in general it isn't the PL teams responsibility to develop British riders agreed it isnt just berwick..........disagree completely the PL is not a rival to the EL it is a lower league where our guys should be able to train themselves up... sorry but nonsense justification just as your previous statement here: But that's what being a fan of a team is about you need to win its the same case being a promoter of a team you need to win. It is PL teams promoters responsibility to put a winning team on track as that is what fans want if this means signing a Dane,Swede,Finn,Australian in order to get a winning team they will always choose that option first. as above this is nonsense The number of foreign riders in the PL does affect the Brits progressing when I say Brits who aren't getting better I mean riders like Birkinshaw,Dicken,Smethills,Evans what about riders like this are they not affecting the progression path of other riders ?. yes it does affect them... of course it affects them........... with the few CL teams how many riders in those teams should be getting a crack at PL this season? Then increase the amount of teams because if the policies in place were changed then the CL would be supported once again.... and then increase those riders at the same rate who should be getting a crack ................ there will always be the 5/6 pointers like dicken, evans et al........ this is not a justification for clogging up and funneling the opportunities with journeymen or youngsters from other countries It isn't just foreign riders that destroy the system I have never indicated that it is.... I have said that it is the promoters and the support of the promoters policies by the fans To a lesser extent you could even blame people like Parker,Havelock,Zorro who came to the PL for an easy life, there presence has a positive affect on the younger riders there presence is also a team place a Young Brit could have the PL isn't second tier Speedway any more it isn't just a step up to bigger things, it has turned into a step down the ladder for allot of riders, as has the CL No the Zorro's and Parker's are good for our grass roots... they show our youngsters the professionalism that is required to make a successful career..... these guys deserve to be a fans favourite in one of our grass roots leagues......... they are bona fide heatleaders Rye is a one of they teams are investing allot of time and money into there youth development all credit to them,they have facilities and track time that others don't have they have a massive catchment area for talent that others dont have. What do you know about Rye's 'track time'? .... as it goes they dont have that much track time....... they have enough for the PL and CL matches and then the odd hour here and there inbetween........... they are regulated by the council just like anyone else............. the difference is that Len Silver invests the time, effort and organisation into bringing on young brits, supporting the CL instead of flights, houses and kitting out overseas riders If you want to solve a problem of Brits have a centre for youngsters than draught them out to PL teams on a capped wage, then we would find out how much they want it. To many riders in this country want to make a living or say " I'm a speedway rider " rather than having the attitude to make it IMO This is all cliched nonsense............. ask the Rye House riders how much they want it.......... ask some of those guys in the CL who cant get a PL reserve spot how much they want it........... ask the promoters who gained assets out of new overseas signings this season how much they were influenced by the fact that they would be gaining new assets No clubs have closed due to supporting Brits but if you demand a team like Glasgow, Berwick, Edinburgh to sign Brits , they have tried in the past, riders wont travel that far North is that the fault of the clubs ?, They demand an excessive fee ? That the fault of the club ? Glasgow could still be sticking with Cockle now and he was never going to make any thing of him self so they then just have a rider who is dead wood in there team and adding very little to the value of the club or product instances like this would drive fans away IMO where as another team has an Auty and in turn makes them a winning team where as Glasgow are onto a loser and then the club is in trouble. this aspect of this discussion has been done time and time again.............. the pence per mile travelling fee has not been updated for donkeys..... it is unrealistic............ where are the CL teams for these clubs? ............ I understand the geographical issues but there just isnt much effort made at all is there? The last I heard the only training at junior level was Kenny McKinnas school some 2 years ago ..............Instead we have flights, homes, bikes, vans invested in for the overseas guys......... this is all part and parcel of the viscious cycle that the promoters have got themselves in.................. Peter Waite cannot get himself out of this now without extra investment to either set up a CL team or to offer other CL lads the same kind of support he offers his regular cycle of overseas signings .............. Len Silver does not get himself into that money pit and the last guy he did get into with it he sold along with the vans and the bikes he paid for......... instead Len now invests into the riders of the CL team and offsets losses of running a CL team with potential asset earnings and the earnings of the PL team (if there are any).......... he sold Barrie Evans and Joel Parsons collectively for 20k+ ....... Steve Boxall, James Cockle and Daniel Giffard have also moved on whether sold or on loan fees.......... he has 5 guys in the rockets who are full assets and came from the Raiders......... and of course a full Cobras team full of assets Ask yourself how many fans it would put on the gate if a local guy came through the CL team and then rode for the PL team Brits need to prove they are worthy of a team and IMO there isn't enough of them doing that. a perfect finishing statement there arent enough of them doing that because there arent many of them to start with .................exactly the point of the whole thread Overseas assets are killing the CL...... they are making the PL a rival to the EL and a training ground not for our youngsters but for youngsters of other countries..... not a home training ground which is entertaining enough for people to watch which is exactly what it should be........... and as a result we have few Brits at PL heatleader level and few at EL reserve and 2nd string level Peter Waite will always be Peter Waite and you may support the decisions he makes but it does not mean that he is doing anything for British riders or the standard of british riders in british speedway................... and to go full circle the same can be said about most promoters in both the PL and EL p.s and for the record Raikkonen was renowned for being well over the top with his nights drinking..... the year he curbed it he won the championship................. having been with the gp riders the night/morning (!!) before a GP though I can safely say that 75% of the field were having a good time and that it wasnt the best preparation for a world championship speedway grand prix.......... thats 75% of the field covering all nations Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wjm Posted July 18, 2008 Report Share Posted July 18, 2008 (edited) agreed it isnt just berwick..........disagree completely the PL is not a rival to the EL it is a lower league where our guys should be able to train themselves up... sorry but nonsense justification just as your previous statement here: as above this is nonsense yes it does affect them... of course it affects them........... with the few CL teams how many riders in those teams should be getting a crack at PL this season? Then increase the amount of teams because if the policies in place were changed then the CL would be supported once again.... and then increase those riders at the same rate who should be getting a crack ................ there will always be the 5/6 pointers like dicken, evans et al........ this is not a justification for clogging up and funneling the opportunities with journeymen or youngsters from other countries I have never indicated that it is.... I have said that it is the promoters and the support of the promoters policies by the fans No the Zorro's and Parker's are good for our grass roots... they show our youngsters the professionalism that is required to make a successful career..... these guys deserve to be a fans favourite in one of our grass roots leagues......... they are bona fide heatleaders What do you know about Rye's 'track time'? .... as it goes they dont have that much track time....... they have enough for the PL and CL matches and then the odd hour here and there inbetween........... they are regulated by the council just like anyone else............. the difference is that Len Silver invests the time, effort and organisation into bringing on young brits, supporting the CL instead of flights, houses and kitting out overseas riders This is all cliched nonsense............. ask the Rye House riders how much they want it.......... ask some of those guys in the CL who cant get a PL reserve spot how much they want it........... ask the promoters who gained assets out of new overseas signings this season how much they were influenced by the fact that they would be gaining new assets this aspect of this discussion has been done time and time again.............. the pence per mile travelling fee has not been updated for donkeys..... it is unrealistic............ where are the CL teams for these clubs? ............ I understand the geographical issues but there just isnt much effort made at all is there? The last I heard the only training at junior level was Kenny McKinnas school some 2 years ago ..............Instead we have flights, homes, bikes, vans invested in for the overseas guys......... this is all part and parcel of the viscious cycle that the promoters have got themselves in.................. Peter Waite cannot get himself out of this now without extra investment to either set up a CL team or to offer other CL lads the same kind of support he offers his regular cycle of overseas signings .............. Len Silver does not get himself into that money pit and the last guy he did get into with it he sold along with the vans and the bikes he paid for......... instead Len now invests into the riders of the CL team and offsets losses of running a CL team with potential asset earnings and the earnings of the PL team (if there are any).......... he sold Barrie Evans and Joel Parsons collectively for 20k+ ....... Steve Boxall, James Cockle and Daniel Giffard have also moved on whether sold or on loan fees.......... he has 5 guys in the rockets who are full assets and came from the Raiders......... and of course a full Cobras team full of assets Ask yourself how many fans it would put on the gate if a local guy came through the CL team and then rode for the PL team a perfect finishing statement there arent enough of them doing that because there arent many of them to start with .................exactly the point of the whole thread Overseas assets are killing the CL...... they are making the PL a rival to the EL and a training ground not for our youngsters but for youngsters of other countries..... not a home training ground which is entertaining enough for people to watch which is exactly what it should be........... and as a result we have few Brits at PL heatleader level and few at EL reserve and 2nd string level Peter Waite will always be Peter Waite and you may support the decisions he makes but it does not mean that he is doing anything for British riders or the standard of british riders in british speedway................... and to go full circle the same can be said about most promoters in both the PL and EL p.s and for the record Raikkonen was renowned for being well over the top with his nights drinking..... the year he curbed it he won the championship................. having been with the gp riders the night/morning (!!) before a GP though I can safely say that 75% of the field were having a good time and that it wasnt the best preparation for a world championship speedway grand prix.......... thats 75% of the field covering all nations So what is the PL promoters responsbility then what is the PL for ? Are you always going to mention Peter Waite ?. When I say not enough of them justifying it I mean of the Brits racing now Edited July 18, 2008 by wjm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spook Posted July 18, 2008 Author Report Share Posted July 18, 2008 (edited) disagree completely the PL is not a rival to the EL it is a lower league where our guys should be able to train themselves up... Overseas assets are killing the CL...... they are making the PL a rival to the EL and a training ground not for our youngsters but for youngsters of other countries..... not a home training ground which is entertaining enough for people to watch which is exactly what it should be I dont know when you started watching speedway but if you werent around in the eighties you need to brush up on some of your history......... Ironically considering some may consider Rye as one of the leading lights in what we are discussing here........ a certain Ronnie 'dastardly' Russell in what must have been his second season decided that the other promoters were out to get him and refusing to let him have decent riders............ so he decided he would break what was only a gentleman's agreement in the BSPA that the National League (PL) would be kept strictly to Commonwealth riders and signed the German Peter Schroek and the Dane Jens Rasmussen.............. the proverbial hit the fan but there was nothing the rest of the promoters could do about it.................. the floodgates were open......................... Initially in the following years we saw the zorros and the topinkas dropping down to finish their careers but then the middle order gradually started clogging up track this alongside the quality of the GB team and despite us going through a dip anyway post Jessup, Lee, Collins, Carter, Morton etc the NL was no longer producing at the rate that it was previously........... the Wigg's, Cox's Havvy's and Cross's were fewer and further between.................... this has continued slowly from those days right up to the bitter end of where we are now The Premier League is not supposed to be a rival to the EL............. the very nature of doubling and halving the averages between the two leagues should give the complete story................. the fact that we dont have bona fide promotion and relegation should also indicate that this is not a scenario like football either............... simply put the PL should be a stepping stone just like the CL ........ yes there will be guys dropping down to finish their careers..... yes there will be guys staying down for 'safe' earnings just like Joe Owen did all those years ago..... and there will be the lee dickens or tony atkins hanging around but they will always be at risk due to their non improving averages............. but the PL has to have a regular flow between the CL and the EL of our guys what is currently happening is that the flow is coming from Oz and Europe and back again..... with few coming from the CL or going to the EL and no i'm happy to move on to other promoters if you are touchy over Peter........... but he is a shining example of what is going wrong and how fans are completely missing the point because this has been going on for so long and editing to reply to your edit: nonsense ........... do you not understand that out of 10 riders two of them always makes the progress of eventually making it but one of them will fall before the final hurdle...... that another 2 will make steady progress and that 1 of them through hard work might end up making it......... that another 2 might get to PL HL level ..... and that the remainder will be 2nd string/old CL hand or retired now turn that 10 into 2 and tell me what we have once again this is all about opportunities and volume for Brits..... not for overseas riders Edited July 18, 2008 by spook Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spook Posted October 22, 2008 Author Report Share Posted October 22, 2008 To answer my own question, it appears that the Conference is taking place on the 13th - 16th November on the Costa del Sol. Look out for Terry Russell in his Speedo's I thought i'd make this one resurface as it appears to be the right time of year to do it Since the world cup we have seen Bomber most likely go out of the GP's and Scott hanging on by his fingernails to a wildcard.... with no other candidate currently good enough for a wildcard.......... Nothing has changed in any of the divisions and it is still up to the very few at CL and grass roots level to bring on the few they are allowed to. So what should the promoters realistically be doing about this at the Conference? Its a shame that this thread is only in this section because imo it is also applicable for EL, PL, CL, and U15's....... I would like to see: No more commonwealth riders in the CL Any non British passport holding rider coming in on an 8 in the PL if they dont have an outstanding average The CL clubs able to generate assets rather than being insulted by 'training fees' and then have to go cap in hand for a free loan Doubling up brought back for British riders under 24 for a maximum of 2 years per rider a bigger reduction for brits in the PL and EL The abolition of assets in advance (not sure what term they are using for the system)....... ie Wolves making Tai an asset 4 years before he rides for them....... Scunthorpe or Rye should have gained him as an asset and be benefiting from it now ......... with this and CL clubs able to have assets, and non british passport holding riders being a mandatory 8 we would see new CL clubs being started up by both PL and EL clubs................the CL would flourish and we would see a stream of british guys passing through the leagues up to the EL within a few years what is likely to happen based on past years?: someone will propose something like this and it will be shot down in flames because the promoters only ever want the short term fix and are STILL obsessed with this mini stocks and shares game they play amongst themselves over assets and assessed averages. Meanwhile our national team will be displaced by the Russians in the top 5 nations, the same shortage of brits will continue in the EL, the same shortage of brits will be in the PL (one of our grass roots leagues) and the CL will go one further step towards collapsing. Time to have a rethink and a change of policy p.s. yes I know that there is a similar thread on this in general but it is not looking at things from this viewpoint............. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Butler Posted October 22, 2008 Report Share Posted October 22, 2008 Not sure about anyone else but when the longest post ever has been posted going over the same thing that is being discussed in numerous other threads, I really can't be arsed to read it. Spook do me a favour and sumarise what you have said for me please You must give credit where it's due, Shaz! That post takes first prize fir the longest thread title; at least I can't remember a longer one Personally, I prefer input that briefly and clearly outlines the theme in the first three or four lines and then, in the requisite number of sentences and paragraphs, develops the basic theme into a foundation for discussion. I think the author of this thread wishes us to discuss the future make-up of the British international team. Can you confirm that, please? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bruno Posted October 22, 2008 Report Share Posted October 22, 2008 just a quicky about the brits professionalism. i bet nicholls and harris arnt doing what nikki p doing know and thats thinking and prepering for next season.even crumpie not on the same level.can np win beat 6 titles you would have to say yes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spook Posted October 23, 2008 Author Report Share Posted October 23, 2008 You must give credit where it's due, Shaz! That post takes first prize fir the longest thread title; at least I can't remember a longer one Personally, I prefer input that briefly and clearly outlines the theme in the first three or four lines and then, in the requisite number of sentences and paragraphs, develops the basic theme into a foundation for discussion. I think the author of this thread wishes us to discuss the future make-up of the British international team. Can you confirm that, please? awfully sorry I didnt compose my post how you would prefer Ron but maybe the intention wasnt to write a few summarising lines ...... possibly the very title you have decided to criticise was all the summarising you needed before tackling what must be a very arduous post for you I know and you know full well what my posts have been about good luck with all that Bruno I tend to disagree now that Kelvin is in Scotty's camp..... I am sure that a befitting level of professionalism will have been injected into that particular pits area.......... however he will still be restricted by the sponsorship levels he has and the training and example he had and was shown in his early years Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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