World Final V Grand Prix

[Kevin Meynell]

Kevin mate as much as you dont want to hear it, GP's will be here for many many years..

 

As I stated earlier, I'm not against the principle of the GPs, just the manner in which they're constituted.

[Silver Bee]

Again you miss the point. The multi-disciplinary nature of motorcycle sport means that national federations are frequently represented by non-speedway people, many of whom represent amateur arms of the sport. In the case of the UK, it's the ACU which is dominated by road racing and grasstrack people.

 

More to the point, the constitutional set-up of the FIM gives as much weight to the vote of Outer Mongolia as it does to the Britain, Sweden or Poland. Is it right that countries that don't stage speedway, can vote to make decisions that affect the countries that actually have extensive professional competitions?

It could only happen if the major speedway countries got tired of non-speedway people making decisions at the FIM, and decided to run their own competitions outside the jurisdictions of national federations.

If the British, Polish and Swedish leagues made a decision not to employ SGP riders, that would be the end of the SGP. There isn't the money to support a full-time SGP circus, and it's only viable because the national leagues effectively subsidise it.

 

BSI do nothing especially clever, and nothing that the national speedway leagues couldn't have done if any of them had any vision (which is of course the issue).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

No YOU are missing the point. FIM own it. It's THAT simple. Who they employ within FIM to govern over the speedway world championship is entirely up to them and no-one else.

 

The FIM could impose a rule on voting on such issues to only allow major speedwaying nature a vote, but that's up to them. Whilst you may not think it's fair because you've lost your beloved world finals because of it, there's nothing you can do about it, FIM have done nothing wrong. If the FIM want the GP series so be it. They want speedway to fit in line with other sports they govern over and the GP series is the way to go.

 

Why on earth would these leagues want rid of GP riders? They are the big name draws at the end of the day and they're the riders that bring the crowds in. Say in 2007 the british Swedish and Polish leagues ALL banned riders who ride in the GP. You think that would have a positive effect on both speedway in these countries and the world championship as a whole?

 

If so, how? Would the BSPA and the Swedish and Polish governing bodies all join together to create a world championship with a world final? Dream On

 

BSI do a good job at running the Grand Prix series. I'm happy with the product and the standard of racing it produces and Cardiff is a sensational product of BSI's entry into speedway, which wouldn;t have happened with the 1 off world final.

[Kevin Meynell]

FIM own it. It's THAT simple.

 

It's never that simple, despite your attempts to make it so.

 

They want speedway to fit in line with other sports they govern over and the GP series is the way to go.

 

Except speedway has an entirely different structure to other motorcycling disciplines.

 

Why on earth would these leagues want rid of GP riders?

 

The other leagues (particularly the Polish leagues) might get unhappy if the SGP expands and they start losing their riders for matches during GP weekends, or those riders get injured by riding in the GPs. My point though, was that they wouldn't actually lose the riders. It the riders were made to choose between the SGP and league racing, I'd wager 100% of them would opt for league racing because they couldn't make a living in the SGP alone.

 

If so, how? Would the BSPA and the Swedish and Polish governing bodies all join together to create a world championship with a world final? Dream On 

 

I'm not suggesting they revert to an old-style world championship. I'm suggesting that with a bit of initiative, they could run the SGP themselves for their own benefit.

 

BSI do a good job at running the Grand Prix series.

 

Well even putting aside the issues relating to the terms on which they have the SGP, I do not think BSI are actually that great at promotion. They are probably better than most of the current shower, but then it could be argued that organising 11 events with the pick of the best dates and riders is easier than running weekly speedway on cold, wet October evenings. I could go on about crappy websites, track preparation, cancelled meetings with fans in the stadium, and total lack of promotion of most of the events, but I suspect you just don't wish to see it (just as I tend to see the downsides of their involvement). The bottom line is that if you enjoy, that's great, but I'm afraid I remain to be convinced.

Edited September 26, 2007 by Kevin Meynell

[Silver Bee]

It's never that simple, despite your attempts to make it so.

 

 

Except speedway has an entirely different structure to other motorcycling disciplines.

 

 

The other leagues (particularly the Polish leagues) might get unhappy if the SGP expands and they start losing their riders for matches during GP weekends, or those riders get injured by riding in the GPs. My point though, was that they wouldn't actually lose the riders. It the riders were made to choose between the SGP and league racing, I'd wager 100% of them would opt for league racing because they couldn't make a living in the SGP alone.

 

 

I'm not suggesting they revert to an old-style world championship. I'm suggesting that with a bit of initiative, they could run the SGP themselves for their own benefit.

 

 

Well even putting aside the issues relating to the terms on which they have the SGP, I do not think BSI are actually that great at promotion. They are probably better than most of the current shower, but then it could be argued that organising 11 events with the pick of the best dates and riders is easier than running weekly speedway on cold, wet October evenings. I could go on about crappy websites, track preparation, cancelled meetings with fans in the stadium, and total lack of promotion of most of the events, but I suspect you just don't wish to see it (just as I tend to see the downsides of their involvement). The bottom line is that if you enjoy, that's great, but I'm afraid I remain to be convinced.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

No it is that simple, so why complicate it? FIM hold the rights to the speedway world championship as it currently stands. That is THE bottom line.

 

Speedway is different because of the league structures, on that much we agree, but the FIM do NOT take that into account. Whether they should or not is a different matter all together but from their point of view they are doing nothing wrong. For them if they lost speedway, I doubt it would be a huge loss with the other disciplines of sport they hold rights too.

 

OK I can see that they wouldn't lose the riders, but would it be fair unless the leagues came up with a positive alternative solution for the riders not be able to compete for the world championship. They would effectively be blocking them from earning even more money and denying them an opportunity to become world champion.

 

Personally, I don't believe the leagues are in a position to take on the task of running the GP series, let alone the fact each of the 3 separate entities that would be involved would all want different things for their own country. In principle it could work, in reality I very much doubt it would be a successful way forward but that's a matter of opinion.

 

BSI do a good job, they know how to attract big crowds, big sponsers e.t.c to the event. They were the ones bold enough to take the GP's to the Millenium Stadium and Italy e.t.c and it's paid off for them. There are lots of promoting companies in the world that may well do a better job than BSI, but ones that would be interested in the SGP? I very much doubt it.

[iris123]

Just who are these "big sponsors"? Meridian Lifts,maybe?

There are practically no "big sponsors".

[The Know]

Just who are these "big sponsors"? Meridian Lifts,maybe?

There are practically no "big sponsors".

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Why dont you take their place. Or cant you afford it.

[Kevin Meynell]

For them if they lost speedway, I doubt it would be a huge loss with the other disciplines of sport they hold rights too.

 

Undoubtedly not, although they'd lose a few grand in rights fees.

 

would it be fair unless the leagues came up with a positive alternative solution for the riders not be able to compete for the world championship.

 

Is it any fairer that the SGP takes the plum dates from the national leagues (and particularly the BEL)? In any case, there would always be some sort of world championship, even if the national leagues ran it themselves under their own auspices.

 

They would effectively be blocking them from earning even more money and denying them an opportunity to become world champion.

 

There's no obligation on any employer to allow an employee to have another job if it means they're unavailable for work on the days they're contracted to work.

 

I don't believe the leagues are in a position to take on the task of running the GP series, let alone the fact each of the 3 separate entities that would be involved would all want different things for their own country.

 

There is undoubtedly a lack of vision on the part of the national leagues, or they have been 'placated' in some manner. However, there is absolutely no reason in principle why they couldn't collectively run the SGP themselves, with any profits divided amongst themselves. BSI don't do anything especially clever, and certainly now the sport has demonstrated there's a television audience for it, there's even less reason for them to be involved.

 

In sports such as cricket, it's accepted that domestic competitions are disrupted by Test and ODI matches because these are run by the national boards and bring-in the money that is used to subsidise the clubs. However, I struggle to think of any other sport that allows its domestic competitions to be disrupted without any recompense whatsover, and particularly not to enrich a private organisation with no other links to the sport.

 

they know how to attract big crowds, big sponsers e.t.c to the event.

 

They attract big crowds to about three GPs, and moderate crowds to a couple of others. The other GPs are no better than some domestic league audiences. As for the big sponsors, precisely who are they? Even your average county cricket side probably has bigger and more recognisable names.

Edited September 26, 2007 by Kevin Meynell

[Kevin Meynell]

Why dont you take their place. Or cant you afford it.

 

And as a matter of interest, what sort of publicity do you get for your sponsorship?

[The Know]

And as a matter of interest, what sort of publicity do you get for your sponsorship? 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I would think not a lot. Depends on how you would veiw it. cheap tele advertising but you wont get a return out of sponsoring speedway. most speedway sponsors do it because they like the sport and no other reason.

[Arthur Daley]

.... I do not think BSI are actually that great at promotion. They are probably better than most of the current shower, but then it could be argued that organising 11 events with the pick of the best dates and riders is easier than running weekly speedway on cold, wet October evenings. I could go on about crappy websites, track preparation, cancelled meetings with fans in the stadium, and total lack of promotion of most of the events, but I suspect you just don't wish to see it (just as I tend to see the downsides of their involvement). The bottom line is that if you enjoy, that's great, but I'm afraid I remain to be convinced.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Actually I would like to read your thoughts as I'd probably agree with them.

 

I think promoting a GP in each individual country and selling tickets is a 1000 times easier than getting a crowd in each week at a league club.

 

Where are the big sponsors we were promised years back from BSI?

And don't tell me Meridian Lifts. It's just the same old few speedway sponsors recycled.

 

As you have already stated on a number of posts, a complete highjacking of the riders and prime dates with no regard for the bread and butter of league racing and no compensation to the clubs when they withdraw from league racing as a result.

 

BSI have even started to believe their own hype and hence when they went into Reading they thought that the fans would flock in large numbers - how wrong they were.

 

But what actual promotion have they done at EL or GP level?

 

The GPs look good on the box and in actual fact they are, but any reasonable organisation could make a success of them when you are selling 1, or 2 at the most, events in each country a year.

 

Try doing that every week at domestic league and it's not so easy.

 

To BSI's credit the good things they have done is the British GP at Cardiff. Can't fault that at all. Also the Speedway World Cup is superb.

Edited September 26, 2007 by Arthur Daley

[Kevin Meynell]

Also the Speedway World Cup is superb.

 

In fact, it's a shame they haven't made much more of this competition.

[sancho]

To BSI's credit the good things they have done is the British GP at Cardiff.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

YEP they got a stadium big enough to cater for the crowd

[Mr. Clemens]

Why? Because Nicki Pedersen is winning the world title by a fair way? Because Crump did the same last year? and Rickardsson the year before?

 

All 3 of them could quite easily have scored a 15 point max in a world final on the form they've each shown in the last 3 last years, would that have been predictable if they'd romped to world titles on world final night? 

 

Just as a matter of interest, what are your views on the play-offs? Better to have a fairer indication of how good a team is over the whole season don't you think?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

You are right all three could have scored a 15 point max - and all three of them could have fallen off in their first race - and even cooler - they could have all three fallen off in the first race - one of em could have been excluded - the other injured - and unable to take further part in the meeting - and the third his bike unfit for further use - scoring four last places in his remaining rides - and folk would have been talking animatedly about the unfairness of it all - 20 years down the line - romantic or what

 

Me I have said it more than once to people - those who top the league are champions

 

But - the powers that be deem that's not good enough - therefore we will have an extra competition so as to give someone else a chance - because we are not enamoured of those who have topped the league

 

I suggested a further extension to this - after last years final - on the BSF Advocating that - those who win the play offs - would then take on those who received the wooden spoon

 

Thus - if the wooden spoonists - should happen to sign up a couple of riders - who were a cut above those riding for them through the season - they could then beat the play off winners - and as a result - those who finished at the bottom of the league - would in effect be Elite League Champions - me I think it's a spiffing idea

[Silver Bee]

You are right all three could have scored a 15 point max - and all three of them could have fallen off in their first race - and even cooler - they could have all three fallen off in the first race - one of em could have been excluded - the other injured - and unable to take further part in the meeting - and the third his bike unfit for further use - scoring four last places in his remaining rides - and folk would have been talking animatedly about the unfairness of it all - 20 years down the line - romantic or what 

 

Me I have said it more than once to people - those who top the league are champions

 

But - the powers that be deem that's not good enough - therefore we will have an extra competition so as to give someone else a chance - because we are not enamoured of those who have topped the league

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Thank You for proving my point so well.

 

Awarding the league title to whoever finished top of the league gives a fair representation of how a team has performed that season yes? Just like the GP's.

 

The play-offs allow a team in a good run-off form to sneak in in 4th and still have an opportunity to win the league, much like the 1 off world final.

 

Someone could sneak through the qualifying rounds in 8th, even ninth if riders end up injured but hit form on world final and win the world title. According to you that's amazing, but in principle it would be the same as the 4th place team being on blistering form and winning the play-offs

[Mr. Clemens]

 

Thank You for proving my point so well.

 

Awarding the league title to whoever finished top of the league gives a fair representation of how a team has performed that season yes? Just like the GP's.

 

The play-offs allow a team in a good run-off form to sneak in in 4th and still have an opportunity to win the league, much like the 1 off world final.

 

Someone could sneak through the qualifying rounds in 8th, even ninth if riders end up injured but hit form on world final and win the world title. According to you that's amazing, but in principle it would be the same as the 4th place team being on blistering form and winning the play-offs 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Adroitly done - but none the less I still prefer the old world finals - and still doesn't alter the fact that the GPs are becoming as dull as dishwater

 

And after the end of last years GPS - I said Nicki Pedersen had served notice that he was going to be world champion at the end of 2007

He was saying - I have overcome the problems with my arms - I am fit and raring to go - I intend to apply myself to the job in hand from this point on - which he did - and ended up world champion

 

The only reason I watched the GPs this season was to keep a check on Nicki's progress to see if his dedication to the job in hand was 100% or just talk

He proved on more than one occaison that it was 100 % dedication - and I stood up and applauded him when he crossed the line - a job well done

 

But I still would prefer to see Anders Michanek score a blistering 15 point max

because within that performance is found the deep spirit that motivates life

There is no deep spirit in routine - the magic is in the unexpected - the unbelievable

 

I believe in the impossible - you know that I do

 

[MARK246]

Someone could sneak through the qualifying rounds in 8th,

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Sounds like a GP circus moment, what a joke you can be world champion with out winning a single GP race.

10 points through to the semi's, 5 second places.

Second in the semi final.

second or third in the final.

that is either 16 or 14 points, 11 GP's, total 154 points for thirds circus over.

[Silver Bee]

It's possible to be world champion in the old format on 10 points too, meaning it can be done without winning a single race

 

It's just as likely as someone winning the world championship in the current format without a single race.

 

What a joke

[Kevin Meynell]

It's possible to be world champion in the old format on 10 points too

 

You could technically win a traditional individual meeting with just 8 points (after a runoff), and without winning a race.

 

With respect to the SGP, unless you award for 1st place in a single GP, more points than for eleven 2nd places, then it will always be theoretically possible to have a world champion without actually winning a GP. Why is it actually necessary for world champion to win a GP anyway, if they're more consistent than any other rider over the course of the season?

Edited September 26, 2007 by Kevin Meynell

[Silver Bee]

You could technically win a traditional individual meeting with just 8 points (after a runoff), and without winning a race.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

They'd have to win the run-off though

[sancho]

it will always be theoretically possible to have a world champion without actually winning a GP.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

YEP ask Mark Loram