Hammer Posted March 23, 2008 Report Share Posted March 23, 2008 If the SWC is an international team event, why do the riders ride on their own????? Speedway outsiders must think team speedway is a joke if it's just a collection of seven individuals It would be much better to have team pairs in the races - maybe then the abysmal standard of racing would be improved? Could we have a fairly interesting World Cup this year please, with maybe some of the riders actually bothering - if not, lets scrap it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T.N.T. Posted March 24, 2008 Report Share Posted March 24, 2008 (edited) I prefer the old 16 races with four in each team and a sub ready to ride. Add to that 4 nominated heats and it works well. Possibly the best final involving pairs would be easily done. ENGLAND (Not Team GB) 01 Scott Nicholls 02 Lee Richardson 03 Chris Harris 04 David Howe SWEDEN 05 Andreas Jonsson 06 Mikael Max 07 Fredrik Lindgren 08 Peter Karlsson DENMARK 09 Nicki Pedersen 10 Kenneth Bjerre 11 Hans Andersen 12 Neils K Iversen POLAND 13 Tomasz Gollob 14 Krzysztof Kasprzak 15 Jarek Hampel 16 Rune Holta Reserves 17 Simon Stead ENG 18 Jonas Davidsson SWE 19 Charlie Gjedde DEN 20 Karol Zabik POL teams are only examples HEAT 01 = ENG 01 - 02 V SWE 05 - 06 HEAT 02 = DEN 09 - 10 V POL 13 - 14 HEAT 03 = ENG 03 - 04 V DEN 11 - 12 HEAT 04 = SWE 07 - 08 V POL 15 - 16 HEAT 05 = ENG 01 - 02 V POL 13 - 14 HEAT 06 = DEN 09 - 10 V SWE 05 - 06 HEAT 07 = ENG 03 - 04 V SWE 07 - 08 HEAT 08 = DEN 11 - 12 V POL 15 - 16 HEAT 09 = ENG 01 - 02 V DEN 09 - 10 HEAT 10 = SWE 05 - 06 V POL 13 - 14 HEAT 11 = ENG 03 - 04 V DEN 09 - 10 HEAT 12 = SWE 07 - 08 V POL 13 - 14 HEAT 13 = ENG 01 - 02 V POL 15 - 16 HEAT 14 = SWE 05 - 06 V DEN 11 - 12 HEAT 15 = ENG 03 - 04 V POL 13 - 14 HEAT 16 = DEN 09 - 10 V SWE 07 - 08 HEAT 17 = ENG 01 - 02 V DEN 11 - 12 HEAT 18 = ENG 03 - 04 V SWE 05 - 06 HEAT 19 = POL 13 - 14 V DEN 11 - 12 HEAT 20 = SWE 07 - 08 V ENG 01 - 02 HEAT 21 = SWE 05 - 06 V POL 15 - 16 HEAT 22 = ENG any 2 V POL any 2 HEAT 23 = SWE any 2 V DEN any 2 HEAT 24 = ENG any 2 V DEN any 2 HEAT 25 = POL any 2 V SWE any 2 HEAT 26 = DEN any 2 V POL any 2 HEAT 27 = ENG any 2 V SWE any 2 riders can take a maximum of 2 rides each in heats 22-27 other option is to forget Heats 22-27 Edited March 24, 2008 by T.N.T. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LaKazza Posted March 24, 2008 Report Share Posted March 24, 2008 Surley Bjarne Pedersen would feature in the danish team... and depending on where it was held Jonas Davidsson would be in the swedish team ahead of Mikael Max. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T.N.T. Posted March 24, 2008 Report Share Posted March 24, 2008 teams are only examples Surley Bjarne Pedersen would feature in the danish team... and depending on where it was held Jonas Davidsson would be in the swedish team ahead of Mikael Max. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hammer Posted April 17, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 17, 2009 But why is the world cup a meeting of individual riders and not pairs like league racing??????????????????????? Surely it would be better if it was Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Humphrey Appleby Posted April 17, 2009 Report Share Posted April 17, 2009 If the SWC is an international team event, why do the riders ride on their own????? It would be much better to have team pairs in the races - maybe then the abysmal standard of racing would be improved? Well a four-term format is used for good reasons. Firstly, only about five or six nations could track full test sides, and small sided teams allow more countries to be competitive. Secondly, it's not practical for all nations (e.g. USA and Australia) to ride home meetings in the SWC, and neither are meetings at neutral venues a financial success. The four-team format also means that fewer venues need to be found, and fewer meetings need to be staged to complete the competition which is important for most federations. As to why teams don't ride in pairs. Well there is a reasonable 4-team, 24-heat format where teammates compete in pairs, and this was actually used in the old WTC for a couple of years around 2000. However, because every team doesn't ride in every heat, there was too much scope for contrived results, and it also complicated working out things like tactical rides and tactical substitutions. The classic 4TT format has probably endured because of familiarity. It's been around for decades, and is actually very similar to the classic individual format. It probably also better suits the majority of countries that only have individual racing. A SWC between full test sides (i.e. 2 teams of 7 or 8 riders) sounds good in theory, but would actually be totally impractical the way international speedway is these days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Humphrey Appleby Posted April 17, 2009 Report Share Posted April 17, 2009 other option is to forget Heats 22-27 I know it's only an example, but something isn't right with the suggested format. Four teams of four riders with every pair riding every other pair would produce 24 heats. You could scale the number of heats up or down (at the expense of having pairs meeting different numbers of times or not at all), but only in blocks of 6 heats if you want to ensure every team has the same number of rides. So your choice is a 18, 24 or 30 heat meeting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
21st century heathen Posted April 17, 2009 Report Share Posted April 17, 2009 If the SWC is an international team event, why do the riders ride on their own????? Speedway outsiders must think team speedway is a joke if it's just a collection of seven individuals It would be much better to have team pairs in the races - maybe then the abysmal standard of racing would be improved? Could we have a fairly interesting World Cup this year please, with maybe some of the riders actually bothering - if not, lets scrap it So that would be the World Pairs then! I guess if you're relatively new to the sport you may have missed it. It was ditched before the World Team Cup was revamped into the World Cup, so I guess it was due to scheduling. Can't see the problem to be honest. Speedway has team and individual racing and this is a combo of both. And it's provided some of the best speedway over the last few years. Maybe we've been watching different meetings?! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Humphrey Appleby Posted April 17, 2009 Report Share Posted April 17, 2009 So that would be the World Pairs then! The World Pairs was a good competition. In fact, the World Pairs actually became the WTC when one team competition had to make way for the SGP, but it just wasn't very credible to claim that 3 riders (one of which was reserve) constituted a national team. I think the four team format returned after a few years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lucifer sam Posted April 17, 2009 Report Share Posted April 17, 2009 (edited) I prefer the old 16 races with four in each team and a sub ready to ride. Add to that 4 nominated heats and it works well. Possibly the best final involving pairs would be easily done. ENGLAND (Not Team GB) 01 Scott Nicholls 02 Lee Richardson 03 Chris Harris 04 David Howe SWEDEN 05 Andreas Jonsson 06 Mikael Max 07 Fredrik Lindgren 08 Peter Karlsson DENMARK 09 Nicki Pedersen 10 Kenneth Bjerre 11 Hans Andersen 12 Neils K Iversen POLAND 13 Tomasz Gollob 14 Krzysztof Kasprzak 15 Jarek Hampel 16 Rune Holta Reserves 17 Simon Stead ENG 18 Jonas Davidsson SWE 19 Charlie Gjedde DEN 20 Karol Zabik POL teams are only examples HEAT 01 = ENG 01 - 02 V SWE 05 - 06 HEAT 02 = DEN 09 - 10 V POL 13 - 14 HEAT 03 = ENG 03 - 04 V DEN 11 - 12 HEAT 04 = SWE 07 - 08 V POL 15 - 16 HEAT 05 = ENG 01 - 02 V POL 13 - 14 HEAT 06 = DEN 09 - 10 V SWE 05 - 06 HEAT 07 = ENG 03 - 04 V SWE 07 - 08 HEAT 08 = DEN 11 - 12 V POL 15 - 16 HEAT 09 = ENG 01 - 02 V DEN 09 - 10 HEAT 10 = SWE 05 - 06 V POL 13 - 14 HEAT 11 = ENG 03 - 04 V DEN 09 - 10 HEAT 12 = SWE 07 - 08 V POL 13 - 14 HEAT 13 = ENG 01 - 02 V POL 15 - 16 HEAT 14 = SWE 05 - 06 V DEN 11 - 12 HEAT 15 = ENG 03 - 04 V POL 13 - 14 HEAT 16 = DEN 09 - 10 V SWE 07 - 08 HEAT 17 = ENG 01 - 02 V DEN 11 - 12 HEAT 18 = ENG 03 - 04 V SWE 05 - 06 HEAT 19 = POL 13 - 14 V DEN 11 - 12 HEAT 20 = SWE 07 - 08 V ENG 01 - 02 HEAT 21 = SWE 05 - 06 V POL 15 - 16 HEAT 22 = ENG any 2 V POL any 2 HEAT 23 = SWE any 2 V DEN any 2 HEAT 24 = ENG any 2 V DEN any 2 HEAT 25 = POL any 2 V SWE any 2 HEAT 26 = DEN any 2 V POL any 2 HEAT 27 = ENG any 2 V SWE any 2 riders can take a maximum of 2 rides each in heats 22-27 other option is to forget Heats 22-27 TNT, you are hopless at times - you've got different countries riding in a different number of heats. 27 x 2 / 4 = 13.5, which is not a whole number. All the best Rob Edited April 17, 2009 by lucifer sam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lucifer sam Posted April 17, 2009 Report Share Posted April 17, 2009 As to why teams don't ride in pairs. Well there is a reasonable 4-team, 24-heat format where teammates compete in pairs, and this was actually used in the old WTC for a couple of years around 2000. However, because every team doesn't ride in every heat, there was too much scope for contrived results, and it also complicated working out things like tactical rides and tactical substitutions. Yes, the result of the 2000 World Team Cup was somewhat controversial and after that a 4-team, 24-heat format involving pairs was quietly dropped. A PROPER World Team Cup would only involve two teams in each meeting. Two groups of four, with Group A & B matches (two each) taking place on alternate. Schedule could be: Day 1 - Thursday - Group A matches x 2 Day 2 - Friday - Group B matches x 2 Day 3 - Saturday - Group A matches x 2 Day 4 - Sunday - Group B matches x 2 Day 5 - Monday - Group A matches x 2 Day 6 - Tuesday - Group B matches x 2 (Restaging date for all group matches is the following day) Day 8 - Thursday - SF1 - winner Group A v runner-up Group B Day 9 - Friday - SF2 - winner Group B v runner-up Group A (Restaging date for semis is Day 10 - Saturday) Day 11 - Sunday - the final (Restaging date Day 12 - Monday) Prospective groups Group A - Denmark, Australia, England, Czech Republic. Group B - Poland, Sweden, USA, Russia. All the best Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T.N.T. Posted April 17, 2009 Report Share Posted April 17, 2009 I posted this as a rough example ..... 13 months ago Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lucifer sam Posted April 18, 2009 Report Share Posted April 18, 2009 I posted this as a rough example ..... 13 months ago A VERY rough example All the best Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deano Posted April 18, 2009 Report Share Posted April 18, 2009 (edited) I posted this as a rough example ..... 13 months ago Some people on here do have a habit of picking up on errors and detail rather than answering the question or topic sometimes don't they.? I actually favour a seven man team format with just two teams per meeting over two weeks, like the football world cup. But this will never happen as it would be unviable and there isn't enough riders and neither is there enough quality teams. Although this would open the gates for the likes of wales and scotland to compete although the usual few teams will stand heads and shoulders above others. Edited April 18, 2009 by Deano Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bruno Posted April 18, 2009 Report Share Posted April 18, 2009 is it me i thought the last few years has been brilliant racing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iris123 Posted April 18, 2009 Report Share Posted April 18, 2009 Some people on here do have a habit of picking up on errors and detail rather than answering the question or topic sometimes don't they.? I actually favour a seven man team format with just two teams per meeting over two weeks, like the football world cup. But this will never happen as it would be unviable and there isn't enough riders and neither is there enough quality teams. Although this would open the gates for the likes of wales and scotland to compete although the usual few teams will stand heads and shoulders above others. I don't get how making it 7 man teams will open it up for Wales or Scotland when they couldnt even compete with 4 or 5 man teams!!!Even disregarding the rules that seem to bar them from competing in FIM events anyway Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hammer Posted April 20, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 20, 2009 I thought I would try my yearly SWC question again and have failed to have it answered, again I'll try again next year!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemini Posted April 20, 2009 Report Share Posted April 20, 2009 Damn stupid idea I agree but it doesn't look like it's going to change any time soon and your chances of getting a reply as to why don't look very good either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deano Posted April 20, 2009 Report Share Posted April 20, 2009 I don't get how making it 7 man teams will open it up for Wales or Scotland when they couldnt even compete with 4 or 5 man teams!!!Even disregarding the rules that seem to bar them from competing in FIM events anyway Just do what the Irish do..... if you are a 700th generation decendant or a cousin 900 times removed ... your in! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HenryW Posted April 20, 2009 Report Share Posted April 20, 2009 I thought I would try my yearly SWC question again and have failed to have it answered, again I'll try again next year!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! A rather strange statement considering Humphrey gave you a perfectly detailed explanation of the reasons for the current set-up! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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