TwoMinuteWarning Posted June 26, 2008 Report Share Posted June 26, 2008 (edited) I have been sent a pic of the Birmingham team of the late 40's / early 50's. It's at http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/space5/news.htm (top photo) Can anyone help me identify the riders and officials? And, maybe the occasion that is being celebrated? Edited June 26, 2008 by TwoMinuteWarning Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOBBATH Posted June 26, 2008 Report Share Posted June 26, 2008 Well I can see Graham Warren there-but that's it-I reckon its before the Brummies went up to Div One or I think I'd recognise more of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yesterdaysman Posted June 26, 2008 Report Share Posted June 26, 2008 Bit before my time but I'll have a go:- I'll go for Doug Mclachlan, Brian Wilson, Bob Lovell, Graham Warren, Dont know, Les Marshall (promoter) Stan Dell, can't remember this chap's name, Geoff Bennett, Arthur Payne, and I reckon it could be early 1949. Birmingham had a fair old squad in them days so this would not be the same team for long. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOBBATH Posted June 27, 2008 Report Share Posted June 27, 2008 I stand to be corrected but surely that's not Arthur Payne-wonder if one of them is one of the Tolleys?? This is a tough challenge for sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TwoMinuteWarning Posted June 27, 2008 Author Report Share Posted June 27, 2008 (edited) Thank for your help guys, I agree it's not easy! Off-list, I've had information from Australia (thanks, GF!): 1st left: Doug McLachlan 3rd left: Buck Whitby 4th left: Graham Warren Far right: Arthur Payne These 4 only rode together in 1948 (in Div.2) and 1949 (Div.1) Other riders in the 1948 team were Stan Dell, Geoff Bennett, Charlie May, Brian Wilson, Roy Dook, Dick Tolley, and Ernie Appleby. Also Alan Hunt and Ray Beaumont in end-of-season meetings. In the 1949 team were Dell, Bennett, Wilson, and Tolley again; and also Wilbur Lamoreaux and D Hitchings. I think Lamoreaux is the only one I would be likely to recognise, and I don't see him in the photo. From the names you have suggested so far, it seems likely that this is the 1948 team. The only suggested name that dosen't fit is Bob Lovell (I have checked all the 1948 results at http://www.speedwayresearcher.org.uk/birmingham.html and Lovell dosen't figure in the Brummies team, or in the second-half races) So presumably this is Buck Whitby, as suggested by GF? Pic - with suggested line-up - at http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/space5/news.htm Edited June 27, 2008 by TwoMinuteWarning Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barcroftlad Posted June 28, 2008 Report Share Posted June 28, 2008 I'm pretty sure that is not Bob Lovell in the photo.I remember Bob from his Odsal days, and I'm pretty sure that he was with Odsal in 1949, not sure about 1948.Cheers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BOBBATH Posted June 28, 2008 Report Share Posted June 28, 2008 Yes its definitely Arthur Payne-in my original comment I did not realise there was more of the picture to the right(it wasn't all showing on my computer) so the guy I thought was standing on the far right was actually the one in from Arthur( I know !! I know !!! I'm a technopeasant!!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iris123 Posted June 28, 2008 Report Share Posted June 28, 2008 Is it certain that the guy behind Dell isn't Lameroux?I have a programme from that time with a photo of Lammy and there are definite similarities other than the guy in the photo has more hair.But that might just be down to Brylcreem Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
star ghost Posted June 28, 2008 Report Share Posted June 28, 2008 Looks like Charlie May third from left and definitely Buck Whitby third from the right Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knowle Posted June 28, 2008 Report Share Posted June 28, 2008 Looks like Charlie May third from left and definitely Buck Whitby third from the right Agree with that. This only leaves the presenter of the trophy unidentified. Cannot be the 1948 league trophy as Bristol won it but Birmingham were promoted! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stansolo Posted June 28, 2008 Report Share Posted June 28, 2008 Agree with that. This only leaves the presenter of the trophy unidentified. Cannot be the 1948 league trophy as Bristol won it but Birmingham were promoted! My Take - Left to Right Mclachan, Wilson, UNSURE?, Warren, CAKE RECIEVER?, Marshall, Dell, Whitby, Bennett, Payne Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
star ghost Posted June 29, 2008 Report Share Posted June 29, 2008 I agree those named by stansolo with Charlie May third from left. This is 1948 as in 1949 May rode for Walthamstow, not being part of the Division One line-up, where he was replaced by Wilbur Lamoreaux. As to this event it could be a presentation at the end of the National Trophy Second Division Sectional Final in August. The sky is still daylight which rules out an end of season night. The final was at the beginning of August. From memory there was no cup for this feat, just a place in with the First Division teams in the next round. This is only a guess however. Touching on that "elevation" to Division One I have always thought that Bristol were by-passed for 3 reasons. Firstly crowdwise ........................... far more attended @ Brum than Bristol Secondly travelling ........................ Bristol was more difficult to reach in those days Thirdly the London promoters wanted Graham Warren and the only way to get him was to promote his team as Les Marshall would not have dared to transfer G W to somewhere else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigel Posted June 29, 2008 Report Share Posted June 29, 2008 (edited) "Cracking Photo" It is definately Buck Whitby 3rd from the right Judging by the flag in the background the opposition were Norwich I think the occasion was someones Birthday??? The tall gent in the centre may be team manager and Joint Promoter George Buck????? ( have not had time to do a thorough check) Edit:- on second thoughts Geo. Buck was a much shorter man? Noticed there was not a lot of dirt on the track, looked awfully slick. Edited June 29, 2008 by Nigel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TwoMinuteWarning Posted June 29, 2008 Author Report Share Posted June 29, 2008 (edited) By common consent, it now seems that the line-up on the pic at http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/space5/news.htm is: (left to right) Doug McLachlan Brian Wilson Charlie May Graham Warren unknown presenter of cake promoter Les Marshall Stan Dell Buck Whitby Geoff Bennett Arthur Payne Thanks for spotting the Norwich flag! This suggests that the meeting was indeed the National Trophy 2nd Division Final (details from the fabulous Speedway Researcher site): Monday 2nd August 1948 Perry Barr, Birmingham Birmingham Brummies 79 - Norwich Stars 28 (National Trophy Division Two Final 2nd Leg) Birmingham Stan Dell 3 3 2’ 2 3 13 1 Arthur Payne 2’ 3 2’ 3 2’ 2 14 3 Doug McLachlan 3 2 1 1’ 2’ 9 2 Geoff Bennett 2’ 1’ 2’ 2’ 1’ 8 5 Graham Warren 3 3 3 3 3 15 Brian Wilson F 2’ 3 2’ 2 9 2 Charlie May 2’ 3 1’ 6 2 Buck Whitby 3 2’ 5 1 Norwich Ted Bravery 1 0 1 0 0 2 Paddy Mills EF 3 3 1 F 3 10 Reg Morgan 0 0 0 Sid Littlewood EF 0 0 1 1 2 Aussie Powell 1 2 1 1 0 0 5 Phil Clarke 0 1 0 1 3 5 Jack Freeman 1 0 1 Geoff Revett 2 EF 0 0 1 3 The Brummies line-up matches exactly! By the way, examining the original pic closely, I can confirm that the item being presented is a cake. The letters B R U M are visible around the edge. Many thanks to all of you for your help, it really is much appreciated. Edited June 29, 2008 by TwoMinuteWarning Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigel Posted June 29, 2008 Report Share Posted June 29, 2008 By common consent, it now seems that the line-up on the pic at http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/space5/news.htm is: Thanks for spotting the Norwich flag! This suggests that the meeting was indeed the National Trophy 2nd Division Final (details from the fabulous Speedway Researcher site): The riders are spotlessly clean which suggests the presentation was pre-match Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigel Posted June 29, 2008 Report Share Posted June 29, 2008 (edited) Someone with a much greater store of knowlage than myself has just passed this info to me. quote:- The Cake was presented to the Brummies to Celebrate their victory over West Ham in the National Trophy. And was gift of H.V. Smith Ltd, Of Lodge Road, Hockley, Birthday, Wedding Cake and Confectionery experts. as a token pride in the achievements of the Birmingham speedway team. I think the man in the middle is H.V Smith as he wrote the notes in the programme. Hope this helps you, and remember always ask a Cradley man. ... End Quote:- I believe the presentation was made 4th September 1948 Brum V Norwich Edited June 29, 2008 by Nigel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knowle Posted June 29, 2008 Report Share Posted June 29, 2008 Someone with a much greater store of knowlage than myself has just passed this info to me. quote:- The Cake was presented to the Brummies to Celebrate their victory over West Ham in the National Trophy. And was gift of H.V. Smith Ltd, Of Lodge Road, Hockley, Birthday, Wedding Cake and Confectionery experts. as a token pride in the achievements of the Birmingham speedway team. I think the man in the middle is H.V Smith as he wrote the notes in the programme. Hope this helps you, and remember always ask a Cradley man. ... End Quote:- I believe the presentation was made 4th September 1948 Brum V Norwich Fantastic detective work put in on this thread-most interesting,some confusion caused by some people not viewing the complete picture. I believe that Geoff Bennett is still around. Can anyone confirm that and is he the sole survivor? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yesterdaysman Posted June 29, 2008 Report Share Posted June 29, 2008 Hi Knowle, Slightly off topic, I've just got back from Bristol, stayed there the weekend and did Somerset and Cardiff meetings. This morning I bought the book "Bristol Bulldogs 50 Greats," would you believe in Asda ! Anyway, sorry if I misled but I new Buck Whitby was in the '48 team but could not remember his name, and thought it early '49 and he may have been replaced by 'Lammy' later on. Sorry to all if I caused any confusion but I was only nine then and didn't even know where Birmingham was, I was just starting to watch speedway and follow my local third division team Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TwoMinuteWarning Posted June 29, 2008 Author Report Share Posted June 29, 2008 Someone with a much greater store of knowlage than myself has just passed this info to me. quote:- The Cake was presented to the Brummies to Celebrate their victory over West Ham in the National Trophy. And was gift of H.V. Smith Ltd, Of Lodge Road, Hockley, Birthday, Wedding Cake and Confectionery experts. as a token pride in the achievements of the Birmingham speedway team. I think the man in the middle is H.V Smith as he wrote the notes in the programme. Hope this helps you, and remember always ask a Cradley man. ... End Quote:- I believe the presentation was made 4th September 1948 Brum V Norwich I'm flabbergasted!!! Is there no end to the vast array of knowledge on this forum??!! Thank you Nigel - and Mr.Cradley By the way, there is ONE question I would never ask a Cradley man ... "Can you tell me the way to Wolverhampton Speedway please?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigel Posted June 30, 2008 Report Share Posted June 30, 2008 Fantastic detective work put in on this thread-most interesting,some confusion caused by some people not viewing the complete picture. I believe that Geoff Bennett is still around. Can anyone confirm that and is he the sole survivor? I believe Geoff Bennett is still with us, though I understand he has been poorly of late. Arthur Payne is I believe, also still with us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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