Lynch? Tuners? Bottle?

[mikegum]

I would like to add that there is a crop of good kids (12 to 15 years old) riding at the moment most of them don t have there names on vans or web site and the ones with nice suits and covers have had them sponsored cause all there money goes on travel, bikes and training costs but if they don t get track time and advice then how many will make it. Some fans seem to think its easy but truth is you have a lot of travelling to do then theres the maintance of bikes plus dads need to work i know that i have spent at least ten thousand pounds this year on my lads racing and he one of the lucky ones that has 6 sponsors so i would hate to think how much the dads who can t find sponsors cope. Jim Lynch says its not all doom and gloom and he many be right but if somethin s not done soon they it will be and we might even struggle to make the wtc all together.

 

This is a really interesting post Neil, I tried my hand at speedway in the early 80s & judging by your comments little has changed, in fact things may actually be worse, at least we had Lew Coffin down at Weymouth or Bob Humphreys at Milton Keynes who ran regular training schools. All the major speedway leagues now have proper schoolboy/girl facilities, professional coaches & transition and practice schemes with equipment funds to help the lads along. And as regards the 'sign written van' argument, I lost track of the number of times that young riders were dumped from second half rides because XYX rider from abroad had turned up with 2 bikes and a van...when our lads have good kit its flashy, when they are from abroad its professional?

 

Don't get me wrong, I love watching many of the overseas riders & most are good blokes but we have to stop being a finishing school for other countries & do more to focus on our own talent before we waste another group of riders. We cannot just rely on the goodwill of parents and hope to remain a topline speedway nation.

 

Neil- best of luck to you and your lad!

Edited July 16, 2008 by mikegum

[wjm]

In response to the original post, fans support there team first and foremost and there country second or at least the majority do.

 

 

I do agree that fans want results from a Brit from there fist time on track and offer very little time or perseverance to they riders, more so if there struggle costs there club team points.

 

 

But that's what being a fan of a team is about you need to win its the same case being a promoter of a team you need to win.

 

 

If the team fails due to persevering with non progressive Brits and eventually leads to poor crowds and results and the closure of the club is it really worth it ?

 

If the team signs a Brit who is young genuinely talented say for example Auty I guess this is a similar case to Saijfutinov, he was a barging on 3.00 he was the talent every one wanted, if he got that many offers from different clubs would money become a priority to him rather than his career progressing ?.

 

Yet again putting the club that wants a Brit in a difficult position.

 

 

[spook]

In response to the original post, fans support there team first and foremost and there country second or at least the majority do.

 

 

I do agree that fans want results from a Brit from there fist time on track and offer very little time or perseverance to they riders, more so if there struggle costs there club team points.

 

 

But that's what being a fan of a team is about you need to win its the same case being a promoter of a team you need to win.

 

 

If the team fails due to persevering with non progressive Brits and eventually leads to poor crowds and results and the closure of the club is it really worth it ?

 

If the team signs a Brit who is young genuinely talented say for example Auty I guess this is a similar case to Saijfutinov, he was a barging on 3.00 he was the talent every one wanted, if he got that many offers from different clubs would money become a priority to him rather than his career progressing ?.

 

Yet again putting the club that wants a Brit in a difficult position.

 

What you are talking about with Josh Auty though is very different to what we are talking about in general here.......... not only that but you raise one of the few examples in recent years of a Brit being chased rather than a youngster from another country being chased........... exciting young talent will always be chased and they will always have the opportunity to raise their demands........ unless of course it is regulated ............. the difference is should we allow the exciting young talent from every speedway nation in the world to be an option on a low average in what is in effect one of our training leagues?

 

The point here is that for every Auty, Woffinden, Bridger etc there should be 10 others coming through with each of them............ there will always be those guys who are earmarked at an early age for greatness..... but there will always be those earmarked for greatness who never get there...... as there are also those who arent earmarked for greatness who do get there............ what we are talking about here are opportunities and volume

 

Which clubs have closed due to supporting brits? I'm very confused you have most definitely suggested that if clubs started doing this they would close.................. more to the point why arent promoters looking at the likes of Len Silver and seeing that the overseas asset game is just stocks and shares?.... a mini gambling game within what is supposed to be a professional sport.............. how much do we think Steve Boxall is 'worth' in loan fees or full transfer?

 

non progressive brits? eh? who is non progressive? we've been here before wjm .... and i'm sorry to say but the post you have created is exactly the type of post I was describing in my opening post when i said:

 

Every thread that comes up that discusses our grass roots and the youngsters that are or arent coming through we always have those supporters who's attitude towards it is defensive and almost as if they are replying on behalf of their own club's policy

 

I am pleased that you back Peter Waite and his most dubious transfer policy and choices in what riders he supports and which ones he discards after they have become an asset or a better option has come up somewhere in the far reaches of eastern europe ...... but overall it does no good for the league.... and lets face it overall it hasnt really done much good for Peter or the Bandits over the years.............. assets are an illusion and yet they are guiding the policies of most clubs .... and in the most negative way for the opportunities of our guys

[Ashie]

Not sure about anyone else but when the longest post ever has been posted going over the same thing that is being discussed in numerous other threads, I really can't be arsed to read it. Spook do me a favour and sumarise what you have said for me please

 

 

I think that sums this forum up, people who do not have the intelligence to read beyond one line and put up good, constructive debates. The originating thread starter put together a very thought provoking and constructive discussion topic and made some very valid points and the first reply he gets is.. "I really can't be arsed to read it."

[Ashie]

A rider who is living off winning 1 GP.

 

In fairness I don't think Chris is living off winning one GP, all be it the British GP it is Sky who have made him out to be a superstar rider from that single one GP. I dare say Harris himself admits he needs to be reaching semi-finals consistently to take him to that next stage in his development.

[Fromafar]

And between them they've managed two race wins in the GPs this season. I'd question whether either of them is "GP level" - Harris' win last year looks more and more like dumb luck, while the global superstar hasn't won a GP in over sixty attempts.

What i am saying is they are not out of their depth. After all they are not even in the bottom 2 in the points total. Therefore i dispute your point. 8th and 9th last your suggests to me they are GP level . Whether they remain there is another story IMO. Neither will ever be World Champ IMO but there again there are few others in the same boat. At this moment they are the top Brits.

[SUPERACE]

In Scott Nichols and Chris Harris Britain have 2 riders that are at GP level . IMO we have nobody else even close at this moment.Apart from Tai Woffinden i personaly cannot see where the next GP rider is coming from. If we believe the hype Britain have the riders but cant set up their bikes to suit the track conditions WHAT A LOAD OF SH*T. Dont know the answer either!

 

Chris Harris failed in th GP last year abd looks like failing AGAIN.

[wjm]

What you are talking about with Josh Auty though is very different to what we are talking about in general here.......... not only that but you raise one of the few examples in recent years of a Brit being chased rather than a youngster from another country being chased........... exciting young talent will always be chased and they will always have the opportunity to raise their demands........ unless of course it is regulated ............. the difference is should we allow the exciting young talent from every speedway nation in the world to be an option on a low average in what is in effect one of our training leagues?

 

The point here is that for every Auty, Woffinden, Bridger etc there should be 10 others coming through with each of them............ there will always be those guys who are earmarked at an early age for greatness..... but there will always be those earmarked for greatness who never get there...... as there are also those who arent earmarked for greatness who do get there............ what we are talking about here are opportunities and volume

 

Which clubs have closed due to supporting brits? I'm very confused you have most definitely suggested that if clubs started doing this they would close.................. more to the point why arent promoters looking at the likes of Len Silver and seeing that the overseas asset game is just stocks and shares?.... a mini gambling game within what is supposed to be a professional sport.............. how much do we think Steve Boxall is 'worth' in loan fees or full transfer?

 

non progressive brits? eh? who is non progressive? we've been here before wjm .... and i'm sorry to say but the post you have created is exactly the type of post I was describing in my opening post when i said:

 

 

 

I am pleased that you back Peter Waite and his most dubious transfer policy and choices in what riders he supports and which ones he discards after they have become an asset or a better option has come up somewhere in the far reaches of eastern europe ...... but overall it does no good for the league.... and lets face it overall it hasnt really done much good for Peter or the Bandits over the years.............. assets are an illusion and yet they are guiding the policies of most clubs .... and in the most negative way for the opportunities of our guys

 

 

It isn't just Berwick though its the league in general it isn't the PL teams responsibility to develop British riders

 

 

It is PL teams promoters responsibility to put a winning team on track as that is what fans want if this means signing a Dane,Swede,Finn,Australian in order to get a winning team they will always choose that option first.

 

The number of foreign riders in the PL does affect the Brits progressing when I say Brits who aren't getting better I mean riders like Birkinshaw,Dicken,Smethills,Evans what about riders like this are they not affecting the progression path of other riders ?.

 

It isn't just foreign riders that destroy the system

 

To a lesser extent you could even blame people like Parker,Havelock,Zorro who came to the PL for an easy life, there presence has a positive affect on the younger riders there presence is also a team place a Young Brit could have the PL isn't second tier Speedway any more it isn't just a step up to bigger things, it has turned into a step down the ladder for allot of riders, as has the CL

 

Rye is a one of they teams are investing allot of time and money into there youth development all credit to them,they have facilities and track time that others don't have they have a massive catchment area for talent that others dont have.

 

If you want to solve a problem of Brits have a centre for youngsters than draught them out to PL teams on a capped wage, then we would find out how much they want it.

 

To many riders in this country want to make a living or say " I'm a speedway rider " rather than having the attitude to make it IMO

 

 

No clubs have closed due to supporting Brits but if you demand a team like Glasgow, Berwick, Edinburgh to sign Brits , they have tried in the past, riders wont travel that far North is that the fault of the clubs ?, They demand an excessive fee ? That the fault of the club ? Glasgow could still be sticking with Cockle now and he was never going to make any thing of him self so they then just have a rider who is dead wood in there team and adding very little to the value of the club or product instances like this would drive fans away IMO where as another team has an Auty and in turn makes them a winning team where as Glasgow are onto a loser and then the club is in trouble.

 

 

Brits need to prove they are worthy of a team and IMO there isn't enough of them doing that.

[Fromafar]

After Cardiff i am sure if we had a world junior drinking competition, i am positive ayoung BRIT would win thats how dedicated they are to speedway

[Subedei]

After Cardiff i am sure if we had a world junior drinking competition, i am positive ayoung BRIT would win thats how dedicated they are to speedway

 

That's a great point.

The first action of the Great Britain manager should be to slap a socialising ban on the riders ahead of SWC meetings. I said after last season's debacle in Leszno that it wouldn't surprise me if the night before the final the British were out having a few jars and enjoying Poznan, while the Poles were either burning the midnight oil getting their bikes sorted or tucked up in bed.

 

[wjm]

After Cardiff i am sure if we had a world junior drinking competition, i am positive ayoung BRIT would win thats how dedicated they are to speedway

 

 

 

Correct

 

You can lead a horse to water and it might not drink it

 

Lead a Young Brit to the bar and he will drink it dry

Edited July 17, 2008 by wjm

[771neil]

so on the friday night after practise at cardiff there were no aussies on yankies getting drunk i heard a mr holder was all over the shop and yes i think it is wrong that any rider gets drunk in a city full of fans but you can tell me that f1 or moto gp stars don t drink cause i think they do lust behind closed doors.But they will live and learn like mr bridger he was a model rider on saturday at cardiff.

[wjm]

The big difference is its a rare occurrence for Holder, I can understand riders need a social life, more for some one like Holder who is well on the way to making it.

 

[771neil]

How do you know it s rare and how has he made it so its ok?????

[wjm]

How do you know it s rare and how has he made it so its ok?????

 

 

It isn't some thing I here of on a regular basis , and it if is some thing he is doing on a regular occurrence it isn't affecting his game, it does affect the Brits.

 

He will ride in a World Team Cup Final on Saturday , some thing the Brits wont be doing.

 

He is one of the most precious talents in World Speedway at the moment.

 

Can you tell me if it does happen on a regular basis ?.

 

And yes if he is having an occasional heavy night once in while fair play,he is on the way to making it IMO it is ok , call it reward for success.

 

 

The Brit riders I see pissed on a regular basis aint rewarding them selves, drowning there sorrows for there constant failure maybe, a bit of dedication and a few early nights wouldn't go a miss, racing in a meeting doesn't mean you have to go and get pissed in the bar afterwards

[771neil]

ok fair point but how many times have you seen scott, lee or chris pissed i have been around speedway as rider and merchanic for many years and not seen them drunk others who probably aren t interested in riding in gps or wtc but thats there choice i think

[wjm]

ok fair point but how many times have you seen scott, lee or chris pissed i have been around speedway as rider and merchanic for many years and not seen them drunk others who probably aren t interested in riding in gps or wtc but thats there choice i think

 

 

And that's the point I'm making Harris ,Richardson and Nicholls are the country's best performers and like you say you don't see them pissed in the bar every week because they are dedicated they would rather be on a plane to Poland or Sweden to improve them selves and that is to there credit and they have got the rewards other riders should follow there example, there isn't enough dedication from riders in this country IMO

[Trees]

How SAD it is that this thread is discussing how pissed riders get or not ................... professional sportsmen should never get pissed imo

[wjm]

How SAD it is that this thread is discussing how pissed riders get or not ................... professional sportsmen should never get pissed imo

 

 

 

Its a side note on the whole affair another bullet point under why Brits are struggling IMO.

 

I give you an example of a rider, being a Kings Lynn fan Doolan was wasting his career away due to a lack of dedication and probably finance, he went away and changed his life style and in turn his career around, sort of says some thing.

 

 

Talent wasn't the question with him it was the dedication

[771neil]

Your right there isn t but some of that is down to them not getting the help or sponsors or even team places i known that when english lad gets into a team he will get the least money and struggle for sponsors but a team bring a foreigner and he gets a bit better money , sponsors are found a place to live a van if needed and he will get a guarantee if he scores or not, so the whole thing is set up for them to do well plus if they have a bad spell they go home and practise for a week so maybe which we can t. Been up against it at the start puts them off and they just think well i can have a good life earn a bit and enjoy it, its better than working 9 to 5 like there mates.

 

Just my thoroughts